Moss waits as defensive plans passing him by

[wolf754life]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10639945

this guy is a BUST

The team's No. 1 draft choice in 2007, Moss has been inactive for two of the Broncos' four games this season, and NFL Sirius Radio has already reported he will be inactive today against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers

[cutthemdown]

very bummed about Moss. I can't complain I thought it was a good pick and had high hopes for him. He just has shown nothing other then a few good pass rushes right before he got injured last yr.

[Popps]

This is why many of us were pounding the table to bring in some veteran talent at DE in the off-season. (This year and last.) The idiocy of the argument that vets would "steal playing time" from Moss/Crowder is off the charts.

The guy should have been showing flashes by now. I understand he's had injuries and 100 other excuses. That's great. Let him work that out and get back to us. In the meanwhile, we've got jack-**** at defensive end because we blindly hoped that these guys would suddenly develop.

I've used the Trevor Pryce analogy before. Pryce showed major flashes his rookie season, was a starter by the second year and a Pro Bowl player by his third year. I'm tired of the "it takes time" argument with these two. Moss/Crowder MAY be decent players some day. But, how about we don't put the entire ****ing defense on hold while we wait and see.... huh?

You have to wonder who's evaluating the defensive talent for this team. Is this a coaching problem? Scouting problem? It's fascinating that anyone could have looked at the DEs we had heading into the season and assumed that we were anything but absolutely ****ed.

[Florida_Bronco]

People just need to have patience. He showed flashes last year, and when he's been on the field this year he has at least gone all out, even if it was kinda sloppy.

Both he and Crowder have the talent to be productive for us, and I'm confident they will be in time.

[Atwater His Ass]

It seems his attitude his holding him back more than anything.

[Florida_Bronco]

Originally Posted by Atwater His Ass

It seems his attitude his holding him back more than anything.

How did you come to that conclusion? Seems to me his attitude is his best asset right now.

[Ratboy]

I blame the coaches. Moss has played just as well as the other defensive ends.

[Florida_Bronco]

Originally Posted by RTribbey

I blame the coaches. Moss has played just as well as the other defensive ends.

I really think Med is on to something RE: slamming Jacob Burney.

[Ratboy]

Originally Posted by Popps

I've used the Trevor Pryce analogy before. Pryce showed major flashes his rookie season, was a starter by the second year and a Pro Bowl player by his third year. I'm tired of the "it takes time" argument with these two. Moss/Crowder MAY be decent players some day. But, how about we don't put the entire ****ing defense on hold while we wait and see.... huh?

Wait.. Wasn't Trevor Pryce almost cut his rookie year?

and technically, Moss is still a "rookie". The injury set him off, Moss was showing flashes last year too.

No one on our line has done ****. I wouldn't put the blame on him.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Jesus, at least Ryan Sims was a starter...

[Florida_Bronco]

Originally Posted by RTribbey

Wait.. Wasn't Trevor Pryce almost cut his rookie year?

and technically, Moss is still a "rookie". The injury set him off, Moss was showing flashes last year too.

No one on our line has done ****. I wouldn't put the blame on him.

Med has also mentioned that our D-line is playing mostly in a 4 point stance, along with playing the run first. That **** falls on the coaches, not the players.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by RTribbey

Wait.. Wasn't Trevor Pryce almost cut his rookie year?

and technically, Moss is still a "rookie". The injury set him off, Moss was showing flashes last year too.

No one on our line has done ****. I wouldn't put the blame on him.

People need to chill out on Moss and read this: http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/draft/417351

This guy basically had practically his whole college career wiped out due to the staph infection that put him two years behind in terms of physical development. This thing kept him from gaining both weight and strength, so when you look at Moss you're basically looking at a college sophmore's body. We knew this when we picked him and it was explained from day 1 that he was a project. 13 college starts and one year in an NFL training room is not going to get this dude ready for playing. He may very well turn out to be a bust, but expecting anything of him right now is silly. He was picked for next season to be when he begins to show what he can do so let's wait till then to throw him overboard.

[bronco0608]

Originally Posted by Florida Bronco

Med has also mentioned that our D-line is playing mostly in a 4 point stance, along with playing the run first. That **** falls on the coaches, not the players.

Come on, how does Elvis Dummervil get 12.5 sacks from a four point stance? What, he would have gotten 25 sacks rushing straight up? This is getting ridiculous.

Instead of looking at the lack of talent on the dline, some clowns here want to blame Jacob Burney and his techniques.

The way Med has made him out to be, I am absolutely clueless as to how Burney has been coaching NFL dlinemen for over 10 years now.

