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Old 03-17-2009, 08:52 PM   #1
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Default Here's the Scenario, Lets hear the opinions.

I want to have a good discussion here, not a wild inflammatory emotional discussion, but one that looks at things (hypothetically).

Here's the scenario: Scheffler is gone, Cutler is gone, BMarsh gets suspended 4 games to start the season. OK, now in return for Scheff and Cut, we get [decent qb inserted here], a first and a second round pick. We turn the first and second round picks into defensive starters. Assume one is a good starter, the other is a good rotational guy. Both on the front seven in need areas.

Now I have seen comments that if we lose Cutler we will be set back [insert number of years] but really, do you think that honestly? Here's my thinking. See, Denver has one of the best pass protecting offensive lines in teh country, plus even though we went through 7 RBs last year, ALL of them were effective. Some more than others but all WERE effective, Bates just didnt use them enough to get into a flow. We have Royal and Stokely and Graham + RB + decent QB. Teams have won with a lot less than that, provided their defense and special teams didnt screw them. Now we have already improved our secondary considerably IMO. We arent sure how good the front seven is going to be because well, we really dont know if its going to be a 4-3, 3-4 or some sort of hybrid from the get go. We also dont know who is going to play where. What we DO know is that our defensive coaching in the front seven has improved EVERYWHERE. We got some guys a lot of us think could do well provided they had good coaching (Thomas, Moss, maybe even Crowder) and we got some positional people that may be able to fill in gaps and maintain their responsibilities with better coaching.

Now, we do have a new offensive system and a new defensive system and a brutal schedule this year. Will we really be "set back" a decade from a Cutler trade? I dont think so. I think we are going to have another rebuilding year here but then my mindset hadnt changed even before we fired Shanny and kept Cutler.

With Shanny, we were keeping the status quo on offense, defense, and special teams. Offensively we were average at scoring. And after the scripted plays in MOST games, we were downright awful. Defensively we were a mess and not going to improve at all. Special Teams was never going to be fixed with Shanny, period.

Then Shanny and all his cronies got sh*t canned, and now all of a sudden we have a new defensive scheme again, but a sh*tton better coaches. We also have a new offense but we still have Cutler and the potential for the offense to increase right? Well, The recent scandalous activities (regardless of who is to blame, this isnt about that. We are where we are at the moment and at this point it no longer matters who is at fault), Cutler is probably not going to be a Bronco next year. Now, even if Cutler stays I still think we are in for some growing pains in the offense as Cutler has to learn it, buy into it and play within himself. Defense has to adjust to the changes and build a chemistry and the coaching staff itself has to built their own chemistry.

So we can assume that we are going to be in for a down year. Regardless of circumstances IMO, we are going to be in a down year. the question is, how long will it last? I think, if we make some good defensive pickups in the draft and get a decent enough QB out of the trade (Im telling you, a Schaub type QB could do well in McDs system, we dont NEED a strong arm for this system, its just a bonus to have it), then we really wont be all that put back. If we get a decent QB in the trade with Cutler (whoever it is, just decent enough, Campbell, maybe Quinn, Garcia, someone that would be a stop gap or replacement who knows) and snag a QB like Graham Harrell in the draft this year, we might be set.

I dont think things are nearly as dire as some are making them out to be. I think a lot of the angst going on here is people are upset because they like Cutler (or more importantly, his arm strength) and are emotionally tied to him. Im not. He hasnt been here long enough or done enough amazing things for me to be that way. Im not the norm, I understand, it took me about 7 years to really appreciate Rod Smith and I dont generally get attached to players until after they sign a new contract or an extension. Portis taught me that

Anyway, I just wanted some rational discussion which excludes SoCal, spdirty and any of the other irrational morons plaguing this site recently. I dont mind a dissenting opinion here, its about where the team is headed in my scenario and really if things are as dire as some make it out to be.

What I would like people to not do: No coach name calling. Its childish and he isnt going anywhere, deal with it. No bringing up whose fault this whole fiasco belongs to because its irrelevant to THIS conversation. Keep it logical, rational and try to back up your points. I promise if you do this I wont bash the **** out of you

K, thanks
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:02 PM   #2
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the Broncos can afford to lose cutler....they've been stuck on stupid for 10 years while rotating qb's every three years.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #3
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the Broncos can afford to lose cutler....they've been stuck on stupid for 10 years while rotating qb's every three years.
Can or cant? And why or why not? I mean, any douche can write a single sentence man. You didnt follow my rules milita. Thats ****ing gay.

