Niko vs. Spencer - The Orange Mane

cmhargrove · 08-12-2008, 11:19 AM

So I finally watched the second half late last night.

I am not an NFL personnel man, that is obvious - but I did make some observations.

1. Niko wasn't fast anywhere. He wasn't fast in coverage, he didn't hit a gap and fill the line fast, he didn't pursue fast. First game jitters?
2. Niko gets washed out easily at the line. He tried to cover two holes instead of crashing one, and then got his ass pushed out of the play.
3. When he chooses the wrong hole (especially on the outside of the play) he spins back around the wrong direction looking for the play. Watch the tape, he did this several times. Instead of keeping the play in front of him, he spins outside, then turns back in for the play - what the hell is that? Even if he is going to pursue, he loses sight of the play and slows down his momentum. I don't get it.

1. Larsen is no burner either.
2. What Spencer lacks in speed, he makes up for in decisiveness. Even if he is plugging the wrong hole, he hits it with authority and pushes blockers back into the play. This guy hits straight into the play, and gets a push.
3. He will not really be a sideline to sideline guy like Al, but he could really help force plays to the outside. He plays with much more power than Niko. I think he fits our scheme better forcing plays to our speed of our OLB's, or denying the middle.

I'll be interested to see them again vs. Dallas. Dallas will definitely be running some inside plays with Barber, Jones, and Choice. We'll get to see who hits in the middle.

What 'ya think?

PRBronco · 08-12-2008, 11:24 AM

Either way, I appreciate your leaving Webster out of this debate.

I'd like to see Niko succeed, because i'm a shanafan and I don't want to see that money go to waste (like Colbert's contract probably will), but I really like having a big, physical mike linebacker like Larsen.

TheReverend · 08-12-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRBronco

Either way, I appreciate your leaving Webster out of this debate.

I'd like to see Niko succeed, because i'm a shanafan and I don't want to see that money go to waste (like Colbert's contract probably will), but I really like having a big, physical mike linebacker like Larsen.

You NEED to trademark that.

PRBronco · 08-12-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheReverend

You NEED to trademark that.

Hahah, I think I got it from someone on here, I can't take credit!

lex · 08-12-2008, 12:24 PM

Im in the pro-Larsen camp as well. I posted elsewhere that, when the guys at the top of the depth chart arent stellar, we are more willing to give the young guys a chance. Whats telling in the initial posters observation is that Larsen is a rookie and is already appearing more decisive. He may seem faster when he is more comfortable and becomes even more adept at reading plays.

Cosmo · 08-12-2008, 12:27 PM

In defense of Niko, the line did nothing to keep blockers off him.

I like Niko & Larsen, I want either to succeed. I think Nate is garbage, he has poor vision and tackling technique both of which we have already somewhat in DJ in Boss. We need a hard nosed tough MLB, speed isn't necessary, smarts are.

theAPAOps5 · 08-12-2008, 12:36 PM

Next years first round pick for the Denver Broncos will be MLB.

socalorado · 08-12-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

In defense of Niko, the line did nothing to keep blockers off him.

I like Niko & Larsen, I want either to succeed. I think Nate is garbage, he has poor vision and tackling technique both of which we have already somewhat in DJ in Boss. We need a hard nosed tough MLB, speed isn't necessary, smarts are.

Then Larsens your man.
I think Larsen should be given a complete 1st half at MLB. DAL would be a tough one, but he sure wouldnt shy away from the opportunity.
I think since the "starters" havent shined, give Larsen a shot with the starters and see what happens.

Dudeskey · 08-12-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRBronco

Either way, I appreciate your leaving Webster out of this debate.

I'd like to see Niko succeed, because i'm a shanafan and I don't want to see that money go to waste (like Colbert's contract probably will), but I really like having a big, physical mike linebacker like Larsen.

Funny thing is I think I saw Colbert in traffic around surrey ridge this morning on my way back to Denver...

SonOfLe-loLang · 08-12-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

Then Larsens your man.
I think Larsen should be given a complete 1st half at MLB. DAL would be a tough one, but he sure wouldnt shy away from the opportunity.
I think since the "starters" havent shined, give Larsen a shot with the starters and see what happens.

This kind of talk is CRAZY! The starters played ONE half of ONE preseason game! And last I checked, they didn't get GASHED, especially in the running game. But yeah, they look so unimpressive that we might as well throw in our 6th round draft pick because, obviously, all hope is lost.

Yes, the defense didnt play great, but last time i checked, we didnt give up 85 points last saturday. it was under 20!

