Denver's 3-4 : Full-time Switch, Hybrid Defense or Short-Term Stopgap? - The Orange Mane

Schism · 10-07-2008, 11:08 AM

By far and away the most interesting thing about this team right now is the continuing emergence of 3-4 looks we've been utilising on defense, primarily on passing downs. With the pass D much improved against Tampa, I think it's fair to say we can expect to see more of it as the year goes by. Its' seeing some success, and masks the lameness of the majority of our defensive linemen at pass rushing by having less of them out there.

But beyond that, what do you expect?

I've seen some people indicate that they see this as the start of a full-on switch to a 3-4. While I do prefer the 3-4 defense in general, I can't see this being the case with Denver. Our offense is on the verge of being elite, and should be able to compete for championships in the very near future. Switching to an every down 3-4 would require almost an entirely new defensive line, particularly at DT where we know Robertson isn't a fit. Biggest key to a succesful 3-4 is a quality NT who can take up space in the middle, and these guys are very hard to find. We'd have to draft one, and rookie DT's generally don't do well for a year or two and have a high bust quotient at that.

All in all I think a full-on switch to a 3-4 at this point would be an enormous risk, and I don't see Denver going for it.

Another possibility is that this whole experiment is a desperation move from the coaches. The regular defense has sucked so they're trying something, anything, to try and confuse our opponents. Once teams get a bit more tape of us in 3-4 will they adjust and shred us again? Once we can get some better talent on board in the next offseason could we see Shanahan revert back to the 4-3 on a full time basis, or are the 3-4 looks here to stay?

Or will we continue with what we have now, a 4-3 base defense with a 3-4 formation in on passing downs? It's a very nice fit for our personnel at the minute, as we have the makings a passable run D with the 4-3 as long as Robertson is healthy. Elvis in there gives us some pass rush threat on first down too, while Engleberger on the other side should make up for the softness of Doom in the running game.

Once we get them in a passing situation is where it gets interesting. Line up 3 down linemen and tell them to get after the QB and then maybe bring one or two of the linebackers on blitzes.

The key to this all is coming up with some creative blitzes, or at least making our opponents think we're gonna blitz. We did a nice job of this at times on Sunday, and if we can keep doing it as the season progresses then we might have a shot of putting togther a team that can actually compete in the playoffs rather than be a soft touch due to our D.

Anyway, I've rambled a bit but just thought it'd be interesting so see what some people thought of this. I can't see it being anything more than a hybrid, there's no way we switch to 3-4 full time IMO, no chance. And I could also see us maybe reverting back to a full-time 4-3 next year if we get better personnel on board. Though as I've said I would hope not because the 3-4 is a superior pass defense system IMO.

montrose · 10-07-2008, 11:11 AM

I think it's going to be the hybrid for a while, it takes years to successfully convert to a 3-4 scheme and we don't have a 3-4 coach.

PRBronco · 10-07-2008, 11:16 AM

I think it's just a desperation move for now. It'll be pretty obvious in the off season if they're serious about it, because they'll need to aggressively pursue some nose tackles.

broncosteven · 10-07-2008, 11:16 AM

As long as they find a way to generate pressure I don't care what formation they show.

JUST PRESSURE THE FREAKING QB!

Rock Chalk · 10-07-2008, 11:24 AM

Personally, I think they are going to continue with the status quo.

The hybrid has some significant advantages with only one (forseeable) disadvantage.

The hybrid allows you to confuse offenses much more easily. It allows to disguise both base set blitzes much more effectively. When the 3-4 is being utilized you can generate better pressure on the QB from different angles and with the 4-3 you generate much better run stoppage.

The significant disadvantage of using a two pronged base set defense would be in hurry up offense mode where there isn't time to switch out defensive players however in such situations there is generally going to be lots of passing so you keep a 3-4 hybrid nickel or dime out there and problem solved.

kappys · 10-07-2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock Chalk

Personally, I think they are going to continue with the status quo.

The hybrid has some significant advantages with only one (forseeable) disadvantage.

The hybrid allows you to confuse offenses much more easily. It allows to disguise both base set blitzes much more effectively. When the 3-4 is being utilized you can generate better pressure on the QB from different angles and with the 4-3 you generate much better run stoppage.

The significant disadvantage of using a two pronged base set defense would be in hurry up offense mode where there isn't time to switch out defensive players however in such situations there is generally going to be lots of passing so you keep a 3-4 hybrid nickel or dime out there and problem solved.

