Cutler vs Elway - Arm Strength

[cutlerfan]

http://fftoday.com/articles/waldman/...erspective.htm

Cutler vs. Elway

I mentioned in my 20/20 Hindsight column this week that I would provide an argument in favor of Jay Cutler’s claim that he throws harder than John Elway. My little brother Marcus, a recent graduate of mathematics and atmospheric sciences at the University of Colorado, is currently serving a two-year contract for Teach for America in the Atlanta school system before he goes to graduate school and studies more Will Hunting-like mathematics. Marcus told me he thought Cutler was right, so I asked him to provide us some evidence. Here’s his response:

Well essentially it boils down to who can throw the ball the furthest.

Ignoring air resistance, assuming that the ball has an initial trajectory angle of 45 degrees (for maximum distance), and assuming a symmetric flight path (i.e. it lands at the same height as it started [which we know is wrong because it leaves Cutlers body at about 6 feet]) then the equation for the speed simplifies to:

|v| = sqrt( x_f * g )

Where |v| is the initial speed leaving the arm
x_f is the distance the ball traveled horizontally
g is the gravitational acceleration constant.

I had a friend tell me that Cutler threw the ball 81 yards during training camp, and Elway threw it something like 76 during the QB competition. So just based off that you know that Cutler has a stronger arm.

Of course this analysis wouldn't stand up in court, but hey physics is fun.

So there’s the conversation starter. Any of you math-physics nuts want to add to the point or help us arrive at a more plausible method of calculation, be my guest.

Next week, more season grades for Mike and me at WR and TE.

Good luck with your teams this weekend. So far, I’m still alive in three of the six leagues I made the playoffs – two expert auction leagues and one 40-man roster, dynasty/IDP league.

[OOJack]

haha, i read that too. The trajectory assumption nullifies the argument. There's no way to know what the trajectory of each throw was...

Thank the lord, we are lucky enough to have watched them both in Orange and Blue!

[hades]

A simple arm wrestling contest would end this discussion.

[Al Wilson]

Cutler does have a good arm, but he doesn't set his feet sometimes. Elway always set his feet for his deep throws in games, and no way Cutler beats him. Elway had great technique. If Cutler does improve his technique and set his feet then his deep balls will actually work for once.

[hades]

I remember the Elway Cross, has anyone on the current team mentioned a Cutler cross when catching a ball to the chest (sans pads, in camp/training)

[Garcia Bronco]

Anybody remember the gravitational constant. Isn't it 1.8 something?

[Jason in LA]

It's funny that the guy gives us that NASA like equation, and then boiled it down to a friend of his saying that Cutler threw the ball 81 yards in practice and Elway something like 76 yards in a competition. I thought that equation was going to spit something out that proved the point.

We'll never know who really had the strong arm. I'd say that it doesn't really matter.

There is that video of Elway when he was in high school. When he scrambled way back to the 10 yard line, then launched the ball, and the guy caught it on the other 10 yard line. That was pretty impressive.

[cutlerfan]

I was a QB in college.

Here is what matters.

Spin and rotation - How tight the spiral.

Release - Do you release it by your helmet or side armed like Rivers and Romo?

Angle - Do you throw it on a line or do you arch it and let it come down?

Listen to the TV with Surround Sound if you have it - when Jay throws the ball and it hits the receivers. No one else in the NFL makes that "smack" sound like Jay does.

I think Elway threw with more of a whipping(think of smacking a whip), trunk rotation than Jay does.

[cutthemdown]

Elway threw harder then he did far. He didn't throw the type of long ball like say a Terry Bradshaw who really put some air under it. Elway believed the quickest point between him and the WR was a straight like. He would throw the ball 40 yrds with very little arc.

[cutthemdown]

only way to really know would be to have a WR that played with Elway when he was in his prime, and Cutler now to tell us what he thinks. Since we don't have that we really can't do it.

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by cutlerfan

I was a QB in college.

Here is what matters.

Spin and rotation - How tight the spiral.

Release - Do you release it by your helmet or side armed like Rivers and Romo?

Angle - Do you throw it on a line or do you arch it and let it come down?

