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Old 07-01-2008, 08:30 AM   #1
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Default WTC rebuild schedule scrapped ... Freedom Tower name dropped. ...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,374202,00.html



I put this in normal forum not war room cause i wasn't wanting anything political in the thread just opinions of this other design ... If you haven't seen what they are building here it is .. and it is WAY over budget and FALLING way behind and it is a disgrace ...



Libeskind (LMDC) plan, 2006


LMDC plan for the memorials:
Memorials are beneath underground pools



I WISH they would have done this tho ... as much as i dislike Donald Trump i LOVED his plan for the WTC site .... If i had passed on 9/11 or had a love one that did , i think it would made me a little happy to know that they REBUILT the way it was in spite of the attacks .... look at this idea Trump had made up and summited

















the N.Y. city Sky Line would and could look like it should again...









PLEASE CHECK OUT THOSE 2 LINKS .... it is overview and a side by side compare

http://www.triroc.com/wtc/
http://www.triroc.com/wtc/twoplans/official.ours.htm
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:34 AM   #2
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That's a disgrace. That memorial should've been and stayed top priority in this nation until completion. I'm certain if they started a fund, the American people could get the money. The Trump idea does look awesome, but I think they scrapped that idea because the original towers were in debt, and viewed it as a repeat scenario (not 9/11, but financially)
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:37 AM   #3
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That's a disgrace. That memorial should've been and stayed top priority in this nation until completion. I'm certain if they started a fund, the American people could get the money. The Trump idea does look awesome, but I think they scrapped that idea because the original towers were in debt, and viewed it as a repeat scenario (not 9/11, but financially)
Yea Rev how that site can still be a whole in the ground and NO memorial is just a shame ... red tape at it's best ...
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:41 AM   #4
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While a Shame lets get Real. This is the real world. I would not put my kids in a Daycare in the new WTC. It is real easy to spend other peoples money.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:47 AM   #5
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While a Shame lets get Real. This is the real world. I would not put my kids in a Daycare in the new WTC. It is real easy to spend other peoples money.
explain pls ..... i didn't read anything anywhere in there on daycare , and i don't understand the other peoples money remark .... not trying to start a fight , i'm just asking ..


Do you mean you wouldn't put your kids there for the risk of another attack and i really don't understand the other peoples money thing ... as in to build the memorial or what ....

I'm really not trying to be a @$$hole i want to understand peoples opinions on this ...
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:47 AM   #6
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I work right down the block from the site on Wall Street and would move into an office there in a flash

it's a real shame because we've been waiting for what seems like forever for them to get something up
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:53 AM   #7
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explain pls ..... i didn't read anything anywhere in there on daycare , and i don't understand the other peoples money remark .... not trying to start a fight , i'm just asking ..


Do you mean you wouldn't put your kids there for the risk of another attack and i really don't understand the other peoples money thing ... as in to build the memorial or what ....

I'm really not trying to be a @$$hole i want to understand peoples opinions on this ...
The Daycare Remark is trying to put the real safety issues into a context people will understand. IE I would never risk my children's lives for the vanity of being in the WTC.

As to other peoples money. The Towers as far as I know are a privately held buildings and thus privately funded. This makes cost a concern.

The Memorials which are public are different issues.
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:53 AM   #8
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I work right down the block from the site on Wall Street and would move into an office there in a flash

it's a real shame because we've been waiting for what seems like forever for them to get something up


So Vance you think they should Use some sorta rebuild of the original and would you move into it no matter what was built there Freedom Towers or other , or would them being THE SAME be a part of what brought you to them ... a pride thing ... you being in N.Y. Vance i would like to hear more ...

And i think the building money wise would do ok Rev just outa people and companies moving to it outa civic pride type a thing ...

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Old 07-01-2008, 09:23 AM   #9
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I like Paul Laffoley's idea:

http://www.paranoiamagazine.com/gaudihotelshort.html

Gaudi's Grand Hotel on Ground Zero
A Proposal

By Paul Laffoley, Architect, A.I.A., 2002

There are many reasons why Gaudi's Grand Hotel should be built. Just a few of them are:

(1) Structual Strength. Gaudi's Grand Hotel is a structural ideal of Memento Mori (a Reminder of Death). Its own history is the death of an architectural ideal in 1908 which resulted in a deadly curse. Generically, an ideal is that which unites artistically in a single form all the excellencies found in nature in different individual forms of the same type or belonging to the same category. "The ideal," therefore, aims to be more perfect than anything that can be observed in nature and, thereby, proceeds from the artist's own vision of perfection, which is also a vision of death.

