Do you support an auto bailout?

[Meck77]

Yes, No, or maybe

[Rank&File]

all depends on the framework...they need a COMPLETE overhaul.

[Pseudofool]

---

Repost, because it's relevant here:

Bankruptcy would be great in normal circumstances; but there's no way GM, etc. is going to get financing to absolve their debts with the credit frozen.

This is about stopping a general cascade of american businesses failing. I don't think anyone anticipates this will save the company, but it could delay it's need to go bankrupt for a couple years until credit is no longer frozen.

I'm not sure why anyone would think other industries will emerge to higher low-skilled American workers. We're too expensive. The only way we can employ our populace is to keep the jobs we have here, even if it means running a huge deficit for a number of years.

[Pseudofool]

Another point: Imagine how much better things would be for GM if they didn't have their healthcare bill or their pensions to pay out. Something to consider for people who are against socialized medicine or are for letting social security dry up.

[W*GS]

Imagine how much better it would be if every time a company got into trouble (of their own making, mind you!), it could count on taxpayers to rescue them.

[ak1971]

Let them file Ch 11.

I can see the headlines in a couple days though..GM buys small struggling bank and applies for TARP funds

[The Lone Bolt]

Only for GM and only because the Chevy Volt is too important to let die.

Even then, with some heavy strings attached.

[bronco militia]

Originally Posted by ak1971

Let them file Ch 11.

I can see the headlines in a couple days though..GM buys small struggling bank and applies for TARP funds

yep

[Pseudofool]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Imagine how much better it would be if every time a company got into trouble (of their own making, mind you!), it could count on taxpayers to rescue them.

You must realize that's very shallow inference to draw.

[Crushaholic]

No way, no how, no siree... They are private companies and the government doesn't need to be meddling...

[Denver Crush]

Maybe if they would have gotten ahead of the curve with their products like the Japanese auto industry I'd have some sympathy. They wanted to bleed us dry with huge 2 mpg vehicles. They need to ask the oil companies for a bail out.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by Denver Crush

They need to ask the oil companies for a bail out.

Best idea yet. Those ****ing a-holes had record profits.

[TailgateNut]

Who started the "Buy a Giant SUV" get a "tax credit/deduction" thingy. That didn't help. I can't recall the exact details, but it prodded the manufacturers to continue building behemoths.

[alkemical]

Here's a question i have:

I've heard people support the Auto Bailout - due to the fact of "buy american...support american companies".

If i'm going to support, american work - shouldn't i support car companies that use american materials, and american labor? If i "support" GM/Ford etc - with their plants in CAN & MX - what good is it doing me? If i buy honda, hyundia, etc - aren't i using american materials, and labor - thus support american jobs and workers?

[Pseudofool]

Originally Posted by amesj523

Here's a question i have:

I've heard people support the Auto Bailout - due to the fact of "buy american...support american companies".

If i'm going to support, american work - shouldn't i support car companies that use american materials, and american labor? If i "support" GM/Ford etc - with their plants in CAN & MX - what good is it doing me? If i buy honda, hyundia, etc - aren't i using american materials, and labor - thus support american jobs and workers?

Are you really suggesting that Honda has more American workers than GM?

[bronclvr]

Originally Posted by Denver Crush

Maybe if they would have gotten ahead of the curve with their products like the Japanese auto industry I'd have some sympathy. They wanted to bleed us dry with huge 2 mpg vehicles. They need to ask the oil companies for a bail out.

American Automakers only build the Cars (until this last Year) that sell-they have only responded to what the Public buys, while keeping an eye on where the most profitable avenues are-GM has the capability to offer Fuel efficient Cars-they already do in many, many Countries.

http://www.opel.ie/action/go?cntryCd...la&nav=catwalk

They have recently introduced to Dealers Vehicles that will fill in niches (new, small Pickups that get great gas mileage that are built on Car Chassis, for example).