Listen to the TV with Surround Sound if you have it - when Jay throws the ball and it hits the receivers. No one else in the NFL makes that "smack" sound like Jay does.

You are not suggesting that is a subjective formula for figuring out arm strength are you? All that tells you is if the mechanics are correct, and the ball is well thrown...as to the "smack", that is subjective and gives little info even with a sensitive sound meter.

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

only way to really know would be to have a WR that played with Elway when he was in his prime, and Cutler now to tell us what he thinks. Since we don't have that we really can't do it.

And even then, it would be like asking a MLB catcher to distinguish between a 99 mph fastball and a 100 mph fastball.....with 15 years of "time off" between the two pitches. Impossible.

[hades]

We need Mythbusters to figure this out, or Time Warp. They can use old footage for Elway, paste up one of those marker boards to show distance and see who threw it faster. Faster = harder in this case.

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Elway threw harder then he did far... with very little arc.

Exactly the point. The arc in the end will define the distance travelled with two arms of similar strength. Hell, even a weaker arm with better arc will travel further, when we are talking about decent NFL arms. Rivers is by far one of the weakest arms and poor releases in the NFL (but quick release), but he can throw it deep if he has to and has the time. His balls just take a long time to get there (relatively speaking) because of the arc.

[cutlerfan]

Originally Posted by Merlin

You are not suggesting that is a subjective formula for figuring out arm strength are you? All that tells you is if the mechanics are correct, and the ball is well thrown...as to the "smack", that is subjective and gives little info even with a sensitive sound meter.

No I am not saying that this helps with arm strength - but it will help the ball go farther especially when you throw a spiral it is less wind resistance.

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by cutlerfan

No I am not saying that this helps with arm strength - but it will help the ball go farther especially when you throw a spiral it is less wind resistance.

My bad...agreed

[DomCasual]

Either one of them could throw the ball over them mountains.

[cutlerfan]

Originally Posted by DomCasual

Either one of them could throw the ball over them mountains.

They both went to Uncle Rico Camp

[Broncosfreak_56]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Anybody remember the gravitational constant. Isn't it 1.8 something?

-9.81 meters per second squared.

[cutlerfan]

Originally Posted by Merlin

My bad...agreed

It is all good

The Angle is a factor too because if you throw it too high and it gets caught in the wind like at Solider field it is not going far; but if you throw it on a rope like both can and did it will help.

This may not make sense but I remember in college throwing the ball high and straight and it went the direction the wind was blowing not where I wanted it.

[Bronco Yoda]

Originally Posted by cutlerfan

I was a QB in college.

Here is what matters.

Spin and rotation - How tight the spiral.

Release - Do you release it by your helmet or side armed like Rivers and Romo?

Angle - Do you throw it on a line or do you arch it and let it come down?

Listen to the TV with Surround Sound if you have it - when Jay throws the ball and it hits the receivers. No one else in the NFL makes that "smack" sound like Jay does.

I think Elway threw with more of a whipping(think of smacking a whip), trunk rotation than Jay does.

Are you old enough to have even watched Elway in his prime?

[goldengopher1976]

Perhaps a more interesting and compelling conversation could be had discussing which of the two is the better scrambler...I don't know, most of these comparisons seem fruitless to me. I'll agree with whoever it was that said they were simply happy both played in Orange and Blue.

[Houshyamama]

Originally Posted by Broncosfreak_56

-9.81 meters per second squared.

that's acceleration due to gravity. (on earth)

gravitational constant is 6.67300 × 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2

edit, that didn't copy paste very well:

here you go

[Peoples Champ]

I wish Cutler never would have said this, or at least the media never gotten ahold of it.

[tsiguy96]

Originally Posted by goldengopher1976

Perhaps a more interesting and compelling conversation could be had discussing which of the two is the better scrambler...I don't know, most of these comparisons seem fruitless to me. I'll agree with whoever it was that said they were simply happy both played in Orange and Blue.

i think cutler appears to have better pocket presence, his little side step when he was in the end zone being attacked by the chief was amazing. im not sure whos faster and i was really young when elway played so i dont remember if he lowered his shoulder and hit anyone in front of him like cutler...its amazing how similar these two guys are.