What Importance Do You Place on the Combine? - The Orange Mane

cmhargrove · 02-15-2009, 10:57 AM

Just a quick question here, but maybe it sparks some discussion on different philosophies on the importance of the combine in drafting.

Although i'm very interested in the combine results, i'm starting to feel indifferent towards it.

Hallside · 02-15-2009, 11:06 AM

Depends on position and other factors, but I'd say it's very important.

PRBronco · 02-15-2009, 11:15 AM

I'm somewhere in between the top two answers, because while I think waaaay too much importance is put on it, it also is a good judge of how serious a prospect is about the game. I get a very prima donna vibe from players who show up to the combine and don't participate without a reason.

gyldenlove · 02-15-2009, 11:31 AM

The combine is important for 3 reasons, it gives players a chance to show their limits, it gives teams an opportunity to guage the players mentality and it allows players who have played for bad teams to show that they may be better than they appear on tape.

Northman · 02-15-2009, 11:36 AM

Option 4. Its a great way to learn about players that fly under the radar. But its not the be all end all (Kyle Boller) to determine who is great or not.

skpac1001 · 02-15-2009, 11:36 AM

I think its pretty important as long as it is used as part of an overall evaluation. Game film is most important, but it can mislead you, and the combine provides you with a good, standardized way to isolate skills and check them against game film, and also a way to check out players skills at positions/roles they didn't play in college. I think the combine helps scouts identify players whose game film is misleading, and game film should help scouts identify players who are better at drills then football.

db56 · 02-15-2009, 11:55 AM

It does have its importance, but some GM's and coaches put waay to much stock in it the numbers. I agree with those that think its a very good measure for the players coming out.

Kaylore · 02-15-2009, 12:04 PM

I would say it's very important but not for the reasons in the poll. It really gives you a clearer idea of what you're looking at from a purely physical perspective. It also gives you a few more criteria to appraise a prospects value. Someone on film might play well and have a great work ethic. Then the question is their measurables. If they are elite then it adds value. If they are poor then they become a later round bargain. By the same token, someone can do awesome at the combine but on film they look like crap. Then it's question of whether they're just a workout warrior or if they weren't in a good coaching situation. Usually its the former.

BroncoMan4ever · 02-15-2009, 01:24 PM

i have never really thought the combine or pro days were all that important. all it does is showcase the measurables of a player. i honestly don't give a damn about how fast a player runs, how much he can lift or anything like that, because it has no actual bearing on how good a player on the field he would be.

look at TD. he ran like a 4.6-4.7 in the 40 and was overlooked for reasons like that, whereas on the field no one had faster game speed than him.

measurables don't have any bearing on whether or not a player will be any good, game film is what shows how good a player will be or has the ability to be.

measurables are why we are currently stuck with Jarvis Moss.

Punisher · 02-15-2009, 01:50 PM

always look for foot work

Crushaholic · 02-15-2009, 02:12 PM

The "diamonds in the rough" aren't usually the ones invited to combine, but there can be surprises and their individual stock could rise, based on the combine perfomance.

gyldenlove · 02-15-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever

i have never really thought the combine or pro days were all that important. all it does is showcase the measurables of a player. i honestly don't give a damn about how fast a player runs, how much he can lift or anything like that, because it has no actual bearing on how good a player on the field he would be.

look at TD. he ran like a 4.6-4.7 in the 40 and was overlooked for reasons like that, whereas on the field no one had faster game speed than him.

measurables don't have any bearing on whether or not a player will be any good, game film is what shows how good a player will be or has the ability to be.

measurables are why we are currently stuck with Jarvis Moss.

You can't blame Moss 4.7 40 yard dash and his 16 bench press reps at the combine for him being drafted in the 1st round.

Game film is at least as deceptive as measurables, look at John Mccargo, he looked good on tape but now no team would touch him with a 10 foot pole.

You can always find examples of people who have poor measurables but are very good players and you can find a ton of examples of people who played poorly but with good measurables who are very good players (Eddie Royal is one).