I think we got unstuck from stupid when we fired Shanny to be honest. The last 10 years he was the ONLY common denominator of mediocrity.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #4
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Keep it logical, rational and try to back up your points.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good luck with that.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:06 PM   #5
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Good luck with that.
Well that certainly helps doesnt it. Cock munch.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:06 PM   #6
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The more of this that comes out, the more my hatred is slowly shifting from McDipsht to bowlen.

But I expect nothing less than 9-7 from the miracleworkers next year. No down year should be necessary after the "rat" went 8-8 with worse defensive players than we have now and the same offensive players currently on the roster except for maybe PJ Pope and a few other scraglers that weren't important.

So therefore, if we are in for a "down" year (i e worse than 8-8) then that means the wonderful braintrust at dove valley either arent the great coaches we think they are or they flat ****ed up the talent that we had to bring us to an 8-8 record.

So, this talk of a "down year" needs to be thrown in the shltter. I say 9-7 or bust.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:08 PM   #7
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Can or cant? And why or why not? I mean, any douche can write a single sentence man. You didnt follow my rules milita. Thats ****ing gay.

I think we got unstuck from stupid when we fired Shanny to be honest. The last 10 years he was the ONLY common denominator of mediocrity.
I answered all your questions with one sentance....I didn't know you needed a love letter.

fag
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:09 PM   #8
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The more of this that comes out, the more my hatred is slowly shifting from McDipsht to bowlen.

But I expect nothing less than 9-7 from the miracleworkers next year. No down year should be necessary after the "rat" went 8-8 with worse defensive players than we have now and the same offensive players currently on the roster except for maybe PJ Pope and a few other scraglers that weren't important.

So therefore, if we are in for a "down" year (i e worse than 8-8) then that means the wonderful braintrust at dove valley either arent the great coaches we think they are or they flat ****ed up the talent that we had to bring us to an 8-8 record.

So, this talk of a "down year" needs to be thrown in the shltter. I say 9-7 or bust.
Our schedule was favorable last year. This year not so much. Also a big shift in paradigm this year, not just defensively, but offensively as well. Entirely new playbook on both sides of the ball and a crapton of turnover and you are expecting 9-7?

And you dont think that is unrealistic? Considering we are going to be facing no less than 8 perennial playoff teams + rivals?
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:11 PM   #9
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Well that certainly helps doesnt it. Cock munch.
You're asking the impossible.

Exhibit A:

Quote:
Originally Posted by spdirty View Post
The more of this that comes out, the more my hatred is slowly shifting from McDipsht to bowlen.

But I expect nothing less than 9-7 from the miracleworkers next year. No down year should be necessary after the "rat" went 8-8 with worse defensive players than we have now and the same offensive players currently on the roster except for maybe PJ Pope and a few other scraglers that weren't important.

So therefore, if we are in for a "down" year (i e worse than 8-8) then that means the wonderful braintrust at dove valley either arent the great coaches we think they are or they flat ****ed up the talent that we had to bring us to an 8-8 record.

So, this talk of a "down year" needs to be thrown in the shltter. I say 9-7 or bust.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:13 PM   #10
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Our schedule was favorable last year. This year not so much. Also a big shift in paradigm this year, not just defensively, but offensively as well. Entirely new playbook on both sides of the ball and a crapton of turnover and you are expecting 9-7?

And you dont think that is unrealistic? Considering we are going to be facing no less than 8 perennial playoff teams + rivals?
I expect improvement over last year...to take a step forward...is that too much to ask?
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:14 PM   #11
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You're asking the impossible.

Exhibit A:
Whats funny is I excplicity excluded that douche and SoCal from responding I guess you are right. Rational, logical and Broncos fans dont mix.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:14 PM   #12
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I expect improvement over last year...to take a step forward...is that too much to ask?
Apparently not for you.

Personally, considering the changes that were made, I think it is.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:17 PM   #13
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I think 5 wins is a realistic expectation. We'll split vs oak, sweep KC (grudge match w/ Cassel & McD), and win a couple of other random games here and there - not based on anything we did well, but on the other team being unlucky.