The American public has had the wool over their eyes for a long time (Toyota, Honda and the rest) have done a great PR job, and we have bought it hook, line and sinker (and we think we are smarter). Today's American made Cars are more than a match for the stuff coming out of Japan-

Ford Motor Co. supplanted Toyota as leader of the pack in J.D. Power and Associates’ annual initial quality rankings released Wednesday, grabbing more individual awards than any other automaker for the first time since 1998, when it tied for the top spot.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/

Granted, they won't win every Year, and all Manufacturers' have a bad Year here and there, but the qualtiy of product coming out of Detriot is on par with anything in it's class-

And, as I pointed out in the other Thread, give the American Automakers the same Subsidies that the foreign Automakers (read: Japanese) obtain and then let's see how it goes-

[The Lone Bolt]

Originally Posted by bronclvr

American Automakers only build the Cars (until this last Year) that sell-they have only responded to what the Public buys, while keeping an eye on where the most profitable avenues are-GM has the capability to offer Fuel efficient Cars-they already do in many, many Countries.

http://www.opel.ie/action/go?cntryCd...la&nav=catwalk

They have recently introduced to Dealers Vehicles that will fill in niches (new, small Pickups that get great gas mileage that are built on Car Chassis, for example).

The American public has had the wool over their eyes for a long time (Toyota, Honda and the rest) have done a great PR job, and we have bought it hook, line and sinker (and we think we are smarter). Today's American made Cars are more than a match for the stuff coming out of Japan-

Ford Motor Co. supplanted Toyota as leader of the pack in J.D. Power and Associates’ annual initial quality rankings released Wednesday, grabbing more individual awards than any other automaker for the first time since 1998, when it tied for the top spot.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/

Granted, they won't win every Year, and all Manufacturers' have a bad Year here and there, but the qualtiy of product coming out of Detriot is on par with anything in it's class-

And, as I pointed out in the other Thread, give the American Automakers the same Subsidies that the foreign Automakers (read: Japanese) obtain and then let's see how it goes-

It's not Japanese PR. American cars have been complete shyte until recently. They still have a long way to go to win back consumers.

[bronclvr]

Originally Posted by The Lone Bolt

It's not Japanese PR. American cars have been complete shyte until recently. They still have a long way to go to win back consumers.

Lonebolt,

I respect your opinion-even if I had to drive a substandard Car (which I don't) I'd still only buy American-luckily, my Kids understand the reasons why, and that's all they drive too-

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Pseudofool

Are you really suggesting that Honda has more American workers than GM?

Nope, what i'm saying is that the "American" companies ship many jobs to CA & MX - laying off lots of workers. Then you have the "foreign" car companies using American Steel, american labor, etc.

Why should i support...an "American" company that doesn't show any loyalty to it's buyers, or it's workers. When i can buy a "foreign" car that has more % of american workers and product in it.

Are you suggesting to me that GM didn't move the camaro production to CA (outside of toronto i thought), etc.

That's the point i'm making.

Just like i'm telling you now. I believe there is a day when Hershey's Candy isn't made in Hershey, PA anymore.

[gyldenlove]

Originally Posted by bronclvr

American Automakers only build the Cars (until this last Year) that sell-they have only responded to what the Public buys, while keeping an eye on where the most profitable avenues are-GM has the capability to offer Fuel efficient Cars-they already do in many, many Countries.

http://www.opel.ie/action/go?cntryCd...la&nav=catwalk

They have recently introduced to Dealers Vehicles that will fill in niches (new, small Pickups that get great gas mileage that are built on Car Chassis, for example).

The American public has had the wool over their eyes for a long time (Toyota, Honda and the rest) have done a great PR job, and we have bought it hook, line and sinker (and we think we are smarter). Today's American made Cars are more than a match for the stuff coming out of Japan-

Ford Motor Co. supplanted Toyota as leader of the pack in J.D. Power and Associates’ annual initial quality rankings released Wednesday, grabbing more individual awards than any other automaker for the first time since 1998, when it tied for the top spot.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19073071/

Granted, they won't win every Year, and all Manufacturers' have a bad Year here and there, but the qualtiy of product coming out of Detriot is on par with anything in it's class-

And, as I pointed out in the other Thread, give the American Automakers the same Subsidies that the foreign Automakers (read: Japanese) obtain and then let's see how it goes-

You are selling marketing very short. If you think the consumer decides what gets produced you are due for a very sudden wakeup call.

The car makers produce cars that are cheap, and the job of selling them is down to the marketing department. If you keep telling people they need a 300 BHP 6L V8 engine to drive their kids to school and pick up groceries, eventually they will believe you.

