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Old 01-31-2009, 04:11 PM   #1
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Default Question about Bates

Sorry to take you back to what may be bad memories, but I was wondering if any of you could help clear up some confusion we're having as Bucs fans. As you probably know, Jim Bates was hired to take Kiffin's place, well actually it was Morris' for 2 weeks before he was promoted.

Was Bates scheme actually used in the regular season while he was there or did Slowik change it ? I know that the D had a hard time adjusting in the pre-season......was that because they had the wrong personnel or because the players didn't buy into Bates system ?

Reason I'm asking is the folks down in Tampa are trying to figure out if the existing DTs are going to work in his system or not. The line of thinking down there is that you need bigger DTs (325+). The Bucs have traditionally used undersized tackles in the 280-300lb range and most of the DTs on the roster don't have the skill set to penetrate as they only had about 2 or 3 sacks combined this season. They may re-sign Ryan Sims (315) and they just signed Dre Moore (310lbs) to a futures contract after being on the PS in '08.

IIRC, you guys had Adams, Kennedy, Gordon & McKinley in TC, Warren was traded to the Raiders and the Broncos drafted Marcus Thomas who was more of a one gap/ 3 technique guy (UT). Adams didn't seem to get much playing time same as Gordon. Was Gordon even used inside that year?

Anyway, seems Bates likes to funnel everything back to center and the DTs don't penetrate but are there to take away the run up the middle, yet the Broncos seemed to keep more DTs that were 300lbs and under that season.

Did they scrap Bates scheme and when was it that he got that "promotion" from d-coordinator to assistant head coach ? Did they still use his scheme with the smaller tackles ? What was the timing of these events ?

I know that's a lot of questions, but hopefully some of you can help out.

Thanks in advance everyone.

^mtn^
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:16 PM   #2
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Gordon actually started for us that year and sucked. In fact, the entire ill-equipped defense sucked. Apparently it requires larger tackles to eat space inside, though none of us would know from watching Broncos games It was scrapped halfway through the season, if i recall correctly.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:10 PM   #3
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He knows other defenses, but don't be surprised if you target some hogs in FA and the draft. He's a genius and if Raheem gives him the time, TB can continue it's tradition as a great defensive football team.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:12 PM   #4
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Don't be surprised if you suck for a year or two though until the right guys are there.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:39 PM   #5
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You guys will need to transition from your Cover-2 type D-Tackles to much bigger space eaters.

You'll pretty much suck huge balls until you do.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:41 PM   #6
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He had to use Sam Adams. Bates never got a fair shake here. Even a world class chef can't make a good meal out of crap.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:42 PM   #7
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Gordon actually started for us that year and sucked. In fact, the entire ill-equipped defense sucked. Apparently it requires larger tackles to eat space inside, though none of us would know from watching Broncos games It was scrapped halfway through the season, if i recall correctly.
That's part of why there's some confusion.

Wow, that's funny they scrapped it mid-season.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:45 PM   #8
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He knows other defenses, but don't be surprised if you target some hogs in FA and the draft. He's a genius and if Raheem gives him the time, TB can continue it's tradition as a great defensive football team.
Monte was a defensive genius as well, so it'll be nice to continue the 12 year trend.

Sounds like Jim likes to blitz more.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:45 PM   #9
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Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:46 PM   #10
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That's part of why there's some confusion.

Wow, that's funny they scrapped it mid-season.
That's up for debate. Some say it was, some say it wasn't. The core Jim Bates defense was scrapped after the Bye, but he continued the defensive playcalling.

We sucked with it no matter what. Our D this year was statistically worse, but last year we just got killed by long drives, which is due to every team getting 6 yards a carry with ease.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:48 PM   #11
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Monte was a defensive genius as well, so it'll be nice to continue the 12 year trend.

Sounds like Jim likes to blitz more.
Not particularly. You can take a look at Tennessee's defense and watch a Jim Bates blueprint in their base package.
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Old 01-31-2009, 05:51 PM   #12
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You guys will need to transition from your Cover-2 type D-Tackles to much bigger space eaters.

You'll pretty much suck huge balls until you do.
Were teams blowing up your DTs ?
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:00 PM   #13
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Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.
The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:02 PM   #14
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Were teams blowing up your DTs ?
Let me put it this way. It was like watching 11 vs. 9 in the run game. If your DTs aren't up to the task, the your run D gets shredded.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:03 PM   #15
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The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?
You guys are set at every position but DT. Your DTs go about 290, right? That's not going to cut it.

DJ struggled for the most part because he was moved to MLB. He had his moments where he played really well, but he looked lost a lot of the time. Ruud should have 150+ tackles in this system.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:05 PM   #16
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The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?
He was in the middle that season.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:36 PM   #17
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You guys are set at every position but DT. Your DTs go about 290, right? That's not going to cut it.

DJ struggled for the most part because he was moved to MLB. He had his moments where he played really well, but he looked lost a lot of the time. Ruud should have 150+ tackles in this system.
That's what I hear, if ran correctly the MLB gets alot of action.

