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Old 04-05-2009, 09:38 AM   #1
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I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia.

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:48 AM   #2
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I have Knowshon over Beanie for a number of reasons.

I don't think we need another big guy who can get 4 yards, but will never threaten to take it deep.

We have no need for a guy who can't catch a ball to save his life.

Our offensive line is better at pass blocking than run blocking, so we need a runner who can make it happen on his own like Hillis does, I think Knowshon is better at that.

On the whole, I would prefer Donald Brown or Andre Brown to any of these 2.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:52 AM   #3
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I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia.

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.
Thats nice.

I think this has been discussed before.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:54 AM   #4
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Thats nice.

I think this has been discussed before.
Damn, I took you off iggy to read this. I knew it would be a mistake.
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Old 04-05-2009, 09:55 AM   #5
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Damn, I took you off iggy to read this. I knew it would be a mistake.

Id rather you have me on. That way I dont have to see your worthless replies.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:48 AM   #6
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I would rather have Beanie. Let me start off by saying that I am naturally a little biased and have not watched a tremoundous amount of film on Moreno. I've seen his highlights on Youtube, but that is about it. People naturally pick on the Big Ten and point out the terrible D's, Moreno was held to 62 yards on 23 carries against Mich St. in their bowl game. Beanie ran for 140 yards on 31 carries against Mich St. Beanie torched Michigan for 3 years and you make think that their D is terrible, but he has racked up yards against Alan Branch, Leon Hall, Lamar Woodley, Shawn Crable, Tim Jamison, Terrance Taylor, Will Johnson and Brandon Graham. All guys who will play in the NFL. Also, Beanie played VERY WELL against a tough LSU defense in the national championship game from a few years ago.

The only real knock on Beanie is his durability and at his size, I'd worry about the hammy getting pulled on a regular basis. Also, I've heard rumblings here in the Columbus area that he doesn't like to practice. I can say that Beanie is bigger, faster, in my opinion has better feet, will be better at picking up first downs in short yardage situations and is a homerun threat. Moreno looks to be more comfortable as a receiver, but then again, OSU doesn't throw too many passed to their RB's. I don't want either at 12, maybe 18 now that we will need to have a better run game.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:50 AM   #7
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For once I agree with Rohirrim.

Mayock has Knowshon as his top RB. I heard the same thing from another source, who thinks Moreno is even a better prospect than AP.


Remember, the kid is only a sophomore.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:51 AM   #8
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No love for Shonn Greene in the second? USe the first two picks on D, then take Greene, he fights, he produces, he gets better as the game goes along, he scores.

Greene had more 100 yard rushing games, and more TD's. And, watching replays, he made more things happen "one his own" than either of the other guys.

Take the production, take the fighter, vote for Pedro... I mean Shonn Greene.
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:54 AM   #9
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This message is hidden because lex is on your ignore list.

I personally think that the SEC is much better defensively than the Big 10
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:03 PM   #10
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Wells has better speed. He's stronger, runs with good pad level, has great vision but also has great feet in the hole (for anyone let alone someone that weighs 235), he has an amazing stiff arm, and he was at his best against the best competition. I thinik the only big game he didnt do well in may have been the Florida NC game when Florida took away their run by jumping on them early. Moreno has better lateral movement and is maybe a little better leaper but he doesnt present the combination Wells does. Wells is like a boxer who can pound the body but as soon as theres the opening, delivers an uppercut for a knockout. Both are good backs but Wells is an overall better package.
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Old 04-05-2009, 01:55 PM   #11
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I didn't see the games, but the stats support your big game at LSU. He averaged an amazing 7.8 yards per carry. However, he averaged 4.0 against South Carolina, 3.8 vs Alabama, 3.7 vs Tennesee, 3.8 vs Florida. For anyone who has watched the tape, what is a 1st round rb with a very talented O line and a possible #1 pick qb keeping the defense honest doing with such lackluster stats against the best competition (minus LSU).