It's like, ONLY Med sees the four point stance and all its defencencies and Ray Rhodes, Larry Coyer, Jim Bates, Bob Slowik and Mike Shanahan do not.

Give me a freaking break.

[cutthemdown]

Broncos defense is pretty small. If they don't get the tackles in a 4 point stance I'm thinking they would get stood up and pushed around.

Now I haven't really noticed the ends in 4 point stances also is this what they are doing. I feel silly for not having really paid attention to that.

I have said I feel with smaller Dends like we have we need to get them further outside to improve the amount of space they have before they engage the tackle. Gives more room for players like Dumerville and Moss to make plays.

The problem is our linebackers and safety's aren't big and physical and by opening the line up with Dends lined out wider you open yourself up to the run on passing downs.

Still I will be watching the dline stance techniques really close today. Interesting stuff.

I still feel if you have a huge dline you go with small fast backers. If you have huge backers then go with a smaller, quicker dline.

Seems like Broncos just went small at both spots and that spells trouble for any front seven.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

Seems like Broncos just went small at both spots and that spells trouble for any front seven.

What a brilliant strategy eh?

[dsmoot]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

People need to chill out on Moss and read this: http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/draft/417351

This guy basically had practically his whole college career wiped out due to the staph infection that put him two years behind in terms of physical development. This thing kept him from gaining both weight and strength, so when you look at Moss you're basically looking at a college sophmore's body. We knew this when we picked him and it was explained from day 1 that he was a project. 13 college starts and one year in an NFL training room is not going to get this dude ready for playing. He may very well turn out to be a bust, but expecting anything of him right now is silly. He was picked for next season to be when he begins to show what he can do so let's wait till then to throw him overboard.

There in lies the real problem. You don't spend a number 1 draft choice for a PROJECT. The team has too many needs on this defense to make a decision like this. That logic alone deserves someone's head. Were there no impact DT's, MLB's or Safetys available when we took him. Sure there were. This team needs drafted players who can play in short order. When we took Trevor Pryce, our defensive although not great was in significantly better shape than today's bunch. We could better afford to let a player develop. Not now. We need players now.

[montrose]

Jarvis looked better than Dumervil the last two weeks, IMO.

[bpc]

We could have had Reggie Nelson as the deep safety and another 3rd round pick back in the fold.

Instead, we have an inactive week after week.

I'm as patient as the next guy but the problem is we drafted a slender pass rushing DE who had amazing potential if he could put on some weight. Well, he never could put on weight at Florida and his career has been marred by injuries or illness.

Unfortunately I think we'll be waiting a long time for this one and it won't be going in our favor. I'm pretty much resigned to it.

[elsid13]

Originally Posted by bronco0608

Come on, how does Elvis Dummervil get 12.5 sacks from a four point stance? What, he would have gotten 25 sacks rushing straight up? This is getting ridiculous.

Instead of looking at the lack of talent on the dline, some clowns here want to blame Jacob Burney and his techniques.

The way Med has made him out to be, I am absolutely clueless as to how Burney has been coaching NFL dlinemen for over 10 years now.

It's like, ONLY Med sees the four point stance and all its defencencies and Ray Rhodes, Larry Coyer, Jim Bates, Bob Slowik and Mike Shanahan do not.

Give me a freaking break.

Actually I noticed 4 point stance in the preseason against Houston. Four point stance is the effort by this coaching staff to stop the run above all else. Because Shanahan used to believe that you won in the NFL by stopping the run and successfully running the ball.

Dumervil came into the league with excellent technique and a number of professional pass moves. Wannstedt(Pitt coach) actually did an article where stated that Doom had the best technique he had seen in long time, which is one of the reason Wannstedt thought Dumervil would a good pass rusher in the NFL.

Moss isn't a bust, but he needs better techinque to be effective.

[ludo21]

We still need more talent on our D line. But I agree with MEd to fire the DL coach immediately.

[fdf]

Originally Posted by dsmoot

There in lies the real problem. You don't spend a number 1 draft choice for a PROJECT.

That's why I didn't like the pick on draft day--that, and we already had an undersized DE (Dumervill) who, at such, was pretty darn good. OTOH, Thomas for all his issues, was a great pick and I thought so at the time. You can spend a fourth on a high-risk project. Not a first.

Hopefully, Moss will be the last Middlebrooks-type first day pick for the Broncos. We seem to have gotten most of that out of our system in the past few years.

He may well eventually turn the corner and become a good player. He seems like a good guy with a good attitude and I'm rooting for him. I'd be happy at this point with a decent starter. The problem though with projects is, if he ever does get it together, he's a free agent and we've just spent umpity million dollars and a roster spot for four years to develop a terrific DE for someone else.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by bronco0608

Come on, how does Elvis Dummervil get 12.5 sacks from a four point stance? What, he would have gotten 25 sacks rushing straight up? This is getting ridiculous.

