The Orange Mane -  a Denver Broncos Fan Community  

Go Back   The Orange Mane - a Denver Broncos Fan Community > Orange Mane Discussion > Orange Mane Central Discussion
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Chat Room Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-23-2009, 11:22 PM   #1
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default Marcus Thomas

So it seems that no one around here believes that Marcus Thomas can grow into a role in the 3-4? Im just wondering the reasoning and oppinions on this... (god i hate spelling and grammer some words you just can't sound out.)

personaly i'v seen nothing but improvement and have been very impressed by him In fact i believe he can be a starter for years to come, he still hasn't reached his talents peak. Do you guys not see the same things i am seeing? And what do you think makes him a liability to our team?
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-23-2009, 11:24 PM   #2
Natedog24
Ring of Famer
 
Natedog24's Avatar
 
Win The Day

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 2,217

Adopt-a-Bronco:
TJ Ward
Default

I would think that Thomas would make a solid 3-4 DE. Its just that 3-4 DEs are a whole heck of a lot easier to find then finding that big NT that is cornerstone for your entire 3-4 Defense.
Natedog24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:25 PM   #3
Popps
It's so easy
 
Popps's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 29,774
Default

I think he and Robertson end up end candidates in a 3-4. Both are on the small side for DTs and are very athletic. Robertson can definitely penetrate and disrupt. I'm not sure about Thomas, but he seems to hold his own off the snap.

I'm actually very intrigued to see how it would work out if we found a quality NT.
Popps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:26 PM   #4
Rock Chalk
Cheeky Bastards
 
Rock Chalk's Avatar
 
Laus Deo

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Backside of the Internet
Posts: 29,721

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Chris Harris
Default

Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.
Rock Chalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:28 PM   #5
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default

Wouldn't you want someone smaller for your 3-4 DE say around the 270-280 range who still had a little bit more quickness or are you saying he has the quickness at 320 to play the position making him a kind of unique player at the position. Correct me if i'm wrong but not many 3-4 DE are over the 300 pound mark i don't believe.
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:29 PM   #6
Punisher
® Kiss the shoes!
 
Punisher's Avatar
 
We run the AFC WOOOOOOO!®

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Broncos Video Vault
Posts: 7,604

Adopt-a-Bronco:
I4jelway7 = God
Default

I like thommy In the 4-3 but I think the nose tackle postion is to much for him right now.
Punisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:30 PM   #7
Rock Chalk
Cheeky Bastards
 
Rock Chalk's Avatar
 
Laus Deo

Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: The Backside of the Internet
Posts: 29,721

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Chris Harris
Default

Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".
Rock Chalk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:32 PM   #8
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.
No offense intended, but I don't think that answered a single question i asked, I asked for objective oppinions on marcus thomas' ability translated to the 3-4 not whether our defense would suck or not. So please people keep these types of comments to yourself unless backed by factual information or an objective oppinion not a generalized one.

Not to pick on you but thats the type of response im trying to avoid and the type of response that has been slowing degrading the discussions on this site for the last several years.( I can't say i havn't been a part of it either.) But there was a time when people asked good questions and received well thought out answers on this site.

Last edited by KillerBronco#76; 01-23-2009 at 11:39 PM..
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:38 PM   #9
TheDave
Sauced...
 
TheDave's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,999
Default

I have absolutely no idea if Thomas's skill set will translate into a 3-4 DE. As alec said, he came into the league as a penetrating DT out of a 4-3. Unfortunately i think he was way too inconsistent at the point of attack for me to say he could control 2 gaps as a "Stack and Shed" DE in our front 3.


I'd be willing to see if it works but i have no idea if it will.
TheDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:42 PM   #10
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".
Thank you, like i said i didn't mean to start an argument with that last post. Posted it before i saw this. But can't change it because well it is a good example of what im not looking for.
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2009, 11:49 PM   #11
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default

Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

Last edited by KillerBronco#76; 01-24-2009 at 12:01 AM..
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 12:06 AM   #12
TheDave
Sauced...
 
TheDave's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,999
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBronco#76 View Post
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...
I felt he was inconsistent at the point. One play he held his ground the next he was blown off the ball. Just too young and too inconsistent for me to have much confidence in his ability to play DE.

As for our DLine not being the major problem... Lets just say I completely disagree. Especially at DE...
TheDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 12:09 AM   #13
chrisp
Friend of the unsung
 
chrisp's Avatar
 
Not into the football......yet

Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: London UK
Posts: 1,352

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Danny Trevathan
Default

3-4 DEs tend to be very similar physical types to 4-3 DTs so I don't think there's any issue with Thomas' physique - however I would say that most people on this board seem to be in agreement that he would probably make a decent 3-4 DE anyway, I don't see a lot of people suggesting that he isn't at least worth a try.

