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[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Perry's voice is a strident imitation of Sam Cooke's.

I thought maybe that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure.

How so?

I don't get it.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

(meaning some will always perfer the overwrought over the subtle, no matter what.)

Once again, these distinctions are purely subjective, i.e., all in the ear of the beholder.

One man's "overwrought" is another man's "powerful" or "emotional."

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

I thought maybe that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure.

How so?

I don't get it.

C'mon...you can't hear it?

Once again, these distinctions are purely subjective, i.e., all in the ear of the beholder.

One man's "overwrought" is another man's "powerful" or "emotional."

Yeah, sure

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

C'mon...you can't hear it?

No.

What are the similarities, in your estimation?

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

No.

What are the similarities, in your estimation?

If you cannot hear the similarities between the two voices, you either a) don't want to acknowledge them for the sake of arguement or b) you're tone deaf. Either way there's not much further I can do to help you out.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

If you cannot hear the similarities between the two voices, you either a) don't want to acknowledge them for the sake of arguement or b) you're tone deaf. Either way there's not much further I can do to help you out.

Tone deaf?

Um, OK - I'll take that as a "no, I can't define the similarities in any real musical terms."

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Tone deaf?

Um, OK - I'll take that as a "no, I can't define the similarities in any real musical terms."

No, take it as it's too early in the AM to hold ones hand for a trip thru the obivous...so I'll just use your usual dodge of "these distinctions are purely subjective, i.e., all in the ear of the beholder" and leave it for another time.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

No, take it as it's too early in the AM to hold ones hand for a trip thru the obivous...so I'll just use your usual dodge of "these distinctions are purely subjective, i.e., all in the ear of the beholder" and leave it for another time.

OK, how about this:

For the benefit of us "tone deaf" people whose understanding and/or appreciation of music isn't on the same level as yours, could you give us some song titles (Youtube videos or sound clips would be even better) that illustrate these "obvious" similarities?

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

OK, how about this:

For the benefit of us "tone deaf" people whose understanding and/or appreciation of music isn't on the same level as yours, could you give us some song titles (Youtube videos or sound clips would be even better) that illustrate these "obvious" similarities?

You can't be serious...I mean this is almost common knowledge stuff we're talking here. Okay, just in case you are indeed serious and you're not really just arguing for argument's sake or defending a fave vocalist to the hilt against a slight.....all you have to do is google the two names together and you'll find many articles about the similarities between them.

Here, here's even a link to a Sach's article (in the Huffington Post no less) that is only 13 days old on the very subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-s..._b_110186.html

Hope this finally clears things up for you, Enjoy.

[Kaylore]

There's no question Sam Cooke and Perry have a very similar style. I'm not sure how that is a slight on Perry, though. Cooke was a badass.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

There's no question Sam Cooke and Perry have a very similar style. I'm not sure how that is a slight on Perry, though. Cooke was a badass.

Perry was heavily influenced by Cooke to the point where he outright imitated him....which is no problem really. The problem is trying to adapt that vocal style to arena rock and power ballads, where it came off as over the top and strident more often than not.

Of course, that's just my purely subjective opinion

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

You can't be serious...I mean this is almost common knowledge stuff we're talking here.

"Common knowledge," eh?

And to think I've been kept out of the loop all these years.

BTW, it's not "knowledge" we're talking about here - it's perception, association, opinion, etc.

If Perry reminds you of Cooke in some way, then that's your perception and no one can deny it.

However, that doesn't mean everyone is going to perceive or hear Perry the same way.

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Here, here's even a link to a Sach's article (in the Huffington Post no less) that is only 13 days old on the very subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-s..._b_110186.html

Well, at least this "Sach" guy attempted to explain in musical terms the supposed similarities between Perry and Cooke (albeit in a rather uneducated way.)

And pointing out that Perry named Cooke as an "early inspiration" is about as meaningful as pointing out that Stevie Ray Vaughan or Robin Trower (or about a gazillion other guitar players) named Jimi Hendrix as an early influence.

It's pretty hard to escape the great sieve of influence entirely insofar as the greats who came before you wrote the language you're using to communicate.

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Hope this finally clears things up for you

The only thing it 'clears up' for me is that you think Steve Perry sounds like Sam Cooke - to an extent that you seem to stop just short of accusing Perry of ripping Cooke's style.