The other key is to keep teams from being able to read your defense based on the personnel package that is out there. Won't be concerning for another 1-2 games but Slowik will have to make sure he disguises the personnel choices except in obvious run/pass situations.

gyldenlove · 10-07-2008, 12:01 PM

I liked that we used Ekuban more against the Bucs, he is the most complete DE we have.

I do think we have to not gush too much though, Griese is not a good QB and the Tampa offense is not exactly an unstoppable force. I do like that we got some pressure and hopefully we can build off that.

bronco militia · 10-07-2008, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montrose

we don't have a 3-4 coach.

we have two:

Rick Dennison and Jim Ryan

FantomForce · 10-07-2008, 12:11 PM

keep the hybrid it saves on fuel

Jekyll15Hyde · 10-07-2008, 12:15 PM

would love it to be full time but personnel doesn't dictate it.

I think the coaches looked at it as a short term stop gap but it may end up being hybrid because of the results.

We will know how serious they are in the offseason if they get a true NT. That will let the cat out of the bag.

hades · 10-07-2008, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by montrose

I think it's going to be the hybrid for a while, it takes years to successfully convert to a 3-4 scheme and we don't have a 3-4 coach.

How long, 3 - 4 years maybe?

Schism · 10-07-2008, 12:22 PM

Do we need a NT to go with the hybrid?

I would say no. If we're only using the 3-4 in passing situations then we want penetrators in there as the 3 down linemen, guys who can get at the QB. NT's are more gap control orientated really, so we don't need one and can focus on getting a quality safety or two, and maybe a MLB and possibly some DE's if Crowder and Moss continue to show nothing.

COWBELL · 10-07-2008, 12:33 PM

I agree with broncosteven whatever scheme gets to the QB and manages the big runs. Keep it up

dbfan21 · 10-07-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock Chalk

Personally, I think they are going to continue with the status quo.

The hybrid has some significant advantages with only one (forseeable) disadvantage.

The hybrid allows you to confuse offenses much more easily. It allows to disguise both base set blitzes much more effectively. When the 3-4 is being utilized you can generate better pressure on the QB from different angles and with the 4-3 you generate much better run stoppage.

The significant disadvantage of using a two pronged base set defense would be in hurry up offense mode where there isn't time to switch out defensive players however in such situations there is generally going to be lots of passing so you keep a 3-4 hybrid nickel or dime out there and problem solved.

I am the furthest thing from an X's & O's guy, but I wonder if this is where Shanahan sees Moss being valued as an OLB. On most downs, he's the 4-3 DE. But when we need to transition to the 3-4 alignment, he can adjust to OLB. That way, there aren't a bunch of personnel changes during the game.

I dunno...

Punisher · 10-07-2008, 12:47 PM

3-4,4-3 dosen't matter to me as long as we play Great D.

TDmvp · 10-07-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock Chalk

Personally, I think they are going to continue with the status quo.

The hybrid has some significant advantages with only one (forseeable) disadvantage.

The hybrid allows you to confuse offenses much more easily. It allows to disguise both base set blitzes much more effectively. When the 3-4 is being utilized you can generate better pressure on the QB from different angles and with the 4-3 you generate much better run stoppage.

The significant disadvantage of using a two pronged base set defense would be in hurry up offense mode where there isn't time to switch out defensive players however in such situations there is generally going to be lots of passing so you keep a 3-4 hybrid nickel or dime out there and problem solved.

OK when people change there names we need info

....
there needs to be 1 thread in the accouterments section called name changes ...and anytime it happens we get old/new info

It's to the point i can't keep up , lynchmob , alec , who is next ....

Kaylore · 10-07-2008, 12:54 PM

I think its just a chance for them to get as many of their best players on defense on the field as possible. Right now we have more linebackers than defensive linemen that can play.

broncosteven · 10-07-2008, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDmvp

OK when people change there names we need info

....
there needs to be 1 thread in the accouterments section called name changes ...and anytime it happens we get old/new info

It's to the point i can't keep up , lynchmob , alec , who is next ....

I am debating changing my name to:

Gene Kranz

IHEARTGENE

Man Crush

KKK - for Kranz's Kickass Korps

or Orange Corona

broncosteven · 10-07-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncosteven

I am debating changing my name to:

Gene Kranz

IHEARTGENE

Man Crush

KKK - for Kranz's Kickass Korps

or Orange Corona

Steven Kranz?

