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Old 01-20-2009, 06:04 AM   #1
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Default We won't be switching to a 3-4

It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:10 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.
I think the hybrid 4-3 might be the best road for us anyway. However, I hope the "talent evaluation" going on right now is still brutal. There are many of these guys that didn't deserve to be Broncos this year and they should be gone.

Find some huge DT's to train for a year or two, get a bona-fide pass rusher, get a huge DE sized SAM (like Suggs), and a Safety. This team can be fixed and the hybrid 4-3 is still a very flexible scheme.

I'm not as concerned with the scheme right now, I am really concerned about the talent level of the players. We could go a long way to fixing that this offseason.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:12 AM   #3
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I think the hybrid 4-3 might be the best road for us anyway. However, I hope the "talent evaluation" going on right now is still brutal. There are many of these guys that didn't deserve to be Broncos this year and they should be gone.

Find some huge DT's to train for a year or two, get a bona-fide pass rusher, get a huge DE sized SAM (like Suggs), and a Safety. This team can be fixed and the hybrid 4-3 is still a very flexible scheme.

I'm not as concerned with the scheme right now, I am really concerned about the talent level of the players. We could go a long way to fixing that this offseason.
I change that remark. The skill of the D-line sucked balls last year. I mean horrible. They didn't work well as a unit, and consistently lost their one on one battles.

Also, getting rid of the Slowik cushion will help us get off the field on third down, and help my blood pressure tremendously.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:13 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.
DEN could still run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 if they were aggressive in FA, and then traded back in the draft to aquire more picks. They could still stay at #12 and still do it.
Its possible. I think how often DEN is in the 3-4 will depend on how many quality players they aquire to run it the offseason.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:16 AM   #5
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I change that remark. The skill of the D-line sucked balls last year. I mean horrible. They didn't work well as a unit, and consistently lost their one on one battles.

Also, getting rid of the Slowik cushion will help us get off the field on third down, and help my blood pressure tremendously.
Sealing up Atogwe, taking a stud MLB in the first round, and then addressing depth at DE, and the secondary could go a LONG ways.

Pay for Atogwe. Extend Brandon and Kuper. See what you have left to at least test the waters with Peppers or Haynesworth.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:18 AM   #6
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DEN could still run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 if they were aggressive in FA, and then traded back in the draft to aquire more picks. They could still stay at #12 and still do it.
Its possible. I think how often DEN is in the 3-4 will depend on how many quality players they aquire to run it the offseason.
I just suggested they take a stab at a hybrid! Just not this past seasons "hybrid" where they're actually running both schemes with a bunch of half-retarded players.

Trading back with our top pick (only #12, I'm in favor of trading back after round one) is something I don't like this season, despite how deep the draft will be.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:19 AM   #7
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I heard on the radio yesterday that Bill Parcells stuck with a 4-3 in Dallas for two whole seasons after taking the job at Dallas because it took that long to amass the personel needed to switch to the 3-4.

So, unless one subscribes to the "It can't be any worse!" philosophy, a switch in one season is probably unrealistic.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:25 AM   #8
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I heard on the radio yesterday that Bill Parcells stuck with a 4-3 in Dallas for two whole seasons after taking the job at Dallas because it took that long to amass the personel needed to switch to the 3-4.

So, unless one subscribes to the "It can't be any worse!" philosophy, a switch in one season is probably unrealistic.
It would be a defeatist attitude, and keep the weight on Jay's shoulders that everyone is currently crucifying him for.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:30 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
...
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4.
...
-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.
...

-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 4-3.

-we have a gaping hole at safety regardless of what happens with the front 7.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:35 AM   #10
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-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 4-3.

-we have a gaping hole at safety regardless of what happens with the front 7.
Agree, but you obviously missed the point... so I'll make it as clear as possible:

The Point: Shifting to a 3-4 WOULD require extra resources that could inhibit Denver from landing a good safety.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:44 AM   #11
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From the other thread, wanted to link this in fairness:

