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Old 03-15-2009, 01:42 PM   #1
TDmvp
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Default Defense win championships ... Or does it ... I say it's Franchise QB's

Ok ... so I keep hearing D win titles , D wins titles ... and i admit it can ...
But not very often ... i would say more then D's it is STUD Qbs ..
Most of the time they have a D in the top 15 , but rare a SUPER STAR D carries a mediocre Qb..

Yes D CAN win titles , and yes win need a BETTER D then we had last year to win one . But if you look back through history their isn't many teams that have won a title without a high profile QB and honestly there has only been like 5 super star D teams win a title in my life ... normally it is a good D with a franchise QB ..... so lets see...


January 20, 1980 Pittsburgh Steelers -Def.
January 25, 1981 Oakland Raiders
January 24, 1982 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 30, 1983 Washington Redskins
January 22, 1984 Los Angeles Raiders
January 20, 1985 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 26, 1986 Chicago Bears - Def.
January 25, 1987 New York Giants -Def.
January 31, 1988 Washington Redskins
January 22, 1989 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 28, 1990 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 27, 1991 New York Giants
January 26, 1992 Washington Redskins
January 31, 1993 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 30, 1994 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 29, 1995 San Francisco 49ers - Young
January 28, 1996 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 26, 1997 Green Bay Packers - Brett
January 25, 1998 Denver Broncos - Elway
January 31, 1999 Denver Broncos - Elway
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams - Kurt
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens - Def.
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots - Brady
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Def.
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots - Brady
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots - Brady
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts - Manning
February 3, 2008 New York Giants - Manning

so Yea it does , or CAN win titles ... But a franchise Qb is worth far more then you are giving them credit for and wins titles far more then a D.

Only a few of those have D's that was the show .... Most have future or current Hof QB's tho or guys that was a "franchise" guy.... Like Jay...
So sorry I'll take the studd Qb over the unknown ... Cause if you get Jay a top 15 D we will win titles ... If we lose him we won't win a title till we LUCK out again and get another guy near Jays talent ... 5 years at least...
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:43 PM   #2
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Well when we have one who is mentally capable to handle the NFL we will be set!
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:45 PM   #3
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Most of these are debatable. Roethlisberger is a Franchise QB, but in no way did he win those championships. Same with Eli Manning and Tom Brady's first title. Those old 49ers and Cowboys teams were also in the top 10 in Defense. The Year Brett Favre won the championship Green Bay's defense was #2 in the NFL.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:50 PM   #4
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i would catergorize 2001 NE as DEF/ST instead of QB...

Tom Brady wasn't asked to do much...he played within the offense and the DEF/ST made plays...

the best comparisons are recent not going back as far as you did because the game has changed too much...

2000 - DEF
2001 - DEF
2002 - DEF
2003 - QB
2004 - QB
2005 - DEF
2006 - QB
2007 - DEF
2008 - DEF

as you can see franchise QB isn't needed...

coaching is critical IMO...DEF & OFF lines are crucial...

we give (Simms) a great O-line with great receiving targets and a strong DEF and tell him to play within the offense of a QB friendly scheme...you don't think we can win with that formula?...
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:50 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Inkana7 View Post
Most of these are debatable. Roethlisberger is a Franchise QB, but in no way did he win those championships. Same with Eli Manning and Tom Brady's first title. Those old 49ers and Cowboys teams were also in the top 10 in Defense. The Year Brett Favre won the championship Green Bay's defense was #2 in the NFL.


agree with alot of this ... made the thread for the debate factor ... thought was good conversation and better then most going on the mane at the moment lol ... least it's not just a childlike mess lol .... but good points Ink...


BUT Eli had to make plays down the stretch to win and so did Ben in the second one .... and Tom kinda became the man in his first bowl win with that last drive ... old 49s and pack and boys did have top 10 ds tho.... yes ...
But their QB did do alot more then just care take ...
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:52 PM   #6
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Popps in 4....3....2.....1......
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDmvp View Post
agree with alot of this ... made the thread for the debate factor ... thought was good conversation and better then most going on the mane at the moment lol ... least it's not just a childlike mess lol .... but good points Ink...