TC Steven - for tough and Competetent?

TDmvp · 10-07-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncosteven

I am debating changing my name to:

Gene Kranz

IHEARTGENE

Man Crush

KKK - for Kranz's Kickass Korps

or Orange Corona

do you work for nasa or something

...

broncosteven · 10-07-2008, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDmvp

do you work for nasa or something

...

Nope, and I am too old to get in there. Hoping one of the kids makes it.

Read Gene's book "Failure is not an option" and tell me that your life isn't changed for the better.

tsiguy96 · 10-07-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaylore

I think its just a chance for them to get as many of their best players on defense on the field as possible. Right now we have more linebackers than defensive linemen that can play.

thats exactly it. great defensive teams switch their schemes to match their players strengths, not get players to match the scheme. we have depth at LB, so lets get more of them on the field.

TDmvp · 10-07-2008, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncosteven

Nope, and I am too old to get in there. Hoping one of the kids makes it.

Read Gene's book "Failure is not an option" and tell me that your life isn't changed for the better.

I have actually seen a documentary that i think was based on his book ...
It was called "Failure is Not an Option"
Discovery Chan. / History Chan. He is really hero worthy , and proof you can do whatever you want , no matter where you start ... a Ohio guy so he is spoken about in
schools and stuff here ...

SureShot · 10-07-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broncosteven

Steven Kranz?

TC Steven - for tough and Competetent?

I think Gay4Gene would be a better fit.

nickademus · 10-07-2008, 01:16 PM

I think we are looking at a personal issue rather than a full time switch to the 3-4 as much as I like the 3-4 it isnt really in shanny's mo. I think this is a way to get some of the other guys on the field a little more under the philosphy of the best 11 guys play. But if we are switching to the 3-4 this off season will really be the determining factor where as this season will be more of us just trying to get the best outcome as possible.

10-07-2008, 11:08 AM	#1
Schism Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,920 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Denver's 3-4 : Full-time Switch, Hybrid Defense or Short-Term Stopgap? By far and away the most interesting thing about this team right now is the continuing emergence of 3-4 looks we've been utilising on defense, primarily on passing downs. With the pass D much improved against Tampa, I think it's fair to say we can expect to see more of it as the year goes by. Its' seeing some success, and masks the lameness of the majority of our defensive linemen at pass rushing by having less of them out there. But beyond that, what do you expect? I've seen some people indicate that they see this as the start of a full-on switch to a 3-4. While I do prefer the 3-4 defense in general, I can't see this being the case with Denver. Our offense is on the verge of being elite, and should be able to compete for championships in the very near future. Switching to an every down 3-4 would require almost an entirely new defensive line, particularly at DT where we know Robertson isn't a fit. Biggest key to a succesful 3-4 is a quality NT who can take up space in the middle, and these guys are very hard to find. We'd have to draft one, and rookie DT's generally don't do well for a year or two and have a high bust quotient at that. All in all I think a full-on switch to a 3-4 at this point would be an enormous risk, and I don't see Denver going for it. Another possibility is that this whole experiment is a desperation move from the coaches. The regular defense has sucked so they're trying something, anything, to try and confuse our opponents. Once teams get a bit more tape of us in 3-4 will they adjust and shred us again? Once we can get some better talent on board in the next offseason could we see Shanahan revert back to the 4-3 on a full time basis, or are the 3-4 looks here to stay? Or will we continue with what we have now, a 4-3 base defense with a 3-4 formation in on passing downs? It's a very nice fit for our personnel at the minute, as we have the makings a passable run D with the 4-3 as long as Robertson is healthy. Elvis in there gives us some pass rush threat on first down too, while Engleberger on the other side should make up for the softness of Doom in the running game. Once we get them in a passing situation is where it gets interesting. Line up 3 down linemen and tell them to get after the QB and then maybe bring one or two of the linebackers on blitzes. The key to this all is coming up with some creative blitzes, or at least making our opponents think we're gonna blitz. We did a nice job of this at times on Sunday, and if we can keep doing it as the season progresses then we might have a shot of putting togther a team that can actually compete in the playoffs rather than be a soft touch due to our D. Anyway, I've rambled a bit but just thought it'd be interesting so see what some people thought of this. I can't see it being anything more than a hybrid, there's no way we switch to 3-4 full time IMO, no chance. And I could also see us maybe reverting back to a full-time 4-3 next year if we get better personnel on board. Though as I've said I would hope not because the 3-4 is a superior pass defense system IMO.

