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Old 01-19-2009, 10:45 PM   #1
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Default Clue that we are in fact switching to a 3-4?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3844396

Quote:
NFL teams were frothing over the workouts of Canadian Football League pass-rush specialist Cameron Wake, and the Miami Dolphins had to fork over a nice sum to land him.

The Dolphins signed Wake to what's believed to be the richest CFL-to-NFL contract: four years worth as much as $4.9 million and nearly $1 million in guaranteed money.

Wake, who is 260 pounds and amassed 39 sacks over the past two seasons for the B.C. Lions, will play outside linebacker in the Dolphins' 3-4 scheme and could be a dangerous force opposite Joey Porter.
And later in the article:

Quote:
Wake also worked out for the Indianapolis Colts, Denver Broncos and Arizona Cardinals among several other clubs.
Now this isn't proof, but why would we want another undersized defensive linemen if we were staying in the 4-3 if we already have Dumervil?
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:21 PM   #2
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Hmmm I don't know doesn't Ariz and Indy both run a 4-3?
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:22 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by cutthemdown View Post
Hmmm I don't know doesn't Ariz and Indy both run a 4-3?

Isnt Az transitioning to it?
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:25 PM   #4
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ummm not necessarily. its been said we will run whatever best fits the personnel, and at this point either is just as likely as the other, however we dont have any option at NT. either way, except to see atleast some improvement.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:38 PM   #5
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Do you think Denver will get anything out of Moss and Crowder in a 3-4?
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:44 PM   #6
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If Crowder and Moss work out in 3-4 wouldn't we be farther along overall talent wise vs 4-3?

Can someone do a side by side what Denver needs would be in 3-4 vs 4-3

in 4-3

I figure we need DE DT MLB both S positions upgraded.

3-4

NT both DE spots Both S spots ILB

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Old 01-19-2009, 11:58 PM   #7
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Denver simply does not have the personnel to run the 3-4 next year.

I see them running the 4-3 for a year or two, while compiling talent to run the 3-4.

As much as I want to see us transition to the 3-4, I just don't think it is realistic in 2009.

The 3-4 topic should not be brought up again until we find a suitable NT....and then we can build from there.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:04 AM   #8
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Interesting thread. Good catch. Maybe nothing, but these are the exact kinds of things that will give us our clues as the draft/FA approaches.

As for what we need to convert to a 3-4, our biggest problem is obviously at NT and LB. But, I had a thought...

Robertson and Thomas actually fit the bill for a 3-4 DE fairly well. They're both very agile, 300ish types that can hold up against the run and have have the ability to penetrate.

What about putting those guys out at the end spots and just signing a NT in FA, or drafting one?

We were also talking about Dumervil getting looks at OLB, potentially the weak side. I'm not sure if he covers enough ground, but it might be worth a look.

I hate DJ on the inside, but if we can get a true banger lined up next to him, maybe it works for the time being.

On the other side, we definitely have a problem. Boss Bailey is a joke, and Winborn isn't a 3-4 OLB, from what I can tell. (Sadly, because I think he's played fairly well.)


What do you guys think about moving our DTs out to end in a 3-4?
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:11 AM   #9
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From the previously posted breakdown on the 3-4...

Inside Linebackers (ILB):

In a 3-4 system, the SILB (strongside inside linebacker) and WILB (weakside inside linebacker) typically have slightly differing roles.

The primary concern of the SILB is to shed blocks and stop the run on the inside (Larson?) , whereas the WILB is a pass covering MLB who is also decent at run stuffing. (That does sound a little like DJ) Both need to be able to get to the outside when an outside run is featured.

The SILB does not need elite speed (Larson) - instead, he needs to be able to handle interior offensive lineman (A little undersized at 240?) , shed blocks, and get to the runner. The SILB also blitzes sometimes to create pressure up the middle.

The WILB is generally a smaller, faster version of the SILB who has skills in pass coverage. (DJ) Often times, he is one on one with a tight end, or drops back into zone coverage around the middle. He is also however decent at scraping blocks and stopping the run when needed. SILB need good hips and reaction in order to cover well.

Drafting interior linebackers for a 3-4 generally does not differ too much from drafting a 4-3 linebacker. A typical ILB will weigh in the 240-260lb range. Teams will look for MLB in a 4-3 who have certain characteristics of either a SILB or WILB. In addition, ILB who very physical are important, especially for the SILB, as most of the time they are matched up against lineman.
Characteristics and traits:
3-4 OLB have long arms (Dumervil does) , to keep blockers away while rushing.
Many 3-4 OLB have elite burst and acceleration (Elvis does, and does being in space help him avoid being locked up so often?)
A 3-4 OLB will typically weigh 240-275lbs. Their height can be anything, although a standard 3-4 OLB will typically be in the 6'2 to 6'6 range (Well, maybe a slight problem there.)