What Gaudi wanted was to utilize the catenary paraboloid (a surface all of whose intersections by planes yield either parabolas and ellipses, or parabolas and hyperbolas). Because the form is catenary in reverse (instead of resisting loads in complete tension) the form causes all its material to resist loads in complete compression.

The catenary, in its ideal form, is a curve assumed by a cord of uniform density and cross-section that is perfectly flexible but not capable of being stretched and that hangs freely from two fixed points. When a catenary surface occurs in nature in living membranes, for instance, it is subject to ever-changing wave fronts of energy which forms its matrix of strain, growth and repair. When the catenary is "frozen" in space, all of its material resists gravity. Being frozen in space also means frozen in time and, therefore, as ideal and changeless as death.

Since the structure of Gaudi's Grand Hotel is hollow and generally conical, its internal surface stresses are twisting shear stresses. This torsion is composed of a force couple (the applied torque and resisting torque). The hodograph of this stress pattern is the same as that which appears in all ordinary univalve seashells Đ the logarithmic spiral Đ the path of which the biologist Sir D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson (1860-1948) stated: "... is characteristic, not of that of living tissues, but of the dead. And for the same reason it will always or nearly always be accompanied, and adorned, by a pattern formed of "lines of growth," the lasting record of successive stages of form and magnitude."

Seashells are composed of aggregates of calcium carbonate, which is also used in making lime and portland cement. Gaudi planned to build the Grand Hotel of reinforced concrete in ringed sections. This process is as close as one can get to producing gigantic seashells. One of the fundamental structural principles of the seashell is to resist lateral thrusts of large creatures with large teeth. Or in the case of skyscrapers, the lateral forces of airplanes or guided missiles. Can we assume that Gaudi anticipated this far into the future?

(2) Permanent Memorial. Gaudi's Grand Hotel, because of its basic imprinting with the forms of death, would be the most appropriate structure as a memorial for the thousands of people who died at Ground Zero, another type of Memento Mori at the personal, social and emotional levels.

The center catenary paraboloid in Gaudi's design for the hotel is devoted to celebratory and memorial functions from the Space Tower Observatory to the great exhibition hall, 375 feet high (as high as the towers of Gaudi's masterpiece, "The Sagrada Familia") down through the large theater and lecture hall, down, down through the six enormous restaurants which symbolize the five continents of the Earth: Asia, Africa, Oceania, Europe, and America, until finally the lobby space at the footprint of the building, the extent of which fits directly over Ground Zero.

Since the lobby is 400'-0" in diameter and 150'-0" high, it would provide a lavish indoor burial ground for the hotel, complete with circumferential glazing and spectacular imagery of the universe obtained from the Hubble Space Telescope, holographic and virtual reality films of the attack on the World Trade Center; natural daylight could be delivered through the inside of the building by means of tubes that are mirrored on their interiors and curved as cylinders, spheres, and paraboloids. Also light rays are transferred without light loss by means of opti-thermal-imagers.

The other lobby areas surrounding the center area are so extensive that they can accommodate any number of visitors either to Ground Zero or the ten ancillary hotels that cluster around the main shaft.

(3) Celebration of New York City. While Gaudi's Grand Hotel would act as a permanent memorial for all those who lost their lives in the terrorist attacks, it would be paradoxically a celebration of the life for which New York City is famous. In the great exhibition space, Gaudi had planned to have enough space in this hall for gigantic statues of the Presidents, with enough pedestals remaining to take America into the Third Millennium. Much of this space could be devoted also to separate memorials for disaster victims, which would highlight the nature of the lives they led rather than just an indication of their existence.

In terms of the physical details, Gaudi had planned that his Grand Hotel would have the most lavish of surfacing materials used both for the interior and the exterior. On a base of structural reinforced concrete first would be placed heat resistant tiles (the kind used to surface rocketships for reentry into the earth's atmosphere), something obviously needed in the present, would be placed alabaster tiles, giving the exterior a pearlescent luster, along with different colored marbles and carved granite at the base of the cluster of towers. Beyond that, the structure would be surfaced with bits of debris (in this case from Ground Zero) terra cotta sculptures, minerals and fragments of colored glass.

The interior beyond the heat resistant tiles would have stained glass windows, sculptured surfaces of plaster, terra cotta, various woods, and historically formulaic interiors and elaborately modeled stucco. This slow-setting plaster known from antiquity was made of very fine sand, pulverized white carrara marble, gypsum (hydrated calcium sulfate), alabaster-dust and water, often with other additions, such as coloring provided by mixing in metallic oxides. Stucco was sometimes mixed with gum dissolved in lukewarm water. When the stucco was perfectly dry it was rubbed and polished.