One of the key issues with the 3-4 is going to be gap assignments however. I believe that San Diego are considered to play their 3-4 with one-gap assignments more in line with the 4-3, so although they have Jamal Williams who is the classic NT size and shape, the role their d-linemen play is more of the penetrating style. Given that we've just acquired San Diego's D-line coach, it wouldn't surprise me to see us adopt a similar style, particularly if we have to look to the draft for a true NT - it takes these guys a while to get up to speed after all.

One further point is that although most true Nose Tackles are short and stout with a low centre of gravity (possibly around 6-2 or less, 320lbs + ?) you don't have to be that type to play the position - if a player has the instincts and smarts to handle the gap assignments effectively, and enough strength and athleticism overall, they can be a little lighter and still get the job done. I believe that when Pittsburgh last won the superbowl, they did it with Casey hampton injured, and his backup Chris Hoke who played all through the playoffs just tips the scales at around 305.

I know that shanny's committment to undersized players often bordered on the ridiculous (Elvis at NT?) but it still remains true that you can be undersized at a particular position and still play it well if you're good enough.
chrisp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 12:16 AM   #14
KillerBronco#76
Perennial Pro-bowler
 
KillerBronco#76's Avatar
 
"The Beast" From the east

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDave View Post
I felt he was inconsistent at the point. One play he held his ground the next he was blown off the ball. Just too young and too inconsistent for me to have much confidence in his ability to play DE.

As for our DLine not being the major problem... Lets just say I completely disagree. Especially at DE...
please don't just say you disagree, tell me why you disagree. who did you see play poorly Because i don't know if i was watching a different game than everyone else but to me it didn't seem the our d-line was obviously getting dominated.
I saw a lot of line backer and saftey over pursuing. The only one not guilty of that which saw was larsen although slower seemed to lack the ability to over pursue and just attacked and tried to over power at the point of attack. That actually seemed to improve our defense tremendously untill they took him out, then webster began to over pursue like crazy.
Barrett took terrible angles many times thinking he was faster than he was.

But Thomas especially at least when i watched him showed the most promise out of anyone on our defense.

I guess im wondering why a 320 Pound human being is considered undersized to play the position? Especially when teams like Dallas doesn't have a lineman that weighs 320, vince wilfork is 325, and casey hampton is 325... the ladder seems to play nose tackle pretty well for their teams

Last edited by KillerBronco#76; 01-24-2009 at 12:26 AM..
KillerBronco#76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 12:28 AM   #15
TheDave
Sauced...
 
TheDave's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 14,999
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBronco#76 View Post
please don't just say you disagree, tell me why you disagree. who did you see play poorly Because i don't know if i was watching a different game than everyone else but to me it didn't seem the our d-line was obviously getting dominated.
I saw a lot of line backer and saftey over pursuing. The only one not guilty of that which saw was larsen although slower seemed to lack the ability to over pursue and just attacked and tried to over power at the point of attack. That actually seemed to improve our defense tremendously untill they took him out, then webster began to over pursue like crazy.
Barrett took terrible angles many times thinking he was faster than he was.

But Thomas especially at least when i watched him showed the most promise out of anyone on our defense.

I guess im wondering why a 320 Pound human being is considered undersized to play the position?
Linebackers and safeties were over pursuing because holes 3-4 yards wide were being opened up on a fairly regular basis. More times than not it was one of our DE's getting blocked and staying blocked... But Thomas suffered his share of maulings.

Our defense as a whole was terrible... But the Dline offered VERY little when asked to pass rush and even less when playing the run. You just can't leave a 1st year Safety to cover 10-12 feet of open ground against NFL running backs and not expect them to win every battle.
TheDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 12:58 AM   #16
BroncoMan4ever
Ring of Famer
 
BroncoMan4ever's Avatar
 
That's just like your opinion, man

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 13,512

Adopt-a-Bronco:
VIRGIL GREEN!!!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
I think he and Robertson end up end candidates in a 3-4. Both are on the small side for DTs and are very athletic. Robertson can definitely penetrate and disrupt. I'm not sure about Thomas, but he seems to hold his own off the snap.