For those interested, Wells had one game averaging less then 4.2 yards per carry, a miserable 2.5 vs Penn St. He did face lesser competition, but he was focused on by the defenses more then Moreno, and I think its an easy argument that Moreno had a better supporting cast on offense.

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Old 04-05-2009, 01:57 PM   #12
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i agree with lex. i take Wells over Moreno every time. and if we don't take Wells i would prefer we grab Jennings in the 2nd or hope he is there in the 3rd
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:55 PM   #13
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While I think Knowshon Moreno is very talented, I would choose Beanie Wells over him for the Broncos.

That said, I would most prefer taking LeSean McCoy with our 2nd round pick and use our first round picks on other positions.
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Old 04-05-2009, 02:57 PM   #14
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This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=534150
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Old 04-05-2009, 03:15 PM   #15
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This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=534150
That was a good article. Much better then the usual analysis in the media. The knocks on Wells don't bother me since he is going to be part of a rotation (Hillis and the 3rd down back at the least), so I don't think taking it easy on plays is going to come up unless he turns out incredible and we are having him take almost all the runs. As far as how physical he is, he is not a Hillis runner but we have one so that's fine. He is plenty physical with the secondary and plenty fast to get to the secondary. If after two good looks Turner decides he is worth a first I will be very excited to get him. If he decides not to I will trust that evaluation also.

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Old 04-05-2009, 03:40 PM   #16
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I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia.

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.

Good analysis especially agree with the part about Beanie being similar to Hillis. I think Wells will be a very good, maybe even great, RB in the NFL... but I'm not sure we need another of his type as you stated.

What's your take on Percy Harvin? Could he fill that Reggie Bush type of role. Maybe a more explosive version of Kevin Faulk!?! The only thing I question is his ability to recognize the blitz and pickup a LB to save the QB's 6. IF he can fill that role on 3rd downs you have to put him near the top of your list for #18. Defense not withstanding, he's a sure fire playmaker that can play the slot immediately. He can also be that smaller change of pace guy at RB. Very dynamic... but not very smart.
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Old 04-05-2009, 05:56 PM   #17
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They are both very talented runners but I think Wells' style is much better suited to our offense - more of a downhill straight-ahead runner. Will not lose yardage and will consistently move the pile. What makes him special is he still has great speed. That also makes him different from Hillis. Moreno is more of a lateral, make-you-miss kind of runner from what I have seen. I see more risk of negative plays and less willingness to just pound out the 3-4 yard gains.
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Old 04-05-2009, 05:57 PM   #18
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pass on both
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:14 PM   #19
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I didn't see the games, but the stats support your big game at LSU. He averaged an amazing 7.8 yards per carry. However, he averaged 4.0 against South Carolina, 3.8 vs Alabama, 3.7 vs Tennesee, 3.8 vs Florida. For anyone who has watched the tape, what is a 1st round rb with a very talented O line and a possible #1 pick qb keeping the defense honest doing with such lackluster stats against the best competition (minus LSU).

For those interested, Wells had one game averaging less then 4.2 yards per carry, a miserable 2.5 vs Penn St. He did face lesser competition, but he was focused on by the defenses more then Moreno, and I think its an easy argument that Moreno had a better supporting cast on offense.
To be fair, Stafford was a much bigger passing threat and kept defenses from loading up against the run. Meanwhile, Pryor was more effective as a runner so Wells had to face teams that were loading up against the run more. And with that in mind, Wells' APC only went down .1 from the year before. I dont really think the Big Ten is THAT bad at stopping the run...theyre bigger issue is having athletes in the passing game.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:26 PM   #20
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This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn...c.php?t=534150
I dont agree with his take on Wells. Wells played with injury in both of the past two seasons yet still was productive. There may have been times he was a little hindered by injury but Ive seen him play with strength plenty of times. I agree that if you look at him when he's playing against, say, Texas or LSU, there is a huge difference in how he plays against, say, someone like Purdue. But as someone said, even with the injury this past season there was only one time where he didnt have higher than a 4.2 YPC. I think at the worst, Wells will be a very good running back for Denver and at his best, he will be great. I think he has the highest floor and the highest ceiling.