BUT Eli had to make plays down the stretch to win and so did Ben in the second one .... and Tom kinda became the man in his first bowl win with that last drive ... old 49s and pack and boys did have top 10 ds tho.... yes ...
But their QB did do alot more then just care take ...
It's all about balance. You can't have one or the other. The Steelers don't win a damn thing and are competing for the AFC North cellar without their D, but they probably don't win the Super Bowl without Roethlisberger.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:55 PM   #8
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Looks to me like you need either the best qb, the best defense, or a combination of a really good defense and a really good qb.
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Old 03-15-2009, 01:57 PM   #9
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Defense tends to win more championships than franchise QB's. If you have a great offense that can score almost every possession, then yeah, I suppose defense isn't as important, but that is rare.

Broncos have not even had a decent defense in 3 years and we can see where that has gotten them.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDmvp View Post
Ok ... so I keep hearing D win titles , D wins titles ... and i admit it can ...
But not very often ... i would say more then D's it is STUD Qbs ..
Most of the time they have a D in the top 15 , but rare a SUPER STAR D carries a mediocre Qb..

Yes D CAN win titles , and yes win need a BETTER D then we had last year to win one . But if you look back through history their isn't many teams that have won a title without a high profile QB and honestly there has only been like 5 super star D teams win a title in my life ... normally it is a good D with a franchise QB ..... so lets see...


January 20, 1980 Pittsburgh Steelers -Def.
January 25, 1981 Oakland Raiders
January 24, 1982 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 30, 1983 Washington Redskins
January 22, 1984 Los Angeles Raiders
January 20, 1985 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 26, 1986 Chicago Bears - Def.
January 25, 1987 New York Giants -Def.
January 31, 1988 Washington Redskins
January 22, 1989 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 28, 1990 San Francisco 49ers - Montana
January 27, 1991 New York Giants
January 26, 1992 Washington Redskins
January 31, 1993 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 30, 1994 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 29, 1995 San Francisco 49ers - Young
January 28, 1996 Dallas Cowboys - Troy
January 26, 1997 Green Bay Packers - Brett
January 25, 1998 Denver Broncos - Elway
January 31, 1999 Denver Broncos - Elway
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams - Kurt
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens - Def.
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots - Brady
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Def.
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots - Brady
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots - Brady
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts - Manning
February 3, 2008 New York Giants - Manning

so Yea it does , or CAN win titles ... But a franchise Qb is worth far more then you are giving them credit for and wins titles far more then a D.

Only a few of those have D's that was the show .... Most have future or current Hof QB's tho or guys that was a "franchise" guy.... Like Jay...
So sorry I'll take the studd Qb over the unknown ... Cause if you get Jay a top 15 D we will win titles ... If we lose him we won't win a title till we LUCK out again and get another guy near Jays talent ... 5 years at least...
I agree....so where are we gonna get a franchise QB.....or a strong leader for that fact.....I dont see any crybaby,pot stirring, self absorbed, premadonnas on this list.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:03 PM   #11
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Well when we have one who is mentally capable to handle the NFL we will be set!
We do just ask around!

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Old 03-15-2009, 02:03 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Northman View Post
Popps in 4....3....2.....1......
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams - Kurt
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens - Def.
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots - Brady
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Def.
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots - Brady
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots - Brady
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts - Manning
February 3, 2008 New York Giants - Manning


Does anyone here actually believe that New York won that SB because of Eli? He was a role player. A great one, but a role player.

Since we won a SB last, only Warner and Manning could be cited as examples of QBs who were huge stat-guys, and Warner certainly wasn't a high first round pick. He was a lucky find.

Using Brady and/or Rothlisberger as examples is just insanity. Those teams are the best examples of defense and balance you're going to find. They just happened to develop QBs into stars that most people thought wouldn't be.

Anyone here think if Rothlisberger or Brady would have spent their careers in Cincinatti like Palmer... we'd be talking about them as "franchise" quarterbacks?

You build a champion by starting with defense, then developing an offensive line that can open up the running game and protect the quarterback.