Bob's your Information Minister · 08-12-2008, 12:48 PM

If you want to have a good defense, leave both out of the equation.

theAPAOps5 · 08-12-2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

Then Larsens your man.
I think Larsen should be given a complete 1st half at MLB. DAL would be a tough one, but he sure wouldnt shy away from the opportunity.
I think since the "starters" havent shined, give Larsen a shot with the starters and see what happens.

I am pretty sure that the fact he is playing FB as well is a sign that the team isn't leaning towards starting him at MLB. Its one thing to be the reserve QB or a RB be listed as a FB like Pitman.

socalorado · 08-12-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang

This kind of talk is CRAZY! The starters played ONE half of ONE preseason game! And last I checked, they didn't get GASHED, especially in the running game. But yeah, they look so unimpressive that we might as well throw in our 6th round draft pick because, obviously, all hope is lost.

Yes, the defense didnt play great, but last time i checked, we didnt give up 85 points last saturday. it was under 20!

Dude, slow down. I am not sayin make Larsen the starter.
Neither Niko or Webster even looked remotely solid when they played.
I think everyone including the coaching staff, knows what they are getting with webster. hes been in DEN and played basically every LB spot. Its no suprise that he isnt the shaprest tool in the shed, and he overpursues and when he does make a play, its 6 yards downfield ususally.
As for Niko, none of us know yet, but maybe moving these guys around a little will get the competitive juices flowing and we will see some improvement.

As for Larsen playing FB. I think thats because theres a clear injury issue at the FB position, (Hillis)and he can play there. So they are using him where that have a desperate need. Sapp meh.

SonOfLe-loLang · 08-12-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

Dude, slow down. I am not sayin make Larsen the starter.
Neither Niko or Webster even looked remotely solid when they played.
I think everyone including the coaching staff, knows what they are getting with webster. hes been in DEN and played basically every LB spot. Its no suprise that he isnt the shaprest tool in the shed, and he overpursues and when he does make a play, its 6 yards downfield ususally.
As for Niko, none of us know yet, but maybe moving these guys around a little will get the competitive juices flowing and we will see some improvement.

As for Larsen playing FB. I think thats because theres a clear injury issue at the FB position, (Hillis)and he can play there. So they are using him where that have a desperate need. Sapp meh.

You keep saying they havent looked solid, but your sample size is TINY. It's like saying it rains everyday in Los Angeles if you happened to come out one wet day in January. They deserve more than a half of football as a sample size

cutthemdown · 08-12-2008, 01:07 PM

Too early to say on Larsen who knows really he hasn't played enough.

Niko though has been in the NFL and hasn't started yet. Don't people understand that means he's not going to be anything too special?

theAPAOps5 · 08-12-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

As for Larsen playing FB. I think thats because theres a clear injury issue at the FB position, (Hillis)and he can play there. So they are using him where that have a desperate need. Sapp meh.

Except why not use a RB or TE. Since its only until Hillis comes back. My point is if a team is thinking about making you or seeing you run with the ones they wouldn't be lining you up at FB.

Maybe down the road if Webster or Niko continue to struggle they do though.

socalorado · 08-12-2008, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfLe-loLang

You keep saying they havent looked solid, but your sample size is TINY. It's like saying it rains everyday in Los Angeles if you happened to come out one wet day in January. They deserve more than a half of football as a sample size

No its not tiny. Niko has been in the NFL for 5 years. He had his shot and WEBSTER beat him out! Webster has been in DEN for what? 3 years i think? We know what we are getting with Webster, and if Niko cant beat him out, then we as fans can make the assessment that niko isnt much!

So let Larsen play and see what happens. Thats what the preseason is for.

socalorado · 08-12-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApaOps5

Except why not use a RB or TE. Since its only until Hillis comes back. My point is if a team is thinking about making you or seeing you run with the ones they wouldn't be lining you up at FB.

Maybe down the road if Webster or Niko continue to struggle they do though.

Yeah, it odd man. dunno what this is. The mastermind overthinking a position maybe?!?! Who knows.

theAPAOps5 · 08-12-2008, 01:26 PM

You do raise a very valid point socalorado

socalorado · 08-12-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ApaOps5

You do raise a very valid point socalorado

I dont want to crown the guy! (Larsen)
But i think they should really get an assessment of the guy and go from there.

You know what would suck!?!?
DEN releases Larsen and he goes elsewhere, and ends up being a really solid player for another team, like Miami.
Just sayin...

I could just see it.

COMMENTATOR: "Yeah, they had this kid playing fullback! Of all spots in DEN, and he never really got his chance!" "Came over a FA and really worked his @$$ off and impressed Parcells, and now hes starting for the big tuna!"