(4) Social and Cultural Concerns. The major cultural issues concerning the design of a memorial for Ground Zero have emerged as:

o First, the general populace across the United States, and New York City in particular, wish to keep Ground Zero just as it is with no modifications for at least the next 100 years. Some prominent architects have underscored this decision;
o Second, the artistic and design communities of New York City are determined to create a physical memorial for Ground Zero. Other designers from the national and international venues echo these sentiments;
o Third, there is a need for a designer with whom everyone across the country can relate, whether or not they are from the professional design community or laymen;
o Fourth, also the selected designer must be of such a nature that he or she will not succumb to the temptation to indulge in the ego-mongering that most successful design professionals are subject to, thanks to the ubiquity of the media. Using the commission of a memorial to such an august historical event as Ground Zero as a chance for self-promotion would be totally counter to the spirit of the seriousness of the situation;
o Fifth, most everyone who has thought about it agrees that any structure used as the Ground Zero Memorial must not be used for any world trade commercial activities. From the start, the World Trade Center failed to fulfill its stated mission as being the business nexus for world trade. As time went on, more and more of its rentable space went to small computer based industries that would have been better served as rural cottage enterprises.

(5) Vision and Collective Involvement. It is my belief, therefore, that the Grand Hotel for New York City by Antonio Gaudi y Cornet, designed 94 years ago but never built at that time, if built today at and above the Ground Zero site will be able to meet the challenges of these and other issues regarding the memorialization of this national tragedy.

Gaudi died 76 years ago. His ego is not at stake, but his reputation is. Gaudi's reputation has been growing steadily since his death from that of an architectural oddity to one of the masters of architecture in the modern world. Eventually his work will be seen less as the marginalia of "Art Nouveau" and more as the anticipation of the physically alive technology that the inhabitants of earth will need in its quest to penetrate and live successfully on and in other planets and outer space. By then Gaudi will be hailed as the greatest architect of Modernism.

Hotels in the strictest sense are not commercial ventures, they are part of the "theater of life" and, as such, are often revived after they failed as businesses, because of the joy and urban history they have engendered. Consider the history of the Waldorf Astoria. In Gaudi's case, his New York Hotel has the potential for a double history, first as an unbuilt project, and second as a built work. Also it would not be a pastiche if built, but would be an actual new work.

Gaudi's Gothic sensibility elicited the very best of the creativity of his colleagues and subordinates. He carried on the medieval guild system of art working. Everyone regardless of their level of talent became involved in some part of a serious art project. This is exactly what would take place in bringing Gaudi's hotel to fruition. The design and artistic team would be almost self selected with people dropping out when they discover that they cannot perform as they claimed.

The basic fear about the hotel may be that there is no architect alive now with talent enough to match Gaudi's vision. But that is not the problem. Gaudi's vision is what will carry the day and inform the participants as to how to go about building it. The difficult part will be gathering the collective will to do it.

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Old 07-01-2008, 09:40 AM   #10
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So Vance you think they should Use some sorta rebuild of the original and would you move into it no matter what was built there Freedom Towers or other , or would them being THE SAME be a part of what brought you to them ... a pride thing ... you being in N.Y. Vance i would like to hear more ...

And i think the building money wise would do ok Rev just outa people and companies moving to it outa civic pride type a thing ...

well, you can call me stubborn or stupid but i would love to see something similar to what used to be there….All my life I lived in the shadow of the towers and not having them there really strips the city of a bit of personality….its as if Cindy Crawford had her mole forcibly removed

Well, I would love to have something up there that could be functional again….functional as in people working and it becoming the hub of the downtown NYC area again. However, this does not really represent the sentiment of all NYers. My boss had her entire client base wiped out that day on Sept. 11th and she can’t even walk near the area without melting down. Some people would just love to never be near those things again. I, on the other hand have the mentality that we should press on and make it more than a memorial, and have it become a business centerpiece of this city
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:42 AM   #11
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well, you can call me stubborn or stupid but i would love to see something similar to what used to be there….All my life I lived in the shadow of the towers and not having them there really strips the city of a bit of personality….its as if Cindy Crawford had her mole forcibly removed

Well, I would love to have something up there that could be functional again….functional as in people working and it becoming the hub of the downtown NYC area again. However, this does not really represent the sentiment of all NYers. My boss had her entire client base wiped out that day on Sept. 11th and she can’t even walk near the area without melting down. Some people would just love to never be near those things again. I, on the other hand have the mentality that we should press on and make it more than a memorial, and have it become a business centerpiece of this city
I completely agree and think it would be great to see, and I can't say I'm worried about a second attack on the same site. I think the only thing holding back that idea is that the location didn't make money the first time, why would it the second?
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:49 AM   #12
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Obviously Boston and New York are quite different in terms of overall office space, but I still find it amazing that there never seemed to be a real "crunch" after 9/11. If Boston all of a sudden lost that much office space in one day, I have no idea where everyone would go to work. There just isn't that much empty commercial space in and around the city to house that many companies.

