Deadly massage - The Orange Mane

W*GS · 07-25-2008, 07:43 PM

(I wonder how LABF and the other Chavez blowers will spin this...)

Venezuela

Deadly massage
Jul 17th 2008 | CARACAS
From The Economist print edition

How not to tackle a soaring murder rate

One of Hugo Chávez’s lesser-known feats since taking over as Venezuela’s leader in 1999 is to have presided over a tripling of the annual homicide rate—and that’s according to the official statistics. Last year more than 13,000 people were killed in a country of 27m, producing a murder rate of 48 per 100,000, the second highest in the world (after El Salvador). In neighbouring Colombia, a country plagued by guerrilla war and drug violence, the rate was 40 per 100,000.

Not surprisingly, violent crime far outweighs the other worries of Venezuelans. Three-quarters of them describe it as the worst problem now facing the country, polls show. “The first thing we need to do”, says José Vicente Rangel, Mr Chávez’s former vice-president, “is confess our failure.”

He claims that the government, opposition, media and criminologists are all equally to blame. But, as critics point out, Mr Chávez controls most of the security forces, as well as the prisons; the courts and the prosecution service are in effect branches of the executive, too. Luis Cedeño, head of Incosec, a public-security think-tank, accuses the government of showing a “total lack of political interest” in tackling crime. But with crucial local elections due in November, even Mr Chávez has begun to worry.

A series of interior ministers (about one a year since 1999) has failed to slow the murder rate’s seemingly inexorable rise. However, the present incumbent, Ramón Rodríguez Chacín, a former naval-intelligence officer, claims to have achieved a 27% drop in homicides since he took over the job in January. Few independent experts believe this to be due to anything more than a creative massaging of the figures.

Many homicides never get into the official statistics. They include those killed while supposedly “resisting arrest”. Yet in exchanges of fire between police and alleged criminals, 39 suspects are killed for every policeman, suggesting not much “resistance” is taking place. Another large (and growing) group of suspicious deaths excluded from the official data are those that have not yet been categorised—and probably never will be—though most are likely to result from murder. And then there are the jail murders. Every year, two in every 100 prisoners (more than one a day) are killed, but they are left out of the statistics, too.

Although killings between rival gangs are included, they are dismissed by Mr Rodríguez Chacín as “not posing a threat to public safety”. That is not much comfort to Ana Pulido, who was seriously injured by a shotgun blast when a gang of hooded criminals mistook her house, in a poor area of Caracas, for the hideout of a rival gang member. Her daughter and son-in-law were also injured. “The wound is near my spine,” she says. “Now I can’t stand up or lie down.” The hoodlums threatened to burn down the house if she reported the incident to the police, so she refrained. They are now all dead anyway, she says, killed by their rivals.

Caracas is currently the second most dangerous city in the Americas (after San Salvador). Even by the official figures, the murder rate is 130 per 100,000; Mr Cedeño says the true figure is a staggering 166. One reason, he argues, is impunity. On average, only three of every 100 murderers are actually sentenced, he points out. Another is a presidential discourse that emphasises class warfare and has sometimes excused crime as a response to social inequality.

The government’s proposed solutions are mostly repressive. Last month Mr Chávez ordered national-guard troops with automatic rifles to protect passengers on Caracas buses in a move dismissed by crime experts as thoroughly inappropriate. Mr Cedeño prefers to advocate prevention. The recovery of public spaces, which in Caracas are mostly poorly lit and rendered inhospitable by street-trading and uncollected rubbish, would be a good start, he suggests. November’s elections may help—by removing some incompetent mayors. But full-scale institutional reform may require a change of mind, or even government, at national level.

Copyright © 2008 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.

Spider · 07-25-2008, 11:05 PM

well if we follow the Bush doctrine ....we invade Panama for this

That One Guy · 07-25-2008, 11:33 PM

Neato, a Bush comment right out of the box. Didn't see that one coming...

Spider · 07-25-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cah412

Neato, a Bush comment right out of the box. Didn't see that one coming...

well Bush is in charge ......... Or is it you are embarrassed voting for such a stupid Son of a b**** ?

That One Guy · 07-26-2008, 12:02 AM

And Walmart is meaning the end to small business everywhere. Wait? What's that, you say Walmart wasn't mentioned in the article either? Well why am I bringing it up then...

Spider · 07-26-2008, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cah412

And Walmart is meaning the end to small business everywhere. Wait? What's that, you say Walmart wasn't mentioned in the article either? Well why am I bringing it up then...

Um nice deflection but idiotic , Chavez has oil , Leader of a country , brutal dictator ....... I know you are grasping right now , but you have ot come up with a better defense , or give me a damn good solid reason why we went into Iraq .and dont give me this **** of WMD Al Qadea etc , bush knew it was all bull**** ........ Or realize we have a ****ing moron in office that has earned ridicule over everything

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 12:33 AM

Poor deflection, Spider...