Anyway, stuff to think about.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
From the previously posted breakdown on the 3-4...

Inside Linebackers (ILB):

In a 3-4 system, the SILB (strongside inside linebacker) and WILB (weakside inside linebacker) typically have slightly differing roles.

The primary concern of the SILB is to shed blocks and stop the run on the inside (Larson?) , whereas the WILB is a pass covering MLB who is also decent at run stuffing. (That does sound a little like DJ) Both need to be able to get to the outside when an outside run is featured.

The SILB does not need elite speed (Larson) - instead, he needs to be able to handle interior offensive lineman (A little undersized at 240?) , shed blocks, and get to the runner. The SILB also blitzes sometimes to create pressure up the middle.

The WILB is generally a smaller, faster version of the SILB who has skills in pass coverage. (DJ) Often times, he is one on one with a tight end, or drops back into zone coverage around the middle. He is also however decent at scraping blocks and stopping the run when needed. SILB need good hips and reaction in order to cover well.

Drafting interior linebackers for a 3-4 generally does not differ too much from drafting a 4-3 linebacker. A typical ILB will weigh in the 240-260lb range. Teams will look for MLB in a 4-3 who have certain characteristics of either a SILB or WILB. In addition, ILB who very physical are important, especially for the SILB, as most of the time they are matched up against lineman.
Characteristics and traits:
3-4 OLB have long arms (Dumervil does) , to keep blockers away while rushing.
Many 3-4 OLB have elite burst and acceleration (Elvis does, and does being in space help him avoid being locked up so often?)
A 3-4 OLB will typically weigh 240-275lbs. Their height can be anything, although a standard 3-4 OLB will typically be in the 6'2 to 6'6 range (Well, maybe a slight problem there.)


Anyway, stuff to think about.
Good post. Makes me feel a bit more optimistic about the possible switch. Wont have to scrap nearly as many decent players than I first thought goin with what you have listed there.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:53 AM   #11
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I don't we'll know until much later because none of the coaching staff has any clue either.

Looking at the defensive personnel and trying to figure out the scheme they fit is something Slowik couldn't figure out the past two years.
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:50 AM   #12
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An effective 3-4 won't work until a big NT and pass rushing OLB's are found. Forget everything else, if you don't have those things, your 3-4 defense won't be very good.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryr View Post
An effective 3-4 won't work until a big NT and pass rushing OLB's are found. Forget everything else, if you don't have those things, your 3-4 defense won't be very good.
I think we could make most of the same argument for fixing our 4-3.

Regardless of 4-3, or 3-4 we need a huge D-Tackle to shore up our line. Someone mentioned in a previous thread about a Jacksonville-esque 4-3 and that would be great. However, when they were really good, they had Stroud and Henderson which were both over 310 and very strong.

And as far as OLB (or SAM), we still really need help there. Boss is only good in open space, Winborn is great at the play in front of him as long as he doesn't have to use his brain. However, we need a SAM that forces the TE to stay in and block, or one that could beat an offensive Tackle with a pass rush. Thats' why we need a Suggs type player even in a 4-3.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:35 AM   #14
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Getting back to respectability won't happen overnight.
Fit the scheme to the personnel, not vice versa.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:43 AM   #15
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From PFWeekly

Jan. 15, 2009 By Dan Parr

Broncos' McDaniels, Nolan prepare for 3-4 shift on defense


With Mike Nolan locked in as head coach Josh McDaniels’ defensive coordinator, the Broncos will shift completely to a 3-4 defense next season after experimenting with it in a limited capacity in 2008. Although McDaniels, the former Patriots O-coordinator, isn’t experienced in coaching defense, he plans to be heavily involved in that side of things. Sources in Denver say it won’t be a case of Nolan serving as a defensive “head coach” while McDaniels, 32, stays out of his way. There are some questions about the feasibility of a quick transition from a 4-3 to 3-4 in Denver since a massive overhaul in personnel usually is necessitated by a change in schemes. In the Broncos’ case, though, regardless of scheme, sweeping changes were necessary well before McDaniels and Nolan came to town. Denver was ranked 29th in defense last season, and sources say a rebuilding effort is overdue.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackGuy View Post
Getting back to respectability won't happen overnight.
Fit the scheme to the personnel, not vice versa.
Part of the point is, we need new personnel anyway. 3-4 or 4-3 is somewhat of a moot point because some of our roster needs to be purged talent-wise and production-wise.