If you compare the technology in the Mustang to the technology in the BMW M3 or the Nissan GTR or the Mitsubishi Evo. The Mustang doesn't have independent suspension, limited slip differential, it has a huge steel frame instead of an aluminum space frame. Ford pickups doesn't have low range gear boxes, coil spring suspension, lockable differentials. American cars are build with ancient technology because it makes them cheaper, it also makes them less competitive in terms of performance and mileage. The GTR has twice the power of the 4.6L V8 Mustang, and yet has slightly better mileage, not to mention if you race them the Nissan will run circles around the Mustang.

The American auto sector spends a lot more on marketing and marketing research than they do on development and design.

[frerottenextelway]

Originally Posted by ak1971

Let them file Ch 11.

I can see the headlines in a couple days though..GM buys small struggling bank and applies for TARP funds

There would be no Chap. 11, they would go into Chap. 7, which is the problem here.

[The Lone Bolt]

Originally Posted by bronclvr

Lonebolt,

I respect your opinion-even if I had to drive a substandard Car (which I don't) I'd still only buy American-luckily, my Kids understand the reasons why, and that's all they drive too-

I appreciate your loyalty but it's not helping anyone to reward Detroit for producing crap.

Funny, they're talking about this on Craigslist too. I think this post says it all:

i love america, but i have given up on the american automotive industry.

why?

my first car was a 1966 ford galaxie. it went for 350K miles trouble free.
my second car was a 1972 ford pinto hatchback. it died at 200K
my third car was a new 1979 mercury marquis. it spent more time at the dealer than it did in my garage, and died at 100k. that killed my interest in the ford motor company for life......

my fourth car was a 1967 volkswagen beetle that had 300k+ on it when i bought it for $900. i put a new engine and transaxle in it for $1400, and drove it for 200K, then sold the car for $4000

my fifth car was a new 1995 chevy cavalier. what a horrible pile of crap that was... in the first six months it went back to the dealer on a tow truck twice, then the engine spun a bearing in 1998 at 38k and was replaced under warranty, then the windslield started leaking water in rain...

i traded the chevy in 2000 for a new honda civic lx, assembled in canada. i'm still driving my honda, it's on it's 3rd set of tires, has 103K miles on it and has never left me stranded. i finally found a car as reliable as my vw bug and original 66 galaxie

when i bought my honda, my father also bought a new 2000 lincoln town car for over $50K. that car went back to the dealer a dozen times in it's first year with window motor problems, charging system problems, air suspension problems, water leaks, oil leaks, you name it.... and this is supposed to be a premier american-made luxury automobile??

up until 1974 or so, the american auto industry built decent cars. after that, the only good vehicles were trucks and later, the ess-you-vee, a passenger truck... and even those are starting to suck. ford explorers are called exploders by pro mechanics for a reason...... and the only way to make a decent cadillac was to take a chevy suburban, fit it with a luxury interior and call it an escalade at 2 or 3 times the price.....

you're probably thinking, "this guy abused those poor vehicles and didn't do proper maintenance" wrong.... i've always been anal about oil changes every 3k miles, coolant replacement every year, tranny service every 15k miles, full tune-ups annually. it made no difference since those vehicles were poorly engineered and poorly manufactured. i'm a maintenance fanatic and even that couldn't keep that junk on the road without going broke...

in my opinion, the only decent american vehicles still being made are built by harley davidson. everything else is highly questionable garbage that isn't worth owning. america can still build a sort-of ok truck, but even those are nothing like the old ones that you could haul a load of gravel in without a bedliner and not damage the inside of the bed..... new american trucks are truck-shaped vehicles that are weak and wimpy.

as a mechanic with 30+ years of experience, i rest my case. i really wish america could offer me an affordable, reliable, long-lasting vehicle but it looks like it isn't going to happen. detroit wants a government bailout so that they can continue in the manner that they have become accustomed. UAW union workers like the current manufacturing methods that don't overstress their workers or require them to make exceptional product, rather they like good pay for mediocre work. that's the truth. the executives like their bonuses for re-positioning cupholders or finding new colors for paint and interior but they could care less that the dodge caravan transmission is the most un-reliable piece of machinery ever built....

if the american auto industry really cared, they wouldn't have been screwing all of us for all of these years.

i say, let it die.