"Go figure!!"

SonOfLe-loLang · 08-12-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

Yeah, it odd man. dunno what this is. The mastermind overthinking a position maybe?!?! Who knows.

it still seems silly to me when defenses need time to gel. if Larson earns the spot in practice, that's one thing...but just casting the other two aside because they've proven to be crap (when Niko has never played in our D and Webster was out of position last year) is dumb.

Cito Pelon · 08-12-2008, 02:11 PM

Niko wasn't too bad. The second team D didn't go 8 in the box, just the 4-3 with all 3 LB's lined up within a yard of each other for the most part. He's pretty fast. Made some good reads to cover the middle when HOU passed.

backup qb · 08-12-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by socalorado

No its not tiny. Niko has been in the NFL for 5 years. He had his shot and WEBSTER beat him out! Webster has been in DEN for what? 3 years i think? We know what we are getting with Webster, and if Niko cant beat him out, then we as fans can make the assessment that niko isnt much!

So let Larsen play and see what happens. Thats what the preseason is for.

I agree with some of your assessments, however I don't think Webster has beaten him out yet. It was one game. The staff will/should move some people around for the Dallas game.

HEAV · 08-12-2008, 02:36 PM

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/54176.html

BIO: Second on the team in tackles last season with 101/5.5 after leading the team as a junior with 121, also accumulating 11.5 tackles for loss and three interceptions.

POSITIVES: Athletic, tough defender that stacks well against the run. Displays good range, gets depth on pass drops and quick filling the gaps. Breaks down well, bends his knees and rarely off his feet. Strong at the point and always working to get involved in the action. Good special-teams player.

NEGATIVES: Not efficient, commits to a move and gets caught out of position. Too quick to come up the field, does not flow to the play and takes incorrect angles. Very hesitant in pass coverage and not overly instinctive.

ANALYSIS: Koutouvides is best in the box stuffing the run. Must learn the nuances of his position and become a complete linebacker to meet his potential at the next level.

PROJECTION: Late Third Round

bpc · 08-12-2008, 02:44 PM

Larsen has the potential to be better than Niko at the Mike. He won't have the quickness or explosion that Webster has though. As somebody pointed out, what he doesn't have there, he makes up with instincts and playmaking ability. He has good short area quickness, is a pretty sure tackler and can diagnose plays very fast.

Right now, he isn't moving as fast as he should. It's a compounded problem of trying to learn a new defense, a new position (he played more Will at Arizona) and the team is also forcing him to learn FB (stupid move to me but I think it's probably because he's not fast but will run through players.)

Honestly, I think he could be a very good 2 down MLB for this squad after he figures out what he is doing out there but with the workload he has right now, it's going to take him a while to do so. As that is, Shanahan craves speed at the LB positions and I think ultimately, Larson won't be 'sexy' enough for Shanahan to stay with in the middle of the field. It sucks because he is a very good player.

I hope i'm wrong.

08-12-2008, 11:19 AM	#1
cmhargrove Is this thing on??? Travis Henry's love child... Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 6,396 Adopt-a-Bronco: Peyton Hillis	Niko vs. Spencer So I finally watched the second half late last night. I am not an NFL personnel man, that is obvious - but I did make some observations. 1. Niko wasn't fast anywhere. He wasn't fast in coverage, he didn't hit a gap and fill the line fast, he didn't pursue fast. First game jitters? 2. Niko gets washed out easily at the line. He tried to cover two holes instead of crashing one, and then got his ass pushed out of the play. 3. When he chooses the wrong hole (especially on the outside of the play) he spins back around the wrong direction looking for the play. Watch the tape, he did this several times. Instead of keeping the play in front of him, he spins outside, then turns back in for the play - what the hell is that? Even if he is going to pursue, he loses sight of the play and slows down his momentum. I don't get it. 1. Larsen is no burner either. 2. What Spencer lacks in speed, he makes up for in decisiveness. Even if he is plugging the wrong hole, he hits it with authority and pushes blockers back into the play. This guy hits straight into the play, and gets a push. 3. He will not really be a sideline to sideline guy like Al, but he could really help force plays to the outside. He plays with much more power than Niko. I think he fits our scheme better forcing plays to our speed of our OLB's, or denying the middle. I'll be interested to see them again vs. Dallas. Dallas will definitely be running some inside plays with Barber, Jones, and Choice. We'll get to see who hits in the middle. What 'ya think?