It will be a fun couple months of free-agency/draft to see where this team is headed.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Popps View Post
A 3-4 OLB will typically weigh 240-275lbs. Their height can be anything, although a standard 3-4 OLB will typically be in the 6'2 to 6'6 range (Well, maybe a slight problem there.)
Elvis Dumervil, 5'11, 260 lbs.
James Harrison, 6'0, 242 lbs.
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:33 AM   #18
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I wouldnt mind seeing a Doom, Larsen, DJ, draft pick... look at the LB'ers...
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:13 AM   #19
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Elvis Dumervil, 5'11, 260 lbs.
James Harrison, 6'0, 242 lbs.
James Harrison 6'0" 242
DJ Williams 6'1" 242. ? ? ?
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEH View Post
From PFWeekly

Jan. 15, 2009 By Dan Parr

Broncos' McDaniels, Nolan prepare for 3-4 shift on defense


With Mike Nolan locked in as head coach Josh McDaniels’ defensive coordinator, the Broncos will shift completely to a 3-4 defense next season after experimenting with it in a limited capacity in 2008. Although McDaniels, the former Patriots O-coordinator, isn’t experienced in coaching defense, he plans to be heavily involved in that side of things. Sources in Denver say it won’t be a case of Nolan serving as a defensive “head coach” while McDaniels, 32, stays out of his way. There are some questions about the feasibility of a quick transition from a 4-3 to 3-4 in Denver since a massive overhaul in personnel usually is necessitated by a change in schemes. In the Broncos’ case, though, regardless of scheme, sweeping changes were necessary well before McDaniels and Nolan came to town. Denver was ranked 29th in defense last season, and sources say a rebuilding effort is overdue.


"Obviously we'll have to adjust the personnel some," said Jim Goodman, who runs the Broncos' player personnel department. "(McDaniels) may want to do a hybrid type thing where he goes to a 4-3 some."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11447165

If you're looking for tells, "we'll have to adjust some" is a fairly strong clue. ("We will" sounds somewhat like a clue.)

"They may have personnel that is more suited for one scheme, but you may want to start to go toward another," McDaniels said during his news conference Monday. "There are going to have to be some decisions made in the near future with where we want to go here in the long term. We want to have a consistent scheme."


So, it all still sounds unsure. I'd expect to see a hybrid out there, but we'll know shortly. FA personnel moves will tell it all.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:30 PM   #21
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we just hired the chargers dline coach too..... he coaches the 3-4


If the Broncos are going to learn how to play the 3-4 defense, they better get some coaches who can teach it.

Wayne Nunnely can not only coach the 3-4, he guided the vaunted defensive line of the rival San Diego Chargers for the past 12 years.

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.

"It's a change that I felt I needed to do at this stage of my career," said Nunnely, 56. "I've had a great 12 years here with the Chargers through three or four different head coaches and a number of coordinators and I just felt like I needed a new challenge, a new environment."

After coaching such natural 3-4 linemen as noseguard Jamal Williams, tackle Luis Castillo and end Igor Olshansky with the Chargers in recent years, Nunnely's challenge with the Broncos will be to both find new D-line personal, and teach alternate techniques to existing players who are accustomed to playing in the 4-3 defense.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com



this should be it's own thread. I assume it is somewhere? couldn't find it. knowing this place there will be 6 threads on it shortly anyways, so I'll just post here.

good news! roids for everyone!

Last edited by OABB; 01-20-2009 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Hmmm I don't know doesn't Ariz and Indy both run a 4-3?
And exactly when did AZ have time to work out some CFL guy?

Boldin's already P-O'd at management, and Dansby is a UFA ... so the last thing they need is to distract everybody by trying out some Canadian wannabe
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:38 PM   #23
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we just hired the chargers dline coach too..... he coaches the 3-4

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.
Wow ... nice hire. That deserves its own thread, obb.

I guess the 3-4 is the future.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:53 PM   #24
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the rev said we aren't changing, the rev is smarter than everyone on the intra nets anywasy, so ignore the chargers 3 - 4 d-line coach.
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Old 01-20-2009, 03:01 PM   #25
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the rev said we aren't changing, the rev is smarter than everyone on the intra nets anywasy, so ignore the chargers 3 - 4 d-line coach.
Knucklehead ... Rev said MAYBE we won't switch, and he laid out some decent reasons why we might not.

Just stop.
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