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10-07-2008, 11:11 AM	#2
montrose Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 6,095 Adopt-a-Bronco: VP John Elway	I think it's going to be the hybrid for a while, it takes years to successfully convert to a 3-4 scheme and we don't have a 3-4 coach.

10-07-2008, 11:16 AM	#3
PRBronco FML less Join Date: May 2004 Location: North Vancouver Posts: 4,206 Adopt-a-Bronco: I'm so alone	I think it's just a desperation move for now. It'll be pretty obvious in the off season if they're serious about it, because they'll need to aggressively pursue some nose tackles.

10-07-2008, 11:16 AM	#4
broncosteven The Kranz Dictum MWA: Flight Director Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Tranquility Base Posts: 29,056 Adopt-a-Bronco: MONEYBALL #38	As long as they find a way to generate pressure I don't care what formation they show. JUST PRESSURE THE FREAKING QB!

10-07-2008, 11:24 AM	#5
Rock Chalk Cheeky Bastards Laus Deo Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Backside of the Internet Posts: 29,940 Adopt-a-Bronco: Chris Harris	Personally, I think they are going to continue with the status quo. The hybrid has some significant advantages with only one (forseeable) disadvantage. The hybrid allows you to confuse offenses much more easily. It allows to disguise both base set blitzes much more effectively. When the 3-4 is being utilized you can generate better pressure on the QB from different angles and with the 4-3 you generate much better run stoppage. The significant disadvantage of using a two pronged base set defense would be in hurry up offense mode where there isn't time to switch out defensive players however in such situations there is generally going to be lots of passing so you keep a 3-4 hybrid nickel or dime out there and problem solved.

10-07-2008, 12:01 PM	#7
gyldenlove Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: London, ON Posts: 10,034 Adopt-a-Bronco: Spencer Larsen	I liked that we used Ekuban more against the Bucs, he is the most complete DE we have. I do think we have to not gush too much though, Griese is not a good QB and the Tampa offense is not exactly an unstoppable force. I do like that we got some pressure and hopefully we can build off that.

10-07-2008, 12:11 PM	#9
FantomForce Long live the Mane! The Incredible BULK! Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Silt, Colorado Posts: 2,028	keep the hybrid it saves on fuel

10-07-2008, 12:15 PM	#10
Jekyll15Hyde Anti Frown Cannon & McD.. Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,241	would love it to be full time but personnel doesn't dictate it. I think the coaches looked at it as a short term stop gap but it may end up being hybrid because of the results. We will know how serious they are in the offseason if they get a true NT. That will let the cat out of the bag.

10-07-2008, 12:22 PM	#12
Schism Ring of Famer New to the Forum Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,920 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Do we need a NT to go with the hybrid? I would say no. If we're only using the 3-4 in passing situations then we want penetrators in there as the 3 down linemen, guys who can get at the QB. NT's are more gap control orientated really, so we don't need one and can focus on getting a quality safety or two, and maybe a MLB and possibly some DE's if Crowder and Moss continue to show nothing.

10-07-2008, 12:33 PM	#13
COWBELL Rookie Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lafayette, la Posts: 82 Adopt-a-Bronco: Cutler	I agree with broncosteven whatever scheme gets to the QB and manages the big runs. Keep it up

10-07-2008, 12:47 PM	#15
Punisher ® You Tell The NFL! We're coming for That Belt! WOOOOO® Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Broncos Video Vault Posts: 6,629 Adopt-a-Bronco: i4jelway7	3-4,4-3 dosen't matter to me as long as we play Great D.

10-07-2008, 12:54 PM	#17
Kaylore 6-37, Raider fans. Yummy birds and snow! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ceti Alpha V Posts: 41,061 Adopt-a-Bronco: Wesley Duke	I think its just a chance for them to get as many of their best players on defense on the field as possible. Right now we have more linebackers than defensive linemen that can play.

10-07-2008, 01:16 PM	#25
nickademus Samurai of Smack Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,105 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eddie Royal	I think we are looking at a personal issue rather than a full time switch to the 3-4 as much as I like the 3-4 it isnt really in shanny's mo. I think this is a way to get some of the other guys on the field a little more under the philosphy of the best 11 guys play. But if we are switching to the 3-4 this off season will really be the determining factor where as this season will be more of us just trying to get the best outcome as possible.