Yeah Hovan is about 300, Haye 285 and then for depth there's Sims 315 and Wilkerson 290 would jump in at UT on some passing downs.

But I've heard Bates plays bump and run, yet I also heard he doesn't leave guys out on an island either ? If they indeed play bump & run, Barber won't cut it and will probably have to come in only on nickel packages. Talib will be fine in man but P-Buc may not cut it either....he may not be re-signed.

Monte disguised alot as cover 2, but was playing more cover 3 as well as some 4 the last few years. He added different twists but they didn't play as much man to man and didn't blitz much. Not much cover 2 at all.

Even though the secondary was top 5 last two seasons, there wasn't much of a pass rush and the DBs were in coverage too long.

P-Buc & Barber got exposed this season. Barber had mixed results.......I guess that's what happens when you start to lose a step but your smarts can still get you some big plays.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:40 PM   #18
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That's what I hear, if ran correctly the MLB gets alot of action.

Yeah Hovan is about 300, Haye 285 and then for depth there's Sims 315 and Wilkerson 290 would jump in at UT on some passing downs.

But I've heard Bates plays bump and run, yet I also heard he doesn't leave guys out on an island either ? If they indeed play bump & run, Barber won't cut it and will probably have to come in only on nickel packages. Talib will be fine in man but P-Buc may not cut it either....he may not be re-signed.

Monte disguised alot as cover 2, but was playing more cover 3 as well as some 4 the last few years. He added different twists but they didn't play as much man to man and didn't blitz much. Not much cover 2 at all.

Even though the secondary was top 5 last two seasons, there wasn't much of a pass rush and the DBs were in coverage too long.

P-Buc & Barber got exposed this season. Barber had mixed results.......I guess that's what happens when you start to lose a step but your smarts can still get you some big plays.
I wouldn't worry about your DBs. Bates does a good job stopping the pass. He used a lot of man with a good deal of Cover 2 looks as well. Having a Safety corps as good as Tampa's is a very good thing. Bates can turn Gaines Adams into a player.

Just be concerned about the center of your D.
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:54 PM   #19
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Sounds good, but why did the Broncos let their big boys go ? Was Warren really that much of a locker room problem ? Or was part of because he pretty hefty contract ?
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:08 PM   #20
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Sounds good, but why did the Broncos let their big boys go ? Was Warren really that much of a locker room problem ? Or was part of because he pretty hefty contract ?
He didn't fit the system, I guess. Or he was lazy. I don't know. I just know I wish he were still here.
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:16 PM   #21
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He didn't fit the system, I guess. Or he was lazy. I don't know. I just know I wish he were still here.
And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:20 PM   #22
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And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.
We got a 5th rounder they got a bit player. I'd say we won.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:16 AM   #23
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And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.
It was pretty simple really. Gerard Warren thinks he's a modern day Warren Sapp. When Cleveland was switching to a 3-4 he wanted out because he didn't want to take up blockers. So he came here and basically played horribly inconsistent football. When Bates came in and wanted disciplined gap containment from his DTs Warren wasn't game and so he was sent packing.

The 5th was pretty solid compensation in my opinion, for a guy who rarely seems to give full effort and thinks he knows best how he should be used, not the coaching staff.

Bates was hired as an Asst. HC from day one here with Slowik as the DC. I think more than a few people have drawn the conclusion that Shanahan was quick with the trigger because he wanted his pal Slowik to be completely in charge of the defense. We ran something similar to Bates' standard D for basically the first half of the season, then some bastard child amalgamation of his system and whatever the hell you'd call the crap Slowik considers a "scheme" from there on out.

Basically, Bates showed up and didn't get immediate results. A lot of that is probably on Bates but the lack of opportunity given to him falls squarely at Shanahan's feet and the suck that has been our D the last few years lands pretty squarely on Slowik as well.

He could be a very good addition for the Bucs. But I also wouldn't expect him to come in and make wholesale changes to a defense that not only has been working for the last decade plus, but also the same defense that your new HC spent a lot of time coaching.

Something like cover 2 shells with Bates' DL schemes mixed in is more along the lines of what I'd expect. I think Raheem Morris is going to be a good coach in this league given a little time to get his feet wet, and he'll make the right calls to best utilize the talent on his defense.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.
exactly, he will make talent look better, but if you are rebuilding a defense he isn't the guy you want. also, the Bucs current DT's aren't the big space eaters to clog up the middle and allow the DE's to rush wide. So it will not surprise me to see the Tampa D take a stap or 2 back while he gets his system and players in place.
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Old 02-01-2009, 12:03 PM   #25
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Thanks everyone, appreciate all the input. Hope to hear more perspective.

Drek, the D has been working, or should I say it was working up until December when Hovan & Haye were injured. Haye really wasn't healthy all season and it showed in the stat colunm - 0 sacks, L/Y 6 sacks. But they were able to compensate thru the first 12 games of the season. They got killed on the ground by Carolina, San Diego & Oakland.
The D fell apart in an unusual fashion in the 4th quarter of those games.

The Bucs have no depth in the middle and even the starters are suspect. DTs are definitely at a premium these days.
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