That One Guy · 07-26-2008, 12:36 AM

Actually I used my find function and Iraq didn't come up until you mentioned it, Spider.

Again, do you have an opinion on the article or merely using it as a "Bush messed up in Iraq" forum?

Spider · 07-26-2008, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Poor deflection, Spider...

ok then .........Tell me why we are in Iraq .......And what is different that Chavez has done vs Saddam

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 12:41 AM

Let's stick to the topic, Spider. Quit being LABF's cabana boy...

Spider · 07-26-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cah412

Actually I used my find function and Iraq didn't come up until you mentioned it, Spider.

Again, do you have an opinion on the article or merely using it as a "Bush messed up in Iraq" forum?

Chavez is Valenzuela's problem .. But I want you Bush apologist you and W*GS to tell me what is difference is between Chavez and Saddam . if you guys can .........

Spider · 07-26-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Let's stick to the topic, Spider. Quit being LABF's cabana boy...

I knew you couldnt answer ........ not your fault , being Bush apologist is pretty hard thing to be now days ...so lets try this ....... If your Boy Bush was honest about spreading democracy , why isnt he invading Valenzuela?

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 12:47 AM

Why are more three times more Venezuelans being murdered now than when Chavez became President, Spider?

Quit deflecting to Bush - you're acting like you've OD'd on LABF's semen.

Spider · 07-26-2008, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Why are more three times more Venezuelans being murdered now than when Chavez became President, Spider?

Quit deflecting to Bush - you're acting like you've OD'd on LABF's semen.

Well if your Boy Bush was serious about democracy , they wouldnt be dying like that now would they ..........So now you tell me why iraq ?

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 12:54 AM

Definitely too much LABF.

Spider, it's sad that you've turned into LABF's biatch...

Spider · 07-26-2008, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Definitely too much LABF.

Spider, it's sad that you've turned into LABF's biatch...

I guess you will answer the questions as soon as you are done swinging from bush's nuts , but then W*GS you have always ran from tough questions .....

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 01:03 AM

Sigh. So, Spider, does he pay you, or do you take it from him for free?

Either way, you're a whore.

Spider · 07-26-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Sigh. So, Spider, does he pay you, or do you take it from him for free?

Either way, you're a whore.

Now I see why you dont belong to a gym ....... Dodgin , duckin side stepin , Backpeddalin , Spinnin ... you get a pretty good workout ........ you cant answer m question , just admit it and move on

W*GS · 07-26-2008, 01:08 AM

Re-read what I wrote in the first line of the first article in this thread, Spider.

The only spinner here is you - and where you're spinning, well, you know that better than I.

Spider · 07-26-2008, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Re-read what I wrote in the first line of the first article in this thread, Spider.

The only spinner here is you - and where you're spinning, well, you know that better than I.

still spinnin and not answering ........ W*GS I have yet to meet anyone that can sling so much bull**** and have nothing to say as you can ......

That One Guy · 07-26-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider

still spinnin and not answering ........ W*GS I have yet to meet anyone that can sling so much bull**** and have nothing to say as you can ......

find a shiny surface, you'll be suprised you know someone like that quite well.

cutthemdown · 07-26-2008, 04:36 AM

If it wasn't for all the corporations, doing all there corporaty stuff, in there big tall corporate buildings, then none of this would going on.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 07-26-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider

well if we follow the Bush doctrine ....we invade Panama for this

Chavez wouldn't even be a blip on the radar of the oil industry robber barons and Rand Institute types W*GS is blowing if he wasn't sitting on all that oil.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 07-26-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spider

still spinnin and not answering ........ W*GS I have yet to meet anyone that can sling so much bull**** and have nothing to say as you can ......

He's like a religious fundamentalist - except "free market" ideology is his religion and 'The Economist' is his Bible.

kappys · 07-26-2008, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W*GS

Why are more three times more Venezuelans being murdered now than when Chavez became President, Spider?

Quit deflecting to Bush - you're acting like you've OD'd on LABF's semen.

Good question. Of course teh article does nothing in terms of giving the reasons, so its impossible to know from this why the crime rate is so high.

Since we have no idea why its so high to say its all Chavez's fault is a bit premature. Granted as the President of the country its his responsbility to fix the problem.