Im not at all sold on Brown since he played in the big east.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:28 PM   #21
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To be fair, Stafford was a much bigger passing threat and kept defenses from loading up against the run. Meanwhile, Pryor was more effective as a runner so Wells had to face teams that were loading up against the run more. And with that in mind, Wells' APC only went down .1 from the year before. I dont really think the Big Ten is THAT bad at stopping the run...theyre bigger issue is having athletes in the passing game.
Yeah, I agree. I think Moreno looks unbelievable in his highlight films, but those stats with the offense he had makes me think he is very likely to struggle in the NFL, and will be at best inconsistent, at worst he will be putting up that 3 yard a carry average every week.
Wells is not a sure thing, but I think the risk is more along the lines of injuries, overuse, or bad fits rather then flat out inability to deal with the NFL.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:34 PM   #22
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Yeah, I agree. I think Moreno looks unbelievable in his highlight films, but those stats with the offense he had makes me think he is very likely to struggle in the NFL, and will be at best inconsistent, at worst he will be putting up that 3 yard a carry average every week.
Wells is not a sure thing, but I think the risk is more along the lines of injuries, overuse, or bad fits rather then flat out inability to deal with the NFL.
I think he would be a great fit for Denver. But I agree with what you say about injuries/overuse. But thats any RB. But in any case, we should rotate guys in from time to time. Where RBs really seem to hit walls is when you have them carry the ball up around 400 carries. I think if we keep Wells or whoever around 250-300 carries, that would probably be best in allowing them to stay healthy and have a bigger season in their 2nd year. I think if used right, Wells could easily have 1400-1600 yards and average over 6.0 per carry, especially if the passing game does its part.
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:48 PM   #23
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I think he would be a great fit for Denver. But I agree with what you say about injuries/overuse. But thats any RB. But in any case, we should rotate guys in from time to time. Where RBs really seem to hit walls is when you have them carry the ball up around 400 carries. I think if we keep Wells or whoever around 250-300 carries, that would probably be best in allowing them to stay healthy and have a bigger season in their 2nd year. I think if used right, Wells could easily have 1400-1600 yards and average over 6.0 per carry, especially if the passing game does its part.
I think so too, although it depends on McDaniels trusting the cutback scheme throughout the season. Mix his time with Hillis/Torain/whoever, put in a 3rd down back on obvious passing downs, and Wells becomes pretty low risk/high reward to me.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:01 AM   #24
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Wells has better speed. He's stronger, runs with good pad level, has great vision but also has great feet in the hole (for anyone let alone someone that weighs 235), he has an amazing stiff arm, and he was at his best against the best competition. I thinik the only big game he didnt do well in may have been the Florida NC game when Florida took away their run by jumping on them early. Moreno has better lateral movement and is maybe a little better leaper but he doesnt present the combination Wells does. Wells is like a boxer who can pound the body but as soon as theres the opening, delivers an uppercut for a knockout. Both are good backs but Wells is an overall better package.
I would agree that, as a pure runner, Wells is a notch above Moreno, but it isn't by a landslide. What you ignore here, and where I think Moreno's value exceeds Wells', is the receiving dimension Moreno brings to the table. In some offenses, that dimension might not be enough to put Moreno over the top, but McDaniels' offense goes to the RBs a great deal in the passing game. Wells got virtually no experience at all as a receiver at OSU. I think for our offense, Moreno is the better fit.
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:37 AM   #25
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I would agree that, as a pure runner, Wells is a notch above Moreno, but it isn't by a landslide. What you ignore here, and where I think Moreno's value exceeds Wells', is the receiving dimension Moreno brings to the table. In some offenses, that dimension might not be enough to put Moreno over the top, but McDaniels' offense goes to the RBs a great deal in the passing game. Wells got virtually no experience at all as a receiver at OSU. I think for our offense, Moreno is the better fit.
If you had to take a RB knowing DENs needs as of right now, where and who would you take a RB?
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