Realistically, I'm not convinced that we are significantly better than Detroit w/o QB play.

DET D < DEN D (slightly)
DET RB > DEN RB
Calvin > Brandon
Royal>McDonald or whoever
Den O-line >> DET O-line
QB - ?
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:18 PM   #14
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Whats funny is I excplicity excluded that douche and SoCal from responding I guess you are right. Rational, logical and Broncos fans dont mix.
Always am.

pm'ed you, btw

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Old 03-17-2009, 09:21 PM   #15
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I think 5 wins is a realistic expectation. We'll split vs oak, sweep KC (grudge match w/ Cassel & McD), and win a couple of other random games here and there - not based on anything we did well, but on the other team being unlucky.

Realistically, I'm not convinced that we are significantly better than Detroit w/o QB play.

DET D < DEN D (slightly)
DET RB > DEN RB
Calvin > Brandon
Royal>McDonald or whoever
Den O-line >> DET O-line
QB - ?
Whatever you smoked, it was some good ****e!
zeveryone of those arrows goes the other way.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:23 PM   #16
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I don't know how long it will last. But in the scenario provided, I still think there will be an overall intermediate-to-long term setback. You have noted that we are basically giving up Cutler and Scheffler for a decent QB and one good defensive starter and a good rotational guy. I don't believe that, in this situation, the defense will be markedly improved merely because of that one quality front seven starter added to the mix (plus the rotational guy). Now, the combination of some of the folks we've brought in as defensive backs plus that extra guy might make it a halfway decent defense, but even if that were the case, the shots in the arm that may have been provided in the secondary are only short term in nature due to the ages of those guys (Dawkins, Hill, Goodman). If this is truly a long term question, then one cannot even look to those additions.

While it is true that we are among the very best (and quite possibly THE best) when it comes to pass protection, there is still a huge difference between an elite QB and a decent one. With great protection, an elite QB will ****ing destroy you, while a "decent" one will merely take advantage of you. It also should be noted that our offense looked radically different in the pass game itself (even with the protection) when Scheffler was out. He definitely opened up things more with the threat of screaming down the middle of the field and was one of the very best in terms of YPC. It has been argued and it probably will be argued in this thread that it would not matter if we lost that threat since it seems McDaniels offense does not really require a big time recieving TE to be effective. I don't really find that persuasive. As an initial matter, it is an indictment on the apparent inflexibility of that offense that they can't find a place for a big time TE. That suggests an inherent flaw in the offense. Sure, they've been successful without it, but that's only because they had a HOF QB, a super OL, a pretty good back and a pair of Pro Bowl WRs. If you have the best in the league at almost every other position, you can make up for not having a big time TE. That doesn't mean that you should therefore now tailor your offense to not having a big time TE, or at least not featuring one. I believe Scheffler has stated in comments that from what he has seen so far, they don't really feature it.

In any case, just purely in the abstract, it is not a good idea to be too WR-centric in your passing game. It would be better if there were credible threats at all the various positions. Now, we do have Hillis and he is most certainly a credible threat in the passing game coming out of the backfield, but there's a serious question as to how or if he'll be used in this scheme. I think there were some comments by McDaniels earlier (or an article about Hillis in this offense) that raised questions about that, I believe it was centered around the general premise that Hillis would have to fight for a "role" or something like that (although that might be taking it a bit far, I do not remember exactly...I do remember it wasnt the most positive sounding article of all time in this respect).

I just believe that the pure talent downgrade (overall, even though it crosses over both sides of the ball) between Cutler and Scheffler to a decent QB and an extra quality defensive starter plus a rotational guy is significant, especially given that the QB position itself is so important.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:24 PM   #17
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Whatever you smoked, it was some good ****e!
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The notation a < b means that a is less than b.
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:29 PM   #18
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to many words
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:34 PM   #19
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Iwill give it a shot , but I will call names ...........
First off Cutler is blowing this **** way out of proportion why ? he is listening to some Cork sucker named Bus , who is filling Cutlers blowing smoke up his ass , And mcD is telling 2 sides of one story ............so here is what we do , focus on Defense and getting power running game going , we get these 2 things , they greatly improve our chances of winning on the road ............. 10-6 maybe 9-7 ...........
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Old 03-17-2009, 09:40 PM   #20
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With or without Cutler, the chances of Denver going to the playoffs next year seemed to be slim. Basically, McDaniels is going to implement his offense, one in which playing within the system, hitting your checkdowns out of the backfield and clock management are integral. All things that Jay struggled with last year.