07-25-2008, 07:43 PM	#1
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Deadly massage (I wonder how LABF and the other Chavez blowers will spin this...) Venezuela Deadly massage Jul 17th 2008 \| CARACAS From The Economist print edition How not to tackle a soaring murder rate One of Hugo Chávez’s lesser-known feats since taking over as Venezuela’s leader in 1999 is to have presided over a tripling of the annual homicide rate—and that’s according to the official statistics. Last year more than 13,000 people were killed in a country of 27m, producing a murder rate of 48 per 100,000, the second highest in the world (after El Salvador). In neighbouring Colombia, a country plagued by guerrilla war and drug violence, the rate was 40 per 100,000. Not surprisingly, violent crime far outweighs the other worries of Venezuelans. Three-quarters of them describe it as the worst problem now facing the country, polls show. “The first thing we need to do”, says José Vicente Rangel, Mr Chávez’s former vice-president, “is confess our failure.” He claims that the government, opposition, media and criminologists are all equally to blame. But, as critics point out, Mr Chávez controls most of the security forces, as well as the prisons; the courts and the prosecution service are in effect branches of the executive, too. Luis Cedeño, head of Incosec, a public-security think-tank, accuses the government of showing a “total lack of political interest” in tackling crime. But with crucial local elections due in November, even Mr Chávez has begun to worry. A series of interior ministers (about one a year since 1999) has failed to slow the murder rate’s seemingly inexorable rise. However, the present incumbent, Ramón Rodríguez Chacín, a former naval-intelligence officer, claims to have achieved a 27% drop in homicides since he took over the job in January. Few independent experts believe this to be due to anything more than a creative massaging of the figures. Many homicides never get into the official statistics. They include those killed while supposedly “resisting arrest”. Yet in exchanges of fire between police and alleged criminals, 39 suspects are killed for every policeman, suggesting not much “resistance” is taking place. Another large (and growing) group of suspicious deaths excluded from the official data are those that have not yet been categorised—and probably never will be—though most are likely to result from murder. And then there are the jail murders. Every year, two in every 100 prisoners (more than one a day) are killed, but they are left out of the statistics, too. Although killings between rival gangs are included, they are dismissed by Mr Rodríguez Chacín as “not posing a threat to public safety”. That is not much comfort to Ana Pulido, who was seriously injured by a shotgun blast when a gang of hooded criminals mistook her house, in a poor area of Caracas, for the hideout of a rival gang member. Her daughter and son-in-law were also injured. “The wound is near my spine,” she says. “Now I can’t stand up or lie down.” The hoodlums threatened to burn down the house if she reported the incident to the police, so she refrained. They are now all dead anyway, she says, killed by their rivals. Caracas is currently the second most dangerous city in the Americas (after San Salvador). Even by the official figures, the murder rate is 130 per 100,000; Mr Cedeño says the true figure is a staggering 166. One reason, he argues, is impunity. On average, only three of every 100 murderers are actually sentenced, he points out. Another is a presidential discourse that emphasises class warfare and has sometimes excused crime as a response to social inequality. The government’s proposed solutions are mostly repressive. Last month Mr Chávez ordered national-guard troops with automatic rifles to protect passengers on Caracas buses in a move dismissed by crime experts as thoroughly inappropriate. Mr Cedeño prefers to advocate prevention. The recovery of public spaces, which in Caracas are mostly poorly lit and rendered inhospitable by street-trading and uncollected rubbish, would be a good start, he suggests. November’s elections may help—by removing some incompetent mayors. But full-scale institutional reform may require a change of mind, or even government, at national level. Copyright © 2008 The Economist Newspaper and The Economist Group. All rights reserved.

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07-25-2008, 11:05 PM	#2
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	well if we follow the Bush doctrine ....we invade Panama for this

07-25-2008, 11:33 PM	#3
That One Guy Producer of Nonsense Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sun and Beachville Posts: 14,042 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Neato, a Bush comment right out of the box. Didn't see that one coming...

07-26-2008, 12:02 AM	#5
That One Guy Producer of Nonsense Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sun and Beachville Posts: 14,042 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	And Walmart is meaning the end to small business everywhere. Wait? What's that, you say Walmart wasn't mentioned in the article either? Well why am I bringing it up then...

07-26-2008, 12:33 AM	#7
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Poor deflection, Spider...

07-26-2008, 12:36 AM	#8
That One Guy Producer of Nonsense Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sun and Beachville Posts: 14,042 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Actually I used my find function and Iraq didn't come up until you mentioned it, Spider. Again, do you have an opinion on the article or merely using it as a "Bush messed up in Iraq" forum?

07-26-2008, 12:41 AM	#10
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Let's stick to the topic, Spider. Quit being LABF's cabana boy...

07-26-2008, 12:47 AM	#13
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Why are more three times more Venezuelans being murdered now than when Chavez became President, Spider? Quit deflecting to Bush - you're acting like you've OD'd on LABF's semen.

07-26-2008, 12:54 AM	#15
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Definitely too much LABF. Spider, it's sad that you've turned into LABF's biatch...

07-26-2008, 01:03 AM	#17
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Sigh. So, Spider, does he pay you, or do you take it from him for free? Either way, you're a whore.

07-26-2008, 01:08 AM	#19
W*GS Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Earth Posts: 19,488	Re-read what I wrote in the first line of the first article in this thread, Spider. The only spinner here is you - and where you're spinning, well, you know that better than I.

07-26-2008, 04:36 AM	#22
cutthemdown A verbis ad verbera Zimm to HOF Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Long Beach Posts: 32,416	If it wasn't for all the corporations, doing all there corporaty stuff, in there big tall corporate buildings, then none of this would going on.