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Old 01-07-2009, 06:25 PM   #1
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Default The Official Why We Think Firing Mike was a Bad Decision Thread

Naturally, I can't speak for everyone that agrees with me on this, but I'm going to anyways. Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind. Yes, we will be behind the next regime and no we will not pull any "I told you so" cards. We're BRONCO fans first, after all. Now, I'll highlight to the best of my ability, why I believe the Shanahan move was a bad idea. I'll also bring up the arguments that have been posed at me for why he should have been fired and give explanations to those.

So please, before posting any stupid, disparaging comments about Shanahan or the offense of how defense sucks etc, just read through this quick post and it may very well have already posed a counter argument that might even make your end of the discussion more intelligent.

Without further ado...


"The offense sucks!"

-Absolutely false. #2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

Mediator, a great poster even threw this one at me: "Yeah, but we're only 16th in scoring"

-Which is silly because he knows better. Short fields are what puts points on the board and Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin. The top scoring teams are a very good blend of the top offensive rankings and top takeaways.

The next poster commenting on the offense even said that we weren't good on third down versus Jake Plummer

-2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.

Here's a popular one: "Shanahan can't field a good defense!"

-Actually, not remotely true. Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.

"The defense sucks. We need a defensively minded coach!"

-Then maybe you'll find this interesting. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

"One playoff win in a decade"

-This IS a decent argument. During this decade, the AFC HAS been the dominant conference. The only coaches to have gone as far without Tom Brady or Peyton Manning were Bill Cowher (7 play off wins, 2 AFFCG appearances, 1 SB win), Brian Billick (5 play off wins, 1 SB win), Fischer (5 play off wins, 1 SB appearance, 0 play off wins in a longgggggg time) and recently Norval (2 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance)

For those that are curious: Dungy has posted 7 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance, and 1 SB win. Belicek has won 14 ****in play off games, 3 Superbowls, 1 AFCCG appearance, 1 SB appearance.

"Well Mike built this mess"

-True, but it's also widely known that he heavily relies on his staff, despite no official "GM". Reference the improvements in the drafts since his exit.

"We got blown out in the AFCCG"

-Yes. Which lead to a ballsy move in scrapping the team. Players need to execute and many were in place for game changing plays. Champ had a pick bounce off his hands (excusable considering the shoulder harness). Nick Ferguson nearly got hit in the helmet wide open. And, naturally, the offense showed it didn't have the firepower. So, instead of making the safe move and beefing the defense with stacked draft picks, he went for something his always competitive record never lent him to, a franchise QB. Which leads us to...

"The defense has sucked the past 2 years"

-Yes it has. I'm 100% sure everyone's aware of this. Al Wilson's injury hurt severely and it's hardly something you can see coming or plan for. The FA market has been bare on the defensive side of the ball, and the few players who have even been moderately above average at need spots for Denver have been paid gaudy amounts of money (reference Gibril Wilson and Tommy Kelly in Oakland).

"Okay, why not recently drafting defensive talent?"

-If you just got a franchise quarterback, you want to put all the tools around him to succeed. Three years of draft picks

Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Dumerville, Hixon, Kuper, Eslinger, Myers, Moss, Crowder, Harris, Thomas, Clady, Royal, Lichtensteiger, Williams, Torain, Powell, Larsen, Barrett, Hillis.

That's 21 picks, 67% to the offensive side of the ball. Of the other 33% only 2 were picked before round 4, and one rookie was on the IR all season at a need position.

"He should've drafted more on defense early"

-Then who would you like to give up? Cutler? Clady? Royal? Scheffler?

"He busted on Moss and Crowder"

-Maybe. It certainly doesn't look good for them, right NOW. Regardless, it's been pretty obvious that the last three drafts were on the Goodmans. That was confirmed at the press conference when Mike gave credit to them (not scapegoating because those last three drafts were brilliant on the whole), and they still have their jobs, but are every bit as responsible for the state of the D.

"Then what about the defense going forward? We need someone who can fix it!"

-Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense. We have more a ****load of cap room in a FA period that's richer on D than any I can remember. We also have a ****load of draft picks with an offense that's already loaded. The situation is ripe for a FAST turnaround for the defense.

"Travis Henry. Javon Walker"

-Javon Walker was a great player here until his final knee injury that required microfracture surgery and destroyed his career. He also did some good damage to Oak's cap on the way out

-Travis Henry was a DOMINANT player the prior year in Tenn and a sought after FA. Anyone that claims they knew he'd have the dozen injuries the following season, pop the drug test, and father 100 kids before the signing is full of ****.

That might just be everything, though I'm sure someone will have plenty to say about it. Feel free. This wasn't to change your mind. Just to explain our position.

