The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-13-2009, 01:31 AM   #1
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default Josh McDaniels made trash look like gold--fact

For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 03-13-2009, 01:34 AM   #2
Taco John
24/7 Broncos
 
Taco John's Avatar
 
Peddling the Orange Addiction

Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 50,274

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Peyton Manning
Default

There should be little doubt that McDaniels did a fine job with Cassel. Are there really people who are saying differently?
Taco John is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:36 AM   #3
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default

Oh, there are, Taco. Some call Cassel pure trash while simultaneously calling for McDs job. Look if you don't believe me. It's all over the board.
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:36 AM   #4
watermock
"Hoodie Jr"
 
watermock's Avatar
 
"Hug me!"

Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Hot Springs, Ouachitah
Posts: 76,814
Default

But didnt we need a durable RB and adequate defense?

Didn't we allready have the #2 offense despite no running game, especially late?

Wasn't the plan to fix the defense?
watermock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:38 AM   #5
BroncoInferno
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 13,227
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by watermock View Post
But didnt we need a durable RB and adequate defense?

Didn't we allready have the #2 offense despite no running game, especially late?

Wasn't the plan to fix the defense?
Actually, no, we didn't have the #2 offense. Our offense was #16--i.e. medicore--in scoring, which is the stat that matters.
BroncoInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:40 AM   #6
Popps
TEAM FIRST.
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,827
Default

It is sort of funny that some of the argument around here seems to be that McDaniels is a buffoon, AND ALSO... Cassel is a back-up quality player.

Well, which is it?

If you watched the Patriots this year after Cassel took over, they were incredibly effective. They should have been in the playoffs, obviously.

I'm excited about this new regime. Sue me.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 01:41 AM   #7
GreatBronco16
!!!TEAM!!!
 
GreatBronco16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Bama Baby
Posts: 6,265

Adopt-a-Bronco:
The Defense
Default

We could also say that we were #2 in yards because our defense was so bad, that they didn't stay on the field long enough holding the other team. So the offense had more chances to put up even more yards. But yards mean dick if you aren't matching it with points.
GreatBronco16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 02:05 AM   #8
anon
Seasoned Veteran
 

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 290
Default

If we traded Cutler for #1, #20, and Cassel, we would have a decent QB with a coach who knows how to best use his abilities, our awesome O-line, our running game intact (coaches and personnel retained), and our solid receivers. And we would have had 2 first round draft picks to address our numerous holes on defense. How is that so terrible?

And I don't see anybody saying that Cutler is not a good player. He has lots of potential, all the physical tools, but needs to work on his poise and turnovers (probably related). I'm happy that he's (hopefully) still here, but if the trade described above had happened, I would have been surprised but still excited.
anon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 02:08 AM   #9
extralife
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,749
Default

This is not a very logical argument. Just to be a dick.

Cassel is probably a mediocre player that was put in a position to excel, coached well, and put up slightly above mediocre stats.
extralife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 02:13 AM   #10
cutthemdown
A verbis ad verbera
 
cutthemdown's Avatar
 
Zimm to HOF

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Long Beach
Posts: 35,592
Default

Getting a bunch of picks and Cassel was an interesting chance and I'm not surprised Mcdaniels looked at it. At this point I don't see any chance Cutler get's traded.

I do think Mcdaniels is going to field a good offense with adept play calling.

Defense, well , we will see.
cutthemdown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:01 AM   #11
Blueflame
Miss Congeniality
 
Blueflame's Avatar
 
Welcome to Peyton's Place

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in my cups... lol
Posts: 33,528

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Randy Gradishar
Default

The McD fanbois should realize that Cassel had 10 other guys on the field with him. And a not-30th-ranked defense....

McD is an above-average OC. This does not mean he'll be an above-average HC (see: Norv Turner)
Blueflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:09 AM   #12
arghemtee
say "NO!" to tyranny
 
FIRE MCDIP****

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 148

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
It is sort of funny that some of the argument around here seems to be that McDaniels is a buffoon, AND ALSO... Cassel is a back-up quality player.

Well, which is it?

If you watched the Patriots this year after Cassel took over, they were incredibly effective. They should have been in the playoffs, obviously.

I'm excited about this new regime. Sue me.
Wrong. I don't believe anyone is questioning his ability to coach at the OC level (maybe HC), but we're questioning his decision-making in player personnel.
arghemtee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:14 AM   #13
eddie mac
Ireland's No1 Bronco
 
eddie mac's Avatar
 
Eddie Mac 87 gone but never forgott

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 16,818

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Rod Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by extralife View Post
This is not a very logical argument. Just to be a dick.

Cassel is probably a mediocre player that was put in a position to excel, coached well, and put up slightly above mediocre stats.
So then Cutler's stats were slightly above mediocre as well because Cassel matched him stat for stat last season aside from yardage because Denver threw the ball far more and that with Matt ending on his ass 47 times via sack compared to Cutler's 11.

Do you see much comparison with the offensive lines in this either

Cassel 516-327-3693-21-11 89.4 QB rating sacked 47 times
Cutler 616-384-4526-25-18 86.0 QB rating sacked 11 times
eddie mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:37 AM   #14
crazyhorse
All Motor!!
 
crazyhorse's Avatar
 
You can only hope to contain me

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie mac View Post
So then Cutler's stats were slightly above mediocre as well because Cassel matched him stat for stat last season aside from yardage because Denver threw the ball far more and that with Matt ending on his ass 47 times via sack compared to Cutler's 11.