08-12-2008, 11:24 AM	#2
PRBronco FML less Join Date: May 2004 Location: North Vancouver Posts: 4,206 Adopt-a-Bronco: I'm so alone	Either way, I appreciate your leaving Webster out of this debate. I'd like to see Niko succeed, because i'm a shanafan and I don't want to see that money go to waste (like Colbert's contract probably will), but I really like having a big, physical mike linebacker like Larsen. Last edited by PRBronco; 08-12-2008 at 11:27 AM..

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08-12-2008, 12:24 PM	#5
lex Bowlen Sold Us Out! The Broncos have been DisemBowlened Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chi-Town Posts: 10,253 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Im in the pro-Larsen camp as well. I posted elsewhere that, when the guys at the top of the depth chart arent stellar, we are more willing to give the young guys a chance. Whats telling in the initial posters observation is that Larsen is a rookie and is already appearing more decisive. He may seem faster when he is more comfortable and becomes even more adept at reading plays.

08-12-2008, 12:27 PM	#6
Cosmo Perennial Pro-bowler Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Greeley Colorado!!! Posts: 957	In defense of Niko, the line did nothing to keep blockers off him. I like Niko & Larsen, I want either to succeed. I think Nate is garbage, he has poor vision and tackling technique both of which we have already somewhat in DJ in Boss. We need a hard nosed tough MLB, speed isn't necessary, smarts are.

08-12-2008, 12:36 PM	#7
theAPAOps5 A new beginning! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 26,057 Adopt-a-Bronco: Watermock - RIP	Next years first round pick for the Denver Broncos will be MLB.

08-12-2008, 12:48 PM	#11
Bob's your Information Minister Chiefs > Broncos Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 25,915 Adopt-a-Bronco: CHRIS KUPER!!!	If you want to have a good defense, leave both out of the equation.

08-12-2008, 01:07 PM	#15
cutthemdown A verbis ad verbera Zimm to HOF Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Long Beach Posts: 32,429	Too early to say on Larsen who knows really he hasn't played enough. Niko though has been in the NFL and hasn't started yet. Don't people understand that means he's not going to be anything too special?

08-12-2008, 01:26 PM	#19
theAPAOps5 A new beginning! Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denver Posts: 26,057 Adopt-a-Bronco: Watermock - RIP	You do raise a very valid point socalorado

08-12-2008, 02:11 PM	#22
Cito Pelon Attack at all times . . . Happy dog at the Divide Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: AFC West Championshipville Posts: 15,192 Adopt-a-Bronco: Elvis	Niko wasn't too bad. The second team D didn't go 8 in the box, just the 4-3 with all 3 LB's lined up within a yard of each other for the most part. He's pretty fast. Made some good reads to cover the middle when HOU passed.

08-12-2008, 02:36 PM	#24
HEAV Ring of Famer It's about the Team Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Ville Posts: 12,077 Adopt-a-Bronco: Brian Dawkins	http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/foo...ers/54176.html BIO: Second on the team in tackles last season with 101/5.5 after leading the team as a junior with 121, also accumulating 11.5 tackles for loss and three interceptions. POSITIVES: Athletic, tough defender that stacks well against the run. Displays good range, gets depth on pass drops and quick filling the gaps. Breaks down well, bends his knees and rarely off his feet. Strong at the point and always working to get involved in the action. Good special-teams player. NEGATIVES: Not efficient, commits to a move and gets caught out of position. Too quick to come up the field, does not flow to the play and takes incorrect angles. Very hesitant in pass coverage and not overly instinctive. ANALYSIS: Koutouvides is best in the box stuffing the run. Must learn the nuances of his position and become a complete linebacker to meet his potential at the next level. PROJECTION: Late Third Round

08-12-2008, 02:44 PM	#25
bpc "Nemo Me Impune Lacessit" 1 sword keeps another in the sheath Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Northern California Posts: 12,567 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	Larsen has the potential to be better than Niko at the Mike. He won't have the quickness or explosion that Webster has though. As somebody pointed out, what he doesn't have there, he makes up with instincts and playmaking ability. He has good short area quickness, is a pretty sure tackler and can diagnose plays very fast. Right now, he isn't moving as fast as he should. It's a compounded problem of trying to learn a new defense, a new position (he played more Will at Arizona) and the team is also forcing him to learn FB (stupid move to me but I think it's probably because he's not fast but will run through players.) Honestly, I think he could be a very good 2 down MLB for this squad after he figures out what he is doing out there but with the workload he has right now, it's going to take him a while to do so. As that is, Shanahan craves speed at the LB positions and I think ultimately, Larson won't be 'sexy' enough for Shanahan to stay with in the middle of the field. It sucks because he is a very good player. I hope i'm wrong.