Lastly, if you think myself, Taco, SoCal, Sureshot, ColonelBeef and a few others are irritating because we share this belief, keep in mind it's not nearly as irritating as the sheer volume of weasely, follow the crowd, traitors that many of you have turned out to be as evidenced by the following PUBLIC polls.

First poll 12-22
81% Mike stays 19% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

Second poll (day after charger game, so I can understand a few turning) 12-29
72% Mike stays 28% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

Third poll (Day of firing-AFTER firing) 12-30
44% Mike stays 56% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75595

Final poll 1-5
39% Mike stays 61% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75855

So, from the end of the season (after Charger game), 33% of Shanahan supporters have jumped shipped for no other reason than Pat Bowlen saying "I have terminated Mike Shanahan"

The end.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:26 PM   #2
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It is a great decision to fire. so get over it and STFU
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:27 PM   #3
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Denver writers: feel free to steal whatever makes your job easier than the usual copy and paste you do from the Mane.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:28 PM   #4
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It is a great decision to fire. so get over it and STFU
Very intelligent post!
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:29 PM   #5
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You know, you're on to something. Send it to Pat, I'm sure after he's done reading it he'll beg Mike to come back.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:30 PM   #6
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Hmmm... long initial post, almost too long, but a change was needed. I grew tired of the mediocrity.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:32 PM   #7
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You know, you're on to something. Send it to Pat, I'm sure after he's done reading it he'll beg Mike to come back.
You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:33 PM   #8
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At first I was extremely unhappy with the firing, but now I'm starting to think it was the right move.

The simple fact of the matter was that Shanny had too much power, which had led to a "good ole boy" system in the coaching ranks and took away from his ability to effectively coach. Unfortunately Shanny wasn't going to give up that power so we'll have to go another way.

I'm sure that a change of scenery will be good for the Broncos and Shanny. If Shanny resumes coaching, I'm sure he'll bring success to whichever team he is with.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.
You're right. But you know what is hard to see? Why you're still so latched on to this whole thing. Guess what? It happened. I expected a degree of b****ing and moaning and pleading after the firing, but I expected it to end by now. I guess not.

This thread was kind of a waste of energy. Although I did enjoy the Waiting clip.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:41 PM   #10
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You're right. But you know what is hard to see? Why you're still so latched on to this whole thing. Guess what? It happened. I expected a degree of b****ing and moaning and pleading after the firing, but I expected it to end by now. I guess not.

This thread was kind of a waste of energy. Although I did enjoy the Waiting clip.
Nothing about this thread is remotely b****ing. In fact, it's meant to explain to the people b****ing AT US for actually having a pair WHY we still believe he's the right man for the guy, unlike the near half of the ****ing orangemane who jumped ship for no reason whatsoever.

Why "latched"? Because every ****ing thread is "WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY" and then stupid false comments about Shanahan. Ignorant statements left and right. There ARE points to made for his firing, but I'll be damned if they aren't few and far between. So that's WHY. One thread, where it's all answered and can be addressed.

Now, if you'd like to add something smart to the discussion, by all means, do so.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:44 PM   #11
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Very intelligent post!
Yes it is.. may be you are a kind of guy.. who still has love for you had for the girl across ur house, the college sweet heart and all... get over the past and try to move forward.

He was a good coach , but it is time for broncos to move on. If it still makes u think it is not good. go up to one of the mountains and scream as loud as u can for as long as u can or just sleep
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverend View Post
Nothing about this thread is remotely b****ing. In fact, it's meant to explain to the people b****ing AT US for actually having a pair WHY we still believe he's the right man for the guy, unlike the near half of the ****ing orangemane who jumped ship for no reason whatsoever.

Why "latched"? Because every ****ing thread is "WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY" and then stupid false comments about Shanahan. Ignorant statements left and right. There ARE points to made for his firing, but I'll be damned if they aren't few and far between. So that's WHY. One thread, where it's all answered and can be addressed.

Now, if you'd like to add something smart to the discussion, by all means, do so.
Noble. However, in the threads I hang out in, mostly news updates about the coaching searches, the Shanahan debates have been started by those who think the firing was a bad idea. Usually like:

Quote:
I just hope we hired the best guy out there!
Poster who thinks the firing was a mistake: We just fired him! Har Har Har!
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:49 PM   #13
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Noble. However, in the threads I hang out in, mostly news updates about the coaching searches, the Shanahan debates have been started by those who think the firing was a bad idea. Usually like:


Poster who thinks the firing was a mistake: We just fired him! Har Har Har!
Feel free to show a few examples?
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:50 PM   #14
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Yes it is.. may be you are a kind of guy.. who still has love for you had for the girl across ur house, the college sweet heart and all... get over the past and try to move forward.