As much as some people will b**** and moan, McDaniels' offense is one that a smart, veteran QB with decent arm strength can run. Again, because of the emotional attachment to Jay, some forget that the offense McD runs doesn't require a QB to throw darts down the field. It requires a QB that can read defenses successfully, again one of Jay's weaker areas.

Another Orange Mane meltdown moment may also occur if he chooses to draft a Pats type RB in the first or second rounds (A possibility if we acquire a low first rounder in a Cutler deal).

I honestly, I think this team will be ok (7-9, 8-8 ish) next year if the following occurs:

1.) We bring in the (fill-in-the-blank) QB that Rock Chalk mentioned.
2.) We stop pretending that Ryan Torian is the reincarnation of Eric Dickerson and draft a true running back with one of the first day Cutler picks to pair with Hillis (preferably 2nd).
3.) The no. 12, and (fill in the blank 1st pick for Cutler) should be strickly the best availble front seven defensive players.
4.) Acquire another veteran rotational DT or two via free agency or trade to compete with draft picks.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:16 PM   #21
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Our schedule was favorable last year. This year not so much. Also a big shift in paradigm this year, not just defensively, but offensively as well. Entirely new playbook on both sides of the ball and a crapton of turnover and you are expecting 9-7?

And you dont think that is unrealistic? Considering we are going to be facing no less than 8 perennial playoff teams + rivals?
Look, I am seeing the roster we have right now. I see a defense who, personnel wise, is improved over last year. We have the 12th pick in the draft as well as I think 9 picks to improve this team. Of those 9 picks maybe 2 of them are defensive starters this year. Also look at the "improvement" in coaching and I think at least we should be competitive in almost every game we play.


You scenario though, looking at it logically, I see 6-10 at best, and flirting with 3-13, even though I dont think it should be unreasonable for fans to expect 9-7+.

Long term future I dont know. Nobody knows how far we will be set back. Depends on the personnel moves they make in the future regarding QB, defense, and wideout, since I expect 15 to be gone no matter what after next year. And I dont lay that on the personnel either.






And, am i emotionally tied to Cutler? You damn right I am. And I will continue to be until the day he proves me wrong. Since the day he was drafted, and last season we saw him just start to bloom. Incredible mistake I think it will be to trade him. Now if he refuses to show up for the mandatory shlt, that emotional tie I have for him will change. But for now, he is my quarterback and my strongest hope is for him to do great things for the team I love.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:26 PM   #22
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Alec,

I don't think the situation is dire at all. Nowhere near.

We've got one of, if not the best young offensive minds in the game. We also have a DC now with some great experience, including head coaching experience, which I feel like might be nice for a young head coach to have around.

Personnel-wise, our defense improved markedly with the simple SUBTRACTION of some liabilities, and the obvious additions of a guy like Westbrook and what he brings. I think this unit could step out on the field tomorrow, with no practice... and play better than that slop we've watched the past couple of seasons. Honestly.

You broke down the offense pretty well, and I wouldn't even be surprised to see us bolster the O-line even further in the draft, maybe bringing in a top G or C prospect to compete. We could have the makings of one of the best lines in the league for years if they continue to fortify there.

Our offensive weapons are solid, and I love the RB rotation as it shapes up. Remember, NE spreads the ball around... a lot. People love to rip Buckhalter or Jordan, but those guys will contribute. Write it down. You'll see them catching 8 yard passes, taking carries periodically, etc. Obviously, Hillis brings a tough, talented runner on first downs, if they choose to use him that way.

The way I see the QB situation is this... we weren't winning the SB next season anyway, so while I'd rather win more games... I also want there to be a plan in place. If ditching Cutler means we get some talent and picks in return to solidify this team so we're NOT the perennial 8-8 team we seemed liked over the past few years, I'm all for a rough season this coming year.

McDaniel showed what he can do with Cassel. I DO think Cassel is talented, but I think he benefitted enormously from the system, and yes... Moss and Welker. Still, whoever plays QB in Denver next year will be behind a great line and have some quality weapons at their disposal. The Marshall situation bares watching. If he's out any period of time, we need to get serious about a replacement. I love Tory Holt as a short-term fix in that role if he's still out there.