The important thing about the combine is that teams can talk to players and guage how players respond to adversity and competition. Clady last year helped himself by not backing out of the combine after he got injured so teams saw that he was willing to struggle on when it hurt. The same way some players hurt themselves by always being at the back of the line for drills. Those things are very important and you can't see that on game tape.

Rohirrim · 02-15-2009, 04:01 PM

Two words: Mike Mamula

cutthemdown · 02-15-2009, 04:13 PM

The poll is to narrow to say what the combine is.

It's a chance to meet players and put a face and personality to the name.
You can see how players either rise up or crumble under media and scouting scrutiny.

You can look for injuries that players and agents are trying to hide.

You can make sure players fit your size/speed ratios that you feel your team needs. IE Bill Parcells is really big on players looking the part as far as muscle development goes. He feels those players end up more durable.

Inkana7 · 02-15-2009, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyldenlove

You can't blame Moss 4.7 40 yard dash and his 16 bench press reps at the combine for him being drafted in the 1st round.

Game film is at least as deceptive as measurables, look at John Mccargo, he looked good on tape but now no team would touch him with a 10 foot pole.

You can always find examples of people who have poor measurables but are very good players and you can find a ton of examples of people who played poorly but with good measurables who are very good players (Eddie Royal is one).

The important thing about the combine is that teams can talk to players and guage how players respond to adversity and competition. Clady last year helped himself by not backing out of the combine after he got injured so teams saw that he was willing to struggle on when it hurt. The same way some players hurt themselves by always being at the back of the line for drills. Those things are very important and you can't see that on game tape.

John McCargo played on a line with Mario Williams, Manny Lawson and Tank Tyler. Part of the combine is to see if his production was because of that or his own talent. I thought McCargo would produce. Maybe he just didn't get the mental part of the game.

Tombstone RJ · 02-15-2009, 05:56 PM

I think the combine is way important cause it lets you find guys who can jump really high, and run really fast. Who cares about tackling anyway?

KCStud · 02-15-2009, 06:00 PM

It gets you a chance to see them on a personal level.

It's very important to see how players react. For example, seeing how a CB performs in drills. Speed is one thing, but you get a chance to see if they have fluid hips and can good judgement.

Man-Goblin · 02-15-2009, 06:16 PM

It's all about the Wonderlic, baby. I'm feeling a 5 from someone this year.

tsiguy96 · 02-15-2009, 06:25 PM

not super important. game speed and straight line speed are different, these players spend months training the very specific drills the combine tests, so the numbers are inflated a bit, and great players dont take it very seriously all the time. what it does do however is show you the maximum potential of a player. take that for what its worth though, as the skills are not perfect carry-overs to the NFL

BowlenBall · 02-15-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man-Goblin

It's all about the Wonderlic, baby. I'm feeling a 5 from someone this year.

While you're probably being sarcastic here, I think you actually have a good point.

That Vince Young wonderlic score ended up being a pretty good predictor of future performance, didn't it? If the Titans had taken Cutler instead, they'd be holding the Lombardi trophy now.

BroncoMan4ever · 02-15-2009, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExpatFan

While you're probably being sarcastic here, I think you actually have a good point.

That Vince Young wonderic score ended up being a pretty good predictor of future performance, didn't it? If the Titans had taken Cutler instead, they'd be holding the Lombardi trophy now.

and we would have been lucky to finish this year at 4-12

OrangeRising · 02-15-2009, 10:13 PM

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the Combine is just one phase of the evaluation process. It allows the college players to begin understanding the expectations of being a professional athlete, and the NFL get it's first opportunity to see how a sizeable potential investment performs, acts and thinks. Combined with the individual workouts and Pro Days, it seems a little surprising to me that there still so many busts. But then, I guess it'smuch harder to gauge heart.

tsiguy96 · 02-15-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeRising

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the Combine is just one phase of the evaluation process. It allows the college players to begin understanding the expectations of being a professional athlete, and the NFL get it's first opportunity to see how a sizeable potential investment performs, acts and thinks. Combined with the individual workouts and Pro Days, it seems a little surprising to me that there still so many busts. But then, I guess it'smuch harder to gauge heart.

i think a lot of "busts" are a result of the team that drafted them not developing them or giving them a fair shake. look at essentially every raiders pick over teh last 5 years

sirhcyennek81 · 02-15-2009, 11:52 PM

This is just one tool out of many scouts and coaches get to use to determine the talent level of incoming college athletes.