Again, the simplest way to end this argument is...

FEW teams in history have won a championship with a great QB and an average defense.

MANY teams have won with a great defense/running game and an average QB.

You stay consistently powerful with the running game and your defense.

Think about it... hang all of your hope on a stat-QB, and if he goes down, you're ****ed.

Properly construct your team to compete in the playoffs, and you can sub in your back-up QB and still be competitive. (See New England.)
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:03 PM   #13
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Marino, Kelly, Warren Moon, Dan Fouts, Bernie Kosar, Boomer Esiason, Archie Manning, Fran Tarkenton, Drew Bledsoe, Ken Anderson, Randall Cunningham, Steve McNair.

Many "Franchise" QB's haven'y won the big one.

It takes both to get there. Every team wants that quarterback in place and build the rest of the team around him.

But again look at how many supposed "Franchise" quarterbacks have been drafted and just weren't ready or over hyped workout stars.

Sometimes you get a Elway,Marino, Kelly, then there are times you get David Carr, Joey Harrington,Tim Couch...
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:15 PM   #14
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Don't worry TD - you don't need a quality QB OR a top flight defense. You just need a know-nothing coach who is insists on trying to prove he has a bigger weiner-dog than anyone else in the organziation. Carry Bellicheat's jock for a couple years and that means automatic success. Just look at Weiss and Crennel and Mangini.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:21 PM   #15
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Well, if it falls at the feet of "stud quarterbacks", this one hasn't done the job. I'm not really buying that theory. One example off the top of my head is the Colts. Their defense came to play in the postseason, and it worked out for a Super Bowl win. You need all parts of a team halfway functioning to be successful...
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:22 PM   #16
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The other issue here is the definition of the word "franchise."

Few people would consider Rothlisberger a "franchise" quarterback, or at least they wouldn't have until a few weeks ago. When he was struggling last year, people were ready to write him off as a one-hit-wonder. But, he's got something in the thread of his personality that makes him a winner.

Franchise QBs don't to have pretty stats. They CAN, but it's not necessary.
Assuming a QB is a franchise QB because he has pretty stats or a big arm is just silly.

Drew Brees is a modern example of a guy who has both, imo. He's got a big arm, big stats... but he'd also run through walls to win. He's a team-first guy.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:23 PM   #17
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Well, if it falls at the feet of "stud quarterbacks", this one hasn't done the job. I'm not really buying that theory. One example off the top of my head is the Colts. Their defense came to play in the postseason, and it worked out for a Super Bowl win. You need all parts of a team halfway functioning to be successful...
The Colts D got extremely hot at the right time, just like Arizona's D.

I still think that Colts team was the worst SB team of my lifetime. I don't remember any worse.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:23 PM   #18
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Gotta disagree about Eli. He is not a Franchise QB, the D won the Giants that SB.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:25 PM   #19
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Montana's 49 teams had something like 16 Pro-bowlers yearly, most of which were on defense.

Dallas of the 90s was a strong offensive team with a GREAT defense.

Green Bay, defense.

St Louis Rams? Got all the credit for offensive explosion but also had a kick ass defense that year.

A franchise QB helps, but a top 10/top 5 defense will win you more championships.