It's an exciting time to be a Broncos fan. You can sense the excitement from the players, even with Cutler's selfish routine he's pulling. You get the sense listening to these guys that they're pumped, and just about ready to tell Jay to go **** himself.

We're building something, now. Will it work? Who knows, but this isn't the yearly srcub-swapout we saw with Shanahan poo-pooing the defense every season. McDaniel came from an organization where both sides of the ball were taken seriously.... and a club that knew how to operate in free agency, where we had absolutely no clue what we were doing.

So, overall... there are reasons to believe a bumpy road lies in the immediate future, there are plenty of reasons to be excited about this team going forward.
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Old 03-17-2009, 10:59 PM   #23
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McD - Beginning to feel his offensive system is very overrated. A great coach will see what players he has and meld them into his existing system. McD seems to have a square peg with its round playbook and really hasn't shown any flexibility. It'll be telling if Denver's vaunted running game looks anything similar during preseason and early in the season.

I really hope Cutler stays on, but it's not looking that way.

The way I see it, McD will always be compared to the team that gets Cutler. If Cutler's new team does better with Cutler continuing to progress as a QB, McD will be gone in 1-2 yrs and the Broncos become the Bowie/Jordan of the NFL. If Cutlers new team is bad to mediocre, McD will get a 3 yr window unless the Broncos go 5-11 or worse.

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Old 03-18-2009, 02:55 AM   #24
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In any case, just purely in the abstract, it is not a good idea to be too WR-centric in your passing game. It would be better if there were credible threats at all the various positions. Now, we do have Hillis and he is most certainly a credible threat in the passing game coming out of the backfield, but there's a serious question as to how or if he'll be used in this scheme. I think there were some comments by McDaniels earlier (or an article about Hillis in this offense) that raised questions about that, I believe it was centered around the general premise that Hillis would have to fight for a "role" or something like that (although that might be taking it a bit far, I do not remember exactly...I do remember it wasnt the most positive sounding article of all time in this respect).
Just to address the Scheff/TE point, I'd say Ben Watson was a pretty serious threat when he was healthy. He put up some pretty solid numbers for a TE in a spread offense. Graham chipped in when he was there as well.
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Old 03-18-2009, 05:57 AM   #25
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Okay, trying to be objective given the scenario in this thread.

Trading for a Decent (as yet unnamed QB) and a first and a second round draft pick sounds less than tenable. We are probably looking at Brady Quin or Derek Anderson at best. Personally, I would just prefer draft picks, stick it out with Chris Simms this year and try to draft a franchise QB either this year or next year.

Now, if we can get one solid starter in the front seven, and a solid rotation guy out of the draft this year, I think it will help. But, I think this year is just too soon for a turn-around for our Defense. We are on our third defensive scheme and coordinator in as many years. Even with some quality guys coming in, I'm just not expecting a huge turn around on the Defensive side of the Ball this year. It takes time for players to gel in a new system and even if we are looking at significant upgrades personnel-wise, I just don't see these guys completely coming together until about mid-season.

Now, once mid-season hits, that is when I think we will begin to get a much better idea of what we do and do not have on defense. Optimistically, I'm looking for us to finish in about the mid-teens in most defensive categories. But, even if we finish lower than that, I will consider us heading in the right direction if we can finish the season stronger than we began it.

Offensive, I think our production is going to drop off in some ways and improve in others. I think our turn-over ratio is going to improve for a number of reasons. But I also think our third down conversion ratio is going to suffer incredibly. Its going to be an offense that stalls on a lot of drives but probably doesn't put its D in bad field position as often. Prater is going to really need to get it together, as I feel we are going to have to rely on his leg a lot more in the coming year. If he can get back into a grove, I think we have a chance to win 7-9 games. If he struggles, he may be looking at 5-6.

We probably split with Oakland and KC again, and are swept by San Diego once more. Indy and Baltimore are no go, and I think we will probably only pull 3-4 wins out of the Eastern Divisions. Toss in the fact that we will have the standard 2-3 victories this year than no one saw coming and I feel pretty confident in predicting a finish somewhere around 8-8.

Last edited by v2micca; 03-18-2009 at 05:59 AM..
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