Instead of looking at the lack of talent on the dline, some clowns here want to blame Jacob Burney and his techniques.

The way Med has made him out to be, I am absolutely clueless as to how Burney has been coaching NFL dlinemen for over 10 years now.

It's like, ONLY Med sees the four point stance and all its defencencies and Ray Rhodes, Larry Coyer, Jim Bates, Bob Slowik and Mike Shanahan do not.

Give me a freaking break.

I am not sure you know WHAT you are talking about. I understand you want to disagree with me, but What are you talking about?

I explained the reason for the 4 point stance, it is a technique that is used to help leverage the running game. It is not a solid pass rushing technique because it takes longer to get out of your stance and get into the pass rush. Ever see a DL use the four point stance to run the 40 at the combine? Or, does every single player use a 3 point stance?

The four point stance is an advantage in the running game and that is why Jim Bates brought it with his scheme in 2007. He tried to play the run like the Tampa 2 scheme does with only Seven in the box and this gives the DL a chance to control the LOS if its a running play. It sacrifices the running game to concentrate on stoipping the pass. And, the DL was NOT able to implement either last year and continues to flounder this season.

None of the other DC's you mentioned used the four point stance, so I am not sure why you brought them not this. As for Jacob Burney, I am not the only one who has pointed this out. None of his techniques are working or have worked for years. 7 of his years in the NFL have been working the mess of DEN's DL, and they have been pretty poor in that time always being a weakness of the defense.

Dumervil's 12.5 sacks were not a fluke, the guy can rush the passer. However, they were not from a 4 point stance and mostly were from a pass rush situation where he had the green light to rush.

[Florida_Bronco]

Originally Posted by bronco0608

Come on, how does Elvis Dummervil get 12.5 sacks from a four point stance? What, he would have gotten 25 sacks rushing straight up? This is getting ridiculous.

Instead of looking at the lack of talent on the dline, some clowns here want to blame Jacob Burney and his techniques.

The way Med has made him out to be, I am absolutely clueless as to how Burney has been coaching NFL dlinemen for over 10 years now.

It's like, ONLY Med sees the four point stance and all its defencencies and Ray Rhodes, Larry Coyer, Jim Bates, Bob Slowik and Mike Shanahan do not.

Give me a freaking break.

You're being awfully simplistic, arent you?

For starters, I don't recall seeing much of the 4 point stance last year, and this year Elvis has not been as effective.

I think the reason Elvis has been effective here is because he was so good technique wise at Louisville. The others were not so good with technique and have not improved since coming to Denver.

There was a very good article posted here a few days ago that broke down how many players we'd brought in on the D-line and how they had failed.

Eventually you have to start looking at the common denominator.

[kappys]

Oooh.

Can I complain that we didn't try and trade up for Patrick Willis now?

Teams draft busts all the time - we hit the jackpot 3 years ago and another one this year. Moss and Crowder sucks, though I think Crowder could develop into a decent player. Moss is worthless. He'll get one more offseason and we'll see what he can do but I don't expect anything out of him this year.

On the other hand we landed both Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas last year and I have a feeling both of them are going to be very good, so its pretty much a wash as far as a draft goes.

[broncogary]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

I am not sure you know WHAT you are talking about. I understand you want to disagree with me, but What are you talking about?

I explained the reason for the 4 point stance, it is a technique that is used to help leverage the running game. It is not a solid pass rushing technique because it takes longer to get out of your stance and get into the pass rush. Ever see a DL use the four point stance to run the 40 at the combine? Or, does every single player use a 3 point stance?

The four point stance is an advantage in the running game and that is why Jim Bates brought it with his scheme in 2007. He tried to play the run like the Tampa 2 scheme does with only Seven in the box and this gives the DL a chance to control the LOS if its a running play. It sacrifices the running game to concentrate on stoipping the pass. And, the DL was NOT able to implement either last year and continues to flounder this season.

None of the other DC's you mentioned used the four point stance, so I am not sure why you brought them not this. As for Jacob Burney, I am not the only one who has pointed this out. None of his techniques are working or have worked for years. 7 of his years in the NFL have been working the mess of DEN's DL, and they have been pretty poor in that time always being a weakness of the defense.

Dumervil's 12.5 sacks were not a fluke, the guy can rush the passer. However, they were not from a 4 point stance and mostly were from a pass rush situation where he had the green light to rush.

How come all of those Olympic sprinters use a four point stance, then? Do you think they're trying to stop the run?