Dedhed · 02-16-2009, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoMan4ever

measurables are why we are currently stuck with Jarvis Moss.

Right, it has nothing to do with coaching or playing out of position.

Here are some combine notes on Moss:
Jarvis Moss - Moss exhibited the speed that have some believing he can be an effective 3-4 OLB, with a 4.70 40. Moss did not do any of the agility drills, so his performance at his pro day will determine if he can transition to that position at the next level. At just 250 lbs, Moss is probably too small to be an every down DE in the NFL.

I'm sure that his performance in a single drill was the reason we drafted him, and that it had nothing to do with him terrorizing OSU in the National Championship game.

View Poll Results: How do you feel about the Combine?
Forget the combine, watch game film only to draft great players	11	18.97%
The combine is somewhat important, it lets you know how individuals stack up against "the best."	28	48.28%
The combine is very important to judging talent, "buy" a player based on physical giftedness.	4	6.90%
The main benefit is it let's you find unknown players - "gems in the rough."	15	25.86%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

02-15-2009, 10:57 AM	#1
cmhargrove Is this thing on??? Travis Henry's love child... Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 6,411 Adopt-a-Bronco: Peyton Hillis	What Importance Do You Place on the Combine? Just a quick question here, but maybe it sparks some discussion on different philosophies on the importance of the combine in drafting. Although i'm very interested in the combine results, i'm starting to feel indifferent towards it.

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02-15-2009, 11:06 AM	#2
Hallside Solid Starter John Fox is Stupid Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 165	Depends on position and other factors, but I'd say it's very important.

02-15-2009, 11:15 AM	#3
PRBronco FML less Join Date: May 2004 Location: North Vancouver Posts: 4,206 Adopt-a-Bronco: I'm so alone	I'm somewhere in between the top two answers, because while I think waaaay too much importance is put on it, it also is a good judge of how serious a prospect is about the game. I get a very prima donna vibe from players who show up to the combine and don't participate without a reason.

02-15-2009, 11:31 AM	#4
gyldenlove Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London, ON Posts: 10,034 Adopt-a-Bronco: Spencer Larsen	The combine is important for 3 reasons, it gives players a chance to show their limits, it gives teams an opportunity to guage the players mentality and it allows players who have played for bad teams to show that they may be better than they appear on tape.

02-15-2009, 11:36 AM	#5
Northman The Enigma Prognosis Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 17,925 Adopt-a-Bronco: Bryci	Option 4. Its a great way to learn about players that fly under the radar. But its not the be all end all (Kyle Boller) to determine who is great or not.

02-15-2009, 11:36 AM	#6
skpac1001 Ring of Famer I brings the ruckus Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Temecula, Ca Posts: 1,129 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	I think its pretty important as long as it is used as part of an overall evaluation. Game film is most important, but it can mislead you, and the combine provides you with a good, standardized way to isolate skills and check them against game film, and also a way to check out players skills at positions/roles they didn't play in college. I think the combine helps scouts identify players whose game film is misleading, and game film should help scouts identify players who are better at drills then football.

02-15-2009, 11:55 AM	#7
db56 Seasoned Veteran Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 281	It does have its importance, but some GM's and coaches put waay to much stock in it the numbers. I agree with those that think its a very good measure for the players coming out.

02-15-2009, 12:04 PM	#8
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,066 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	I would say it's very important but not for the reasons in the poll. It really gives you a clearer idea of what you're looking at from a purely physical perspective. It also gives you a few more criteria to appraise a prospects value. Someone on film might play well and have a great work ethic. Then the question is their measurables. If they are elite then it adds value. If they are poor then they become a later round bargain. By the same token, someone can do awesome at the combine but on film they look like crap. Then it's question of whether they're just a workout warrior or if they weren't in a good coaching situation. Usually its the former.