From PFWeekly

Jan. 15, 2009 By Dan Parr

Broncos' McDaniels, Nolan prepare for 3-4 shift on defense


With Mike Nolan locked in as head coach Josh McDaniels’ defensive coordinator, the Broncos will shift completely to a 3-4 defense next season after experimenting with it in a limited capacity in 2008. Although McDaniels, the former Patriots O-coordinator, isn’t experienced in coaching defense, he plans to be heavily involved in that side of things. Sources in Denver say it won’t be a case of Nolan serving as a defensive “head coach” while McDaniels, 32, stays out of his way. There are some questions about the feasibility of a quick transition from a 4-3 to 3-4 in Denver since a massive overhaul in personnel usually is necessitated by a change in schemes. In the Broncos’ case, though, regardless of scheme, sweeping changes were necessary well before McDaniels and Nolan came to town. Denver was ranked 29th in defense last season, and sources say a rebuilding effort is overdue.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:46 AM   #12
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I just suggested they take a stab at a hybrid! Just not this past seasons "hybrid" where they're actually running both schemes with a bunch of half-retarded players.
Agree. but if they were agressive in FA, it is possible to cure some of those issues.
Trading back with our top pick (only #12, I'm in favor of trading back after round one) is something I don't like this season, despite how deep the draft will be.
So if DEN traded back with PHIL for 2 #1s, it would be a bad thing?
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:51 AM   #13
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So if DEN traded back with PHIL for 2 #1s, it would be a bad thing?
Pre combine and workouts, I think Spikes, Cushing and Rey will all be top 15 picks. Trading back and getting an extra first, but having to settle for Laurinities (if HE'S even still available)... well I'm not in love with that idea.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:54 AM   #14
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spikes didnt come out....

I hope we acquire the right guys then switch to the 3-4.. I am homer enough to think that we have a bunch of good guys on D, we just need the right coaching and 1 more guy at each level.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:57 AM   #15
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Pre combine and workouts, I think Spikes, Cushing and Rey will all be top 15 picks. Trading back and getting an extra first, but having to settle for Laurinities (if HE'S even still available)... well I'm not in love with that idea.
Spikes is not coming out this year. Hes going back to FLA. I know, this really sucks. Now i am glad Dirty Sanchez is coming out, cause he will fill a spot ahead of #12, hopefully.......possibly.........maybe.

And i am not in love with trading back, but i think Cushing would be there, just outta needs of other teams.
Even if DEN didnt trade, back i think DEN is going to be very aggressive this offseason, just a hunch, i have no proof, but if the regime change is any indication that the team needs to get better, then Bowlen wont waste time in FA pissing and moaning over contract squabbles. I think if DEN wants Atogwe and Suggs, then they will just go get them, and make a splash in FA. Also, i think Nolan will have a big say in aquiring defensive talent from other teams, like SF or Balt.
Sorta like DEN has two coaches working towards fixing this issue.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:00 AM   #16
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Spikes is not coming out this year. Hes going back to FLA. I know, this really sucks. Now i am glad Dirty Sanchez is coming out, cause he will fill a spot ahead of #12, hopefully.......possibly.........maybe.

And i am not in love with trading back, but i think Cushing would be there, just outta needs of other teams.
Even if DEN didnt trade, back i think DEN is going to be very aggressive this offseason, just a hunch, i have no proof, but if the regime change is any indication that the team needs to get better, then Bowlen wont waste time in FA pissing and moaning over contract squabbles. I think if DEN wants Atogwe and Suggs, then they will just go get them, and make a splash in FA. Also, i think Nolan will have a big say in aquiring defensive talent from other teams, like SF or Balt.
Sorta like DEN has two coaches working towards fixing this issue.
Thanks to you and Ludo for the news on Spikes. I thought that was such a lock that there was no chance he'd stay like Mays. Well, that makes me sick and makes that #12 more valuable, imo.

Who knows though... over the next 3 months we'll have a LOT more risers and sliders.

Have you seen SF's FA list? Unless Singletary hits some cuts, it looks pretty devoid of talent.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:09 AM   #17
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McDaniels said he wanted to pick something and be consistent with it. And since Nolan and he have a background in the 3-4 more than the 4-3, a move makes sense.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:15 AM   #18
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Thanks to you and Ludo for the news on Spikes. I thought that was such a lock that there was no chance he'd stay like Mays. Well, that makes me sick and makes that #12 more valuable, imo.

Who knows though... over the next 3 months we'll have a LOT more risers and sliders.

Have you seen SF's FA list? Unless Singletary hits some cuts, it looks pretty devoid of talent.
Well, NT Ronald Fields could be a player that Nolan bring over for a 4th or 5th draft pick along with some talent from another team, like Chis Canty or Shaun Cody, and suddenly DEN has some players who can play the 3-4 for the D-line, and didnt require breaking the bank over.
You know, if DEN had one good NT, then the transition from there isnt so difficult.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:23 AM   #19
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Well, NT Ronald Fields could be a player that Nolan bring over for a 4th or 5th draft pick along with some talent from another team, like Chis Canty or Shaun Cody, and suddenly DEN has some players who can play the 3-4 for the D-line, and didnt require breaking the bank over.
You know, if DEN had one good NT, then the transition from there isnt so difficult.
And does this interfere with landing Otogwe? How closer are we to having a decent LB unit? Does this end up potentially costing us Brandon Marshall or Chris Kuper?
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:34 AM   #20
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And does this interfere with landing Otogwe? How closer are we to having a decent LB unit? Does this end up potentially costing us Brandon Marshall or Chris Kuper?
I dont think these players who would come via a pick and a cheap FA contract, would hamper DEN with still having enough FA money to go after Atogwe and Suggs. I asked Eddie Mac for a official # as to how much DEN has to spend in FA, but so far it varies between 30 and 41 MIL.
I think the LBs get solved with what DEN has right now and 1 or 2 drafted players.
yeah i guess next years FAs could play into the picture.
Bowlen has an "Accounting Dept." right!?!