I'm actually very intrigued to see how it would work out if we found a quality NT.
actually, i think Thomas could become an elite DE in a 3-4. his best attributes have always been his athleticism and ability to penetrate. the problem has been that in both Bates and SLowik's "schemes" they made his primary duty to hold up the play. He was there to clog the lanes and force plays to the outside for our LB's to make a play. Were he allowed to play to his strengths he has the potential to become a Warren Sapp type of DT.
BroncoMan4ever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 02:25 AM   #17
Rocky Mountain Stampede
Solid Starter
 
Rocky Mountain Stampede's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 223
Default

Give Marcus some blasters and he'll do anything you want.

Rocky Mountain Stampede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 02:27 AM   #18
eddie mac
Ireland's No1 Bronco
 
eddie mac's Avatar
 
Eddie Mac 87 gone but never forgott

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 17,294

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Rod Smith
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".
That's exactly Nolan's long-term system, 1 gap penetrating line. Whether he can find the 3 or more players to accomplish that along the line within 1 offseason I've no idea. He couldn't do it as HC of the 9ers over 4 seasons. Then again during that time he was focusing on all 3 aspects of the game and then some and was drafting to rebuild an offense as well with 9 of his 12 early picks from 2005-2007 being used on that side of the ball.

He's done all he can so far to help his cause by hiring the best 1 gap DL teacher in the NFL in Runnels. A lot also depends on who reaches UFA in March and how much Bowlen gives McDaniels to invest in the roster this offseason.
eddie mac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 04:03 AM   #19
SpringStein
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Monument, CO
Posts: 2,810
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBronco#76 View Post
Wouldn't you want someone smaller for your 3-4 DE say around the 270-280 range who still had a little bit more quickness or are you saying he has the quickness at 320 to play the position making him a kind of unique player at the position. Correct me if i'm wrong but not many 3-4 DE are over the 300 pound mark i don't believe.
Both of the Pats DEs, Warren and Seymour, are just over 300.
SpringStein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 07:24 AM   #20
backup qb
Ring of Famer
 
backup qb's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shelbyville,Il
Posts: 1,303
Default

I think we have to try Thomas at DE if the switch to 3-4 does indeed happen. I don't think we have any choice at this point. Granted, this is pre-free agency and pre-draft, but with his potential and the price we paid to move up to get him, we have to continue to attempt to maximize his abilities. If he doesn't stand out this year, then it's probably time to cut bait. Same goes for Jarvis and Crowder. I would love to see what he could do with a real D-line around him.
backup qb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2009, 07:28 AM   #21
Jesterhole
Ring of Famer
 
Jesterhole's Avatar
 
Ridin' the McFailboat...

Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBronco#76 View Post
(god i hate spelling and grammer some words you just can't sound out.)
Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.
Jesterhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 12:28 PM   #22
gyldenlove
Ring of Famer
 
gyldenlove's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Nęstved, DK
Posts: 11,209

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Spencer Larsen
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBronco#76 View Post
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...
We played 1-gap read and react with Slowick.

The main difference between the 4-3 1-gap DT that Thomas played this year and the 3-4 2-gap DE he will be playing if we adobt the same defense the Patriots use is that he will have to hold his ground and fight off blockers rather than trying to penetrate and disrupt.

Thomas has good power and good quickness and he often faced double teams on the inside this season, so being the DE shouldn't be much of a mental change for him, especially if he can consistently absorb double blocks.

The norm right now in 3-4 systems is to have DE's who play at between 300 and 315 lbs. You don't really need quick guys, you need guys who won't be moved out of the way.

The Chargers play a 1-gap system with their DEs (the 3 gaps) and the outside linebackers cover 5-gaps and beyond. The Patriots play a 2-gap system with the NT taking the 1-gaps (common) and the DEs taking the 3 and 5 gaps, leaving the OLBs to drop into coverage and play the wide run.
gyldenlove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 12:43 PM   #23
Paladin
Ring of Famer
 

Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 9,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesterhole View Post
Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.
word
Paladin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 01:12 PM   #24
ZONA
Ring of Famer
 
ZONA's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 10,760

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Chris Harris
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Chalk View Post
Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.
How can you suck worse then what we did last year? You switch or you don't switch, there is none of this, hybrid crap and there is no, we'll work our way into it. You do something or you don't do something. Period.
ZONA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2009, 02:40 PM   #25
SonOfLe-loLang
Young Buck
 
SonOfLe-loLang's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 22,023

Adopt-a-Bronco:
Thunder (RIP)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesterhole View Post
Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.
Will it auto-correct "Dumerville" into "Dumervil" ?
SonOfLe-loLang is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:52 AM.


Denver Broncos