Could that be part of the delay as well....all the empty office space that would start popping up around the city and lowering landlord's lease rates even more than they already have?
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:10 AM   #13
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Obviously Boston and New York are quite different in terms of overall office space, but I still find it amazing that there never seemed to be a real "crunch" after 9/11. If Boston all of a sudden lost that much office space in one day, I have no idea where everyone would go to work. There just isn't that much empty commercial space in and around the city to house that many companies.

Could that be part of the delay as well....all the empty office space that would start popping up around the city and lowering landlord's lease rates even more than they already have?
Remember that not only were the office space removed but also the people and business that were housed in those spaces.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:10 AM   #14
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I completely agree and think it would be great to see, and I can't say I'm worried about a second attack on the same site. I think the only thing holding back that idea is that the location didn't make money the first time, why would it the second?
Third
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:20 AM   #15
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Don't be surprised if Paterson yanks any State funding slated for this. Since Spitzer resigned, this creep has been on a slash and burn crusade that has made Pataki's state budget cuts seem minor and petty by comparison.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:23 AM   #16
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Don't be surprised if Paterson yanks any State funding slated for this. Since Spitzer resigned, this creep has been on a slash and burn crusade that has made Pataki's state budget cuts seem minor and petty by comparison.
It's just a case of the blind leading the blind.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:24 AM   #17
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I would love to see them put 2 more towers along with the memorials.It would be a proud site to see.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:26 AM   #18
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I completely agree and think it would be great to see, and I can't say I'm worried about a second attack on the same site. I think the only thing holding back that idea is that the location didn't make money the first time, why would it the second?
true...they did move a lot of the larger corporate offices out of that actual building (including Dean Witter/Morgan Stanley where my uncle worked after the first bomb) but there were still a lot of smaller offices and it still was quite the hub of activity if you included hte surrounding buildings (like Building #7, etc...) I just miss the fact that i can't come out of the subway and look straight up in the sky anymore...instead i look at wooden planks and chain link fencing....its like a constant reminder that we can't unite on what the hell we want to do with that area

the day i can go back over there, sit on a park bench and have my lunch will be the day I'm happy again...its not about the money of it anymore, but the representation of something greater....i dont know, i just find it demoralizing that its taking so much time to come to a consensus
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:27 AM   #19
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It's just a case of the blind leading the blind.
He's a one termer...he's going to mess with the Star program (talk about political suicide) and everyone connected to any state agency has already had enough of him. The sooner the better.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:27 AM   #20
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It's just a case of the blind leading the blind.
haha...nice
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:31 AM   #21
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it doesnt suprise me in the slightest. thats new york construction IMHO. always over budget and late. i actually expected it. they cannot make the memorial unfortunately because they actually have to build the buildings. there is a building that is already up though. even yankee stadium and citifield are overbudget. wouldnt shock me if its a shell when they open. personally i would have prefferred a rebuild of the old one with upgrades of course. but that wont happen and i understand why. with this new diagram, they want to spread out a lot of the institutions so that in the event of another catastrophy, it wont crippl e the economy in any way.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:47 AM   #22
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Remember that not only were the office space removed but also the people and business that were housed in those spaces.
Only a tiny fraction. Approximately 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center. About 2,000 of the deaths on 9/11 were people that worked there, so there were approximately 48,000 looking for office space on 9/12. That's a lot of folks.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:48 AM   #23
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Some guy had the idea of filling the area with a farm that lets buffalo roam to show how wild and free we really are.

I always liked this idea
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:55 AM   #24
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Only a tiny fraction. Approximately 50,000 people worked in the World Trade Center. About 2,000 of the deaths on 9/11 were people that worked there, so there were approximately 48,000 looking for office space on 9/12. That's a lot of folks.
How many of the businesses closed though?
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:26 AM   #25
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I think they should put some kind of functional building back. I agree a memorial is needed, but I don't think the whole area should be left vacant.
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