I think actually DEN could run a pretty solid hybrid with a solid draft and FA.
I dont think it will be top 10, but i was always just figuring they were going for a 14-15 ranking, this coming year, and get better, over the course of the next couple drafts. Just my thought on the matter.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:39 AM   #21
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I dont think these players who would come via a pick and a cheap FA contract, would hamper DEN with still having enough FA money to go after Atogwe and Suggs. I asked Eddie Mac for a official # as to how much DEN has to spend in FA, but so far it varies between 30 and 41 MIL.
I think the LBs get solved with what DEN has right now and 1 or 2 drafted players.
yeah i guess next years FAs could play into the picture.
Bowlen has an "Accounting Dept." right!?!

I think actually DEN could run a pretty solid hybrid with a solid draft and FA.
I dont think it will be top 10, but i was always just figuring they were going for a 14-15 ranking, this coming year, and get better, over the course of the next couple drafts. Just my thought on the matter.
So you want Canty and an experimental nose, AND Otogwe and Suggs, a chunk for the rookie pool, and think we'd still have the money to be able to give the deserved extensions to Brandon and Kuper?
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:47 AM   #22
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So you want Canty and an experimental nose, AND Otogwe and Suggs, a chunk for the rookie pool, and think we'd still have the money to be able to give the deserved extensions to Brandon and Kuper?
1st, lets turn the frown upside down, em kay?
Quick question before i dig myself into this hole any further , can DEN "franchise" Marshall next year? Just askin..

Also, what is the official FA amount of $$ DEN has to spend?
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:56 AM   #23
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Sealing up Atogwe, taking a stud MLB in the first round, and then addressing depth at DE, and the secondary could go a LONG ways.

Pay for Atogwe. Extend Brandon and Kuper. See what you have left to at least test the waters with Peppers or Haynesworth.
This is probably the best bet. I haven't seen a lot of Raji so I don't know what the fuss is about. What don't you like about him?

Atogwe is key for us. Get somebody in at safety that can play the ball and it will help us tremendously. Get some guys that can bring some pressure and he'll be that much better. He has played quite well in St. Louis and they don't have much of a pass rush either. Seems like he is the real deal which leads me to wonder why the Rams would let him hit the open market?
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:03 AM   #24
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:04 AM   #25
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Everybody keeps talking about Suggs but I think the chances of landing him are remote. Most likely the Ravens let Ray Lewis go and keep the other two LB's, particularly in light of the story that the Cowboys are ready to make a run at him.

COWBOYS POISED TO MAKE A RUN AT RAY?
Posted by Mike Florio on January 20, 2009, 8:14 a.m. EST
We raised the possibility last year, when the brother of Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis signed a free-agent contract after the draft with the Dallas Cowboys.

Though Keon Lattimore didn’t stick in Texas, the fact remains that the Cowboys apparently want Lewis. (Lattimore, by the way, finished the 2008 season on the Jaguars’ practice squad.)

According to Mike Preston of the Baltimore Sun, there’s a rumor that the Cowboys are very interested in the veteran linebacker. The oddly-specific speculation is that the Cowboys are willing to give Lewis a three-year deal worth $27 million to $30 million, with $25 million guaranteed.

It would be a wise move for any team to chase Lewis. He is a natural leader, and he gets those around him to play with the same passion he possesses, regardless of injury or illness.

Since the Cowboys lack any real leadership from their current coaching staff, they need it wherever they can get it.

They’d get it from Lewis.

And we’d pay more money than the face value of a Super Bowl ticket to see the first “discussion” between Lewis and receiver Terrell Owens regarding the way things are now going to happen in Dallas.

That said, the Ravens surely won’t give up Lewis without a fight. They’ll be trying to sign him to a new deal, and they can always use the franchise tag to keep him in place.

But Lewis might be ready to move on. He had been clamoring for a new deal from time to time over the past four years; now that he has completed what the team had always described as his retirement deal, maybe he’ll want to retire from the Ravens and get paid big money by someone else.

Someone like the Cowboys.

Of course, it technically would be tampering for the Cowboys to contact Lewis directly before the start of the free agency period or to deliberately leak the intended contract offer in order to throw a wrench (or a knife) into the Ravens’ attempt to re-sign Lewis. But there’s a big difference between the stuff that technically is tampering and the stuff that actually results in a finding that tampering has occurred.


http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/...-a-run-at-ray/
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