And as someone mentioned, I dont seen any whining crying babies among the QBs listed either.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by TDmvp View Post
January 20, 1980 Pittsburgh Steelers -Def. 5th Defense
January 25, 1981 Oakland Raiders 10th ranked D
January 24, 1982 San Francisco 49ers - Montana 2nd ranked D
January 30, 1983 Washington Redskins 1st ranked D
January 22, 1984 Los Angeles Raiders 13th ranked D
January 20, 1985 San Francisco 49ers Montana 1st ranked D
January 26, 1986 Chicago Bears - Def. 1st ranked D
January 25, 1987 New York Giants -Def. 2nd ranked D
January 31, 1988 Washington Redskins 6th ranked D
January 22, 1989 San Francisco 49ers Montana 8th ranked D
January 28, 1990 San Francisco 49ers Montana 3rd Ranked D
January 27, 1991 New York Giants 1st Ranked D
January 26, 1992 Washington Redskins 2nd ranked D
January 31, 1993 Dallas Cowboys Troy 5th Defense
January 30, 1994 Dallas Cowboys Troy 2nd Defense
January 29, 1995 San Francisco 49ers Young 6th Defense
January 28, 1996 Dallas Cowboys Troy 3rd defense
January 26, 1997 Green Bay Packers Brett 1st Defense
January 25, 1998 Denver Broncos Elway 6th defense
January 31, 1999 Denver Broncos Elway 8th defense
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams Kurt 4th defese
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens Def. 1st Defense
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots Brady 6th defense
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Def. 1st defense
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots Brady 1st defense
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots Brady 2nd defense
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers Ben 3rd defense
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts Manning 23rd!
February 3, 2008 New York Giants Manning 17th
Man, this has been done to death at this point. No one has ever said that having a great QB doesn't help win championships. It's that defense is a BETTER indicator. Above I've listed the defensive rankings of all those championship teams.

Seriously, since 1979 only 3 teams have won a championship without at least a top 10 scoring defense. Balance is probably the most important factor, but if someone is arguing whether it's better to have some sort of mythical creation at QB (who getsd far too much credit and blame) or a top defense...you take defense every time.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:50 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
January 30, 2000 St. Louis Rams - Kurt
January 28, 2001 Baltimore Ravens - Def.
February 3, 2002 New England Patriots - Brady
January 26, 2003 Tampa Bay Buccaneers - Def.
February 1, 2004 New England Patriots - Brady
February 6, 2005 New England Patriots - Brady
February 5, 2006 Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben
February 4, 2007 Indianapolis Colts - Manning
February 3, 2008 New York Giants - Manning


Does anyone here actually believe that New York won that SB because of Eli? He was a role player. A great one, but a role player.

Since we won a SB last, only Warner and Manning could be cited as examples of QBs who were huge stat-guys, and Warner certainly wasn't a high first round pick. He was a lucky find.

Using Brady and/or Rothlisberger as examples is just insanity. Those teams are the best examples of defense and balance you're going to find. They just happened to develop QBs into stars that most people thought wouldn't be.

Anyone here think if Rothlisberger or Brady would have spent their careers in Cincinatti like Palmer... we'd be talking about them as "franchise" quarterbacks?

You build a champion by starting with defense, then developing an offensive line that can open up the running game and protect the quarterback.

Again, the simplest way to end this argument is...

FEW teams in history have won a championship with a great QB and an average defense.

MANY teams have won with a great defense/running game and an average QB.

You stay consistently powerful with the running game and your defense.

Think about it... hang all of your hope on a stat-QB, and if he goes down, you're ****ed.

Properly construct your team to compete in the playoffs, and you can sub in your back-up QB and still be competitive. (See New England.)
I wouldnt use Ben and Eli as a example that i can agree with. Their defenses are pretty damn good. But all the other QB's most certainly played a much larger role in their success. While their defenses were good it wasnt the crutch like a Bmore or Tampa Bay.
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Old 03-15-2009, 02:52 PM   #22
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We do just ask around!

You little pot stirrer. Do I need to beat you down right handed again. Just don't tell Punisher, that got creepy.
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Old 03-15-2009, 03:57 PM   #23
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Most of these are debatable. Roethlisberger is a Franchise QB, but in no way did he win those championships. Same with Eli Manning and Tom Brady's first title. Those old 49ers and Cowboys teams were also in the top 10 in Defense. The Year Brett Favre won the championship Green Bay's defense was #2 in the NFL.
i agree Defense won the a title in 05, but this year he was clutch on that final drive and was responsible for the win.
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Old 03-15-2009, 03:59 PM   #24
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You little pot stirrer. Do I need to beat you down right handed again. Just don't tell Punisher, that got creepy.
Don't be shy he likes you.
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Old 03-15-2009, 04:12 PM   #25
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i agree Defense won the a title in 05, but this year he was clutch on that final drive and was responsible for the win.

The Cardinal defense he went up against was ranked 19th during the year.
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