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/rnr/923776114.html

Personally I've owned only two cars. The first was a 1985 Mercury Capri, or as I liked to call it, my Mercury Crapi. Biggest peice of junk ever and I held on to it waaaay too long and spend a small fortune on it to keep it running.

My current car is a 1993 Nissan NX1600. Runs like a swiss watch even with 140K+ miles on it. I expect to get many years of reliable service from it.

[Smiling Assassin27]

How about another unforeseen wrinke...China buys GM (or whichever company files Chapter 7/11 and sells off to reorganize). Will our fearless leader-elect go protectionist? Those who do not want a bailout may want to think about the prospect of a communist giant becoming owner-operator of an enormous manufacturing sector.

SAIC, Dongfeng said to buy GM, Chrysler assets
George Gao From:Gasgoo.com November 18, 2008



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shanghai, November 18 (Gasgoo.com) Under the sway of the global financial crisis, the U.S. auto giants General Motors and Chrysler LLC are tottering on the brink of collapse. Japan's Toyota Motor was previously rumored to buy them out, but now Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dongfeng are also said to have plans to acquire the two U.S. auto companies, reported the 21st Century Business Herald today.

On November 15, a senior official of China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology -- the state regulator of China's auto industry -- told reporters that the auto manufacturing giants in China, such as Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) and Dongfeng Motor Corporation, have the capability and intention to buy some assets of the two crisis-plagued American automakers.

An industry analyst noted that the global financial crisis has forced Chinese manufacturers to retool and upgrade themselves in order to meet and survive the challenge. Many enterprises dependent on low-value-added manufacturing will be driven out of the new wave of competition by technically innovative and financially sound rivals. It would be much easier now for strong Chinese automakers to go global by acquiring some assets of their U.S. counterparts in times of crisis.

In the global acquiring process, Chinese automakers can start with buying out the OEM projects and Chinese ventures of some global carmakers such as GM and Chrysler, said an expert from Deloitte & Touche accounting firm.

In the coming two years China is likely to see a few of its large Chinese automakers and other manufacturing enterprises set a precedent for achieving globalization by acquiring global companies, just like SAIC or Dongfeng's possible acquisition of troubled GM or Chrysler.

[bronclvr]

Originally Posted by The Lone Bolt

I appreciate your loyalty but it's not helping anyone to reward Detroit for producing crap.

My current car is a 1993 Nissan NX1600. Runs like a swiss watch even with 140K+ miles on it. I expect to get many years of reliable service from it.

I do not deny that the Japanese Automakers produce a fine Car-they do. And, I think that the past reputations of the Big 3 have not only been earned, but deserved.

The difference is that they did get the message. I have a friend how has a 2002 Tahoe with over 320K on it, and it still drives like a Truck with 50K on it.

I read an Article about a Year or so ago saying that the head of Toyota was scared to death that Americans would finally get what he called "Pocketbook Patriotism" and really hurt the offshore Automakers. How much different would this situation be if that happenend?

I have often wondered what it will take to bring our great Country back to it's senses and change our direction from a Service oriented Society back into a Manufacturing Society. Another War where we must lose almost everything to understand? How far can we be from China taking over the top spot as the World Leader?

Sadly, it may be too late as Globalism has taken it's course. I really worry for my Children and Grandchildren. Call it what you want, I, for one, will not support anything that will deter what those in front of us believed.

http://www.autoextremist.com/

Support what you believe, for at the end of the day you will sleep with it-

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by The Lone Bolt

I appreciate your loyalty but it's not helping anyone to reward Detroit for producing crap.

Funny, they're talking about this on Craigslist too. I think this post says it all:



http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/rnr/923776114.html

Personally I've owned only two cars. The first was a 1985 Mercury Capri, or as I liked to call it, my Mercury Crapi. Biggest peice of junk ever and I held on to it waaaay too long and spend a small fortune on it to keep it running.

My current car is a 1993 Nissan NX1600. Runs like a swiss watch even with 140K+ miles on it. I expect to get many years of reliable service from it.

95 subaru wagon - 200k