Do you see much comparison with the offensive lines in this either

Cassel 516-327-3693-21-11 89.4 QB rating sacked 47 times
Cutler 616-384-4526-25-18 86.0 QB rating sacked 11 times
Plus Cassel isn't a head case/locker room cancer.
crazyhorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:50 AM   #15
Natedog24
Ring of Famer
 
Natedog24's Avatar
 
Win The Day

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,203

Adopt-a-Bronco:
TJ Ward
Default

Yeah I don't think anyone is debating whether McDaniels was a good offensive coordinator/QB coach or not. This just makes me more depressed that JC and McD aren't on the same page because I would love to see what McDaniels could do with Cutler and his freakish raw athleticism.
Natedog24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:51 AM   #16
hambone13
Ring of Famer
 
Salty Lurking Vet

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 2,078

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default Not so Precious

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Plus Cassel isn't a head case/locker room cancer.

I've always loved the quality of your posts. No really, you're a real gem....
hambone13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 03:55 AM   #17
crazyhorse
All Motor!!
 
crazyhorse's Avatar
 
You can only hope to contain me

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hambone13 View Post
I've always loved the quality of your posts. No really, you're a real gem....

I'm willing to debate the issue if you feel something I've said is inaccurate.

Or are you just pouting?
crazyhorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:09 AM   #18
hambone13
Ring of Famer
 
Salty Lurking Vet

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 2,078

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default Accuracy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
I'm willing to debate the issue if you feel something I've said is inaccurate.

Or are you just pouting?
Accuracy is relative. Let's just start with the "head case" comment.....

Help me understand how Jay Cutler is a "Head Case". I will conceed:

1. He's Cocky with the fans
2. He's not a media darling
3. He could be handling the current situation better

Maybe you could enlighten me on how he's a "Head Case"........?
hambone13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:23 AM   #19
crazyhorse
All Motor!!
 
crazyhorse's Avatar
 
You can only hope to contain me

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hambone13 View Post
Accuracy is relative. Let's just start with the "head case" comment.....

Help me understand how Jay Cutler is a "Head Case". I will conceed:

1. He's Cocky with the fans
2. He's not a media darling
3. He could be handling the current situation better

Maybe you could enlighten me on how he's a "Head Case"........?
Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.
crazyhorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:39 AM   #20
hambone13
Ring of Famer
 
Salty Lurking Vet

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 2,078

Adopt-a-Bronco:
None
Default You make my case...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.
You're too much. Champ Baily held out and demanded a trade that ultimately made him a Bronco. I guess he's a "Head Case" too.

For you to compare Jay to TO is a great justification for not debating with you. Because our definitions obviously differ so vastly it would be meaningless. TO is a true head case. I agree as do many Doctors of Psychology. I couldn't have used a better example as a means to dignify my definition and more importantly why Jay is not a "head case".

Please carry on your position with those willing to dwell and agree with your sophomoric observations.

Last edited by hambone13; 03-13-2009 at 04:47 AM..
hambone13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:43 AM   #21
Blueflame
Miss Congeniality
 
Blueflame's Avatar
 
Welcome to Peyton's Place

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in my cups... lol
Posts: 33,528

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Randy Gradishar
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyhorse View Post
Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.
If he shows up Monday, your argument goes out the window, y'know....
Blueflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:49 AM   #22
crazyhorse
All Motor!!
 
crazyhorse's Avatar
 
You can only hope to contain me

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueflame View Post
If he shows up Monday, your argument goes out the window, y'know....
That's not true.

His actions up to this point have shown his position. It's not like this is the 1st signs of a potential problem. This is one of the most publicized. His moody behavior and his inablity to control it is obvious.

I fully expect he will show up Monday. Tha fact he cant bring himself to communicate that he will be there is signs of a problem. The "I'll think about it" position he's taken is proof positive that even after all this time to come under control of his actions, he's still struggling with it.
crazyhorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 04:51 AM   #23
crazyhorse
All Motor!!
 
crazyhorse's Avatar
 
You can only hope to contain me

Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,299
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hambone13 View Post
You're too much. Champ Baily held out and demanded a trade that ultimately made him a Bronco. I guess he's a "Head Case" too.

For you to compare Jay to TO is a great justification for not debating with you. Because our definitions obviously differ so vastly it would be meaningless. TO is a true head case. I agree as do many Doctors of Psychology. I couldn't have used a better example as a means to dignify my definition and more importantly why Jay is not a "head case".

Please carry on your position with those willing to dwell and agree with your sophomoric observations.

So, you were just pouting.

Champ didn't throw a hissy fit. TO did.

How about Jeff George? Is he a better example?
crazyhorse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 05:10 AM   #24
TheReverend
www.PatrickTurley.org
 
TheReverend's Avatar
 
Not. Too. Shabby.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,407

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Mike Shanahan
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoInferno View Post
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.
Your logic is massively flawed. If he's trash giving McD massive credit, then why was McD trading for him? And the issue isn't that Cassel is "trash", it's that he's trash relative to Cutler's talent.
TheReverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2009, 07:20 AM   #25
Dedhed
Ring of Famer
 
Dedhed's Avatar
 
Fare thee well

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 9,935

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Q Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Your logic is massively flawed. If he's trash giving McD massive credit, then why was McD trading for him? And the issue isn't that Cassel is "trash", it's that he's trash relative to Cutler's talent.
Because he knows that being a leader is as important as throwing the football, and he thinks (as Cutler is proving) that Cutler my not be a premier player in that regard where he knows that Cassel is.
Dedhed is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:57 AM.


Denver Broncos