02-15-2009, 01:24 PM	#9
BroncoMan4ever Ring of Famer Here to chew bubblegum and kick ass Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 11,572 Adopt-a-Bronco: VIRGIL GREEN!!!	i have never really thought the combine or pro days were all that important. all it does is showcase the measurables of a player. i honestly don't give a damn about how fast a player runs, how much he can lift or anything like that, because it has no actual bearing on how good a player on the field he would be. look at TD. he ran like a 4.6-4.7 in the 40 and was overlooked for reasons like that, whereas on the field no one had faster game speed than him. measurables don't have any bearing on whether or not a player will be any good, game film is what shows how good a player will be or has the ability to be. measurables are why we are currently stuck with Jarvis Moss.

02-15-2009, 01:50 PM	#10
Punisher ® You Tell The NFL! We're coming for That Belt! WOOOOO® Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Broncos Video Vault Posts: 6,629 Adopt-a-Bronco: i4jelway7	always look for foot work

02-15-2009, 02:12 PM	#11
Crushaholic Armchair Poster Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Topeka, KS Posts: 22,044	The "diamonds in the rough" aren't usually the ones invited to combine, but there can be surprises and their individual stock could rise, based on the combine perfomance.

02-15-2009, 04:01 PM	#13
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,849	Two words: Mike Mamula

02-15-2009, 04:13 PM	#14
cutthemdown A verbis ad verbera Zimm to HOF Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Long Beach Posts: 32,498	The poll is to narrow to say what the combine is. It's a chance to meet players and put a face and personality to the name. You can see how players either rise up or crumble under media and scouting scrutiny. You can look for injuries that players and agents are trying to hide. You can make sure players fit your size/speed ratios that you feel your team needs. IE Bill Parcells is really big on players looking the part as far as muscle development goes. He feels those players end up more durable.

02-15-2009, 05:56 PM	#16
Tombstone RJ Ring of Famer Old School Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: In the Tetons! Posts: 19,305 Adopt-a-Bronco: WorrellWilliams	I think the combine is way important cause it lets you find guys who can jump really high, and run really fast. Who cares about tackling anyway?

02-15-2009, 06:00 PM	#17
KCStud Ring of Famer AmeriStanzi! Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,017 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	It gets you a chance to see them on a personal level. It's very important to see how players react. For example, seeing how a CB performs in drills. Speed is one thing, but you get a chance to see if they have fluid hips and can good judgement.

02-15-2009, 06:16 PM	#18
Man-Goblin Giving You The Business Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Huntersville, NC Posts: 5,589 Adopt-a-Bronco: Woodyard	It's all about the Wonderlic, baby. I'm feeling a 5 from someone this year.

02-15-2009, 06:25 PM	#19
tsiguy96 Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 12,559 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	not super important. game speed and straight line speed are different, these players spend months training the very specific drills the combine tests, so the numbers are inflated a bit, and great players dont take it very seriously all the time. what it does do however is show you the maximum potential of a player. take that for what its worth though, as the skills are not perfect carry-overs to the NFL

02-15-2009, 10:13 PM	#22
OrangeRising Seasoned Veteran Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Boondocks Ohio Posts: 276	I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the Combine is just one phase of the evaluation process. It allows the college players to begin understanding the expectations of being a professional athlete, and the NFL get it's first opportunity to see how a sizeable potential investment performs, acts and thinks. Combined with the individual workouts and Pro Days, it seems a little surprising to me that there still so many busts. But then, I guess it'smuch harder to gauge heart.

02-15-2009, 11:52 PM	#24
sirhcyennek81 Yes...swooping is bad... Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florence, Colorado Posts: 20,678 Adopt-a-Bronco: All of them.	This is just one tool out of many scouts and coaches get to use to determine the talent level of incoming college athletes.