He was a good coach , but it is time for broncos to move on. If it still makes u think it is not good. go up to one of the mountains and scream as loud as u can for as long as u can or just sleep
Not quite... I just have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. If you disagree, feel free to address the OP. Otherwise, keep your baseless stupidity in a diff thread, please.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:53 PM   #15
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Not quite... I just have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. If you disagree, feel free to address the OP. Otherwise, keep your baseless stupidity in a diff thread, please.
If you made up some stupid argument and want others only to praise it.. go host yourself at another site
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:56 PM   #16
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If you made up some stupid argument and want others only to praise it.. go host yourself at another site
No. It's a thread explaining my (and by extension, some others) points of view on the biggest decision in the Denver Broncos organization in a decade.

If you think that belongs on another site, then I think you're a little confused on what the point of the Orangemane.com is and might want to get a remedial education. Judging from your conversational skills, might I suggest you start at Pre-K?
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:59 PM   #17
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Well Reverend now I know where you've been the last couple of hours. That's a nice piece of work there.
I have been one of the guys that continually voted for Mike to have one more season. I have recently changed my mind on that and now agree with the firing and my reasons are quite simple. I commend Mike for what he has accomplished on the O side of the ball and what he has orchestrated with the Goodmans with the last three drafts on O, I do think in those two areas he had us moving in the right direction. His downfall IMO is his inability to address the D. That side of the ball has become worse and worse over the last 3 seasons and with the promise to Slowik it appears that it will not turn around anytime soon. Windows of opportunity are narrow in todays NFL. We can't afford to have a wait and see approach with the D because Mike has shown glaring weakness there with bad drafts and his insane intention to keep Slowik. In short he really forced Bowlen's hand. I truly believe we will be a better team with Mike gone and it does pain me to say so. There will never be a proving of either side on this so thanks for all the work on this thread and this is my take...
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:01 PM   #18
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These are fine lists of counter arguments. Largely they look backwards, with hindsight, to justify their positions.

But the real argument is whether Shanahan is the best coach going forward. So with that, let me ask a few questions:

What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?

Do you believe Shanahan would have fired Slowik? Can you justify keeping him?

What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?

What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?

There are more questions like these, but the point is, the onus is on Shanny-defenders to provide a credible argument that looks forward (and without resorting to what's already worked well (Cutler/offense), as it didn't work well enough).
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:02 PM   #19
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get over it already
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:05 PM   #20
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These are fine lists of counter arguments. Largely they look backwards, with hindsight, to justify their positions.

But the real argument is whether Shanahan is the best coach going forward. So with that, let me ask a few questions:

What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?

Do you believe Shanahan would have fired Slowik? Can you justify keeping him?

What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?

What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?

There are more questions like these, but the point is, the onus is on Shanny-defenders to provide a credible argument that looks forward (and without resorting to what's already worked well (Cutler/offense), as it didn't work well enough).
I answered every single one of those questions in the OP aside from if I believe he would have kept/fired Slowik, and the answer is simply, "I don't know". We DO have reason to believe, however, that he would've made the right choice considering his track record is extremely good on the defensive side of the ball through his career.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:06 PM   #21
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Well Reverend now I know where you've been the last couple of hours. That's a nice piece of work there.
I have been one of the guys that continually voted for Mike to have one more season. I have recently changed my mind on that and now agree with the firing and my reasons are quite simple. I commend Mike for what he has accomplished on the O side of the ball and what he has orchestrated with the Goodmans with the last three drafts on O, I do think in those two areas he had us moving in the right direction. His downfall IMO is his inability to address the D. That side of the ball has become worse and worse over the last 3 seasons and with the promise to Slowik it appears that it will not turn around anytime soon. Windows of opportunity are narrow in todays NFL. We can't afford to have a wait and see approach with the D because Mike has shown glaring weakness there with bad drafts and his insane intention to keep Slowik. In short he really forced Bowlen's hand. I truly believe we will be a better team with Mike gone and it does pain me to say so. There will never be a proving of either side on this so thanks for all the work on this thread and this is my take...
I addressed your concerns in the OP. You can take them up from there if you'd like, Baja.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:09 PM   #22
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Naturally, I can't speak for everyone that agrees with me on this, but I'm going to anyways.

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Old 01-07-2009, 07:12 PM   #23
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I agree with your stupid argument.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:12 PM   #24
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Shanahan took his firing like a man. Some of the fans might want to do the same.
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Old 01-07-2009, 07:15 PM   #25
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Shanahan took his firing like a man. Some of the fans might want to do the same.
Who's not?
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