But this opinion was already clear a few posts ago.

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Of course, that's just my purely subjective opinion

And I'm sure Perry and the other members of Journey are giving your opinion a lot of serious thought every time they cash this month's royalty check.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

There's no question Sam Cooke and Perry have a very similar style. I'm not sure how that is a slight on Perry, though. Cooke was a badass.

It's not necessarily a slight, but it sort of cuts both ways.

Every musician has heroes and influences, and sometimes when a listener or a fan tells you "hey, that sounded just like "_______" it's a compliment.

However, it's an entirely different proposition when someone implies (gratuitously) that you sound so much like "_________" that your entire sound and style is derivative.

But that just reaffirms the old adage that "those who can, do - those who can't sit on the sidelines and criticize."

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

"Common knowledge," eh?

And to think I've been kept out of the loop all these years.

That's not my problem

BTW, it's not "knowledge" we're talking about here - it's perception, association, opinion, etc.

If Perry reminds you of Cooke in some way, then that's your perception and no one can deny it.

However, that doesn't mean everyone is going to perceive or hear Perry the same way.

It's a perception that's pretty widely shared, of course, you're just arguing for the sake of it now, so why let that stop you in any way.

Well, at least this "Sach" guy attempted to explain in musical terms the supposed similarities between Perry and Cooke (albeit in a rather uneducated way.)

Of all the articles on the subject, I chose that one because of it's simplicity...I suppose that because it doesn't break it down to the point of voice timbre and pitch that it's not good enough for you, but you've just taken a position now anyways, so nothing is going to be good enough at this point.

And pointing out that Perry named Cooke as an "early inspiration" is about as meaningful as pointing out that Stevie Ray Vaughan or Robin Trower (or about a gazillion other guitar players) named Jimi Hendrix as an early influence.

It's pretty hard to escape the great sieve of influence entirely insofar as the greats who came before you wrote the language you're using to communicate.

First, you dismiss the meaningfulness of influence and then follow it up with a point capitulation on it, nice.

The only thing it 'clears up' for me is that you think Steve Perry sounds like Sam Cooke - to an extent that you seem to stop just short of accusing Perry of ripping Cooke's style.

But this opinion was already clear a few posts ago.

I don't believe I ever stopped short of stating just that.

And I'm sure Perry and the other members of Journey are giving your opinion a lot of serious thought every time they cash this month's royalty check.

Irrelevent.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

That's not my problem

Oh, but it is.

It's the same problem as always - you mistaking your opinions, perceptions, impressions, or tastes for facts.

Originally Posted by Hogan11

It's a perception that's pretty widely shared, of course, you're just arguing for the sake of it now, so why let that stop you in any way.

A perception that is "widely shared" is still just a perception when we're talking about art.

A lot of rock critics hated Led Zeppelin and wrote scathing reviews of most of LZ's records during the 70s.

Just because you could find a large number of critics who agreed that LZ sucked, does that consensus make it so?

Only in their "expert" opinions.

And when it comes to music, I never argue "just for the sake of it."

Originally Posted by Hogan11

First, you dismiss the meaningfulness of influence and then follow it up with a point capitulation on it, nice.

Somehow you are seeing a contradiction where there isn't one.

My point was that yes, Perry acknowledged Cooke as an early inspiration, but this fact doesn't mean as much as you want it to.

That is, it's hardly more meaningful to note Perry was influenced by Cooke than it is to say "________" (insert the names of about a gazillion rock guitarists) were influenced by Hendrix.

In other words, if you're musician, it's inevitable that listeners are going to hear various influences in your playing (or singing) insofar as you are using a language that was created by the greats who came before you.

At any rate, since you're all about the bandwagon appeals, can you show that there's some wide consensus view among critics that supports your accusation that Perry blatantly ripped Cooke's sound and style? (I'm not talking about just "influenced" or "inspired" here.)

[FADERPROOF]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Oh, but it is.

It's the same problem as always - you mistaking your opinions, perceptions, impressions, or tastes for facts.



A perception that is "widely shared" is still just a perception when we're talking about art.

A lot of rock critics hated Led Zeppelin and wrote scathing reviews of most of LZ's records during the 70s.

Just because you could find a large number of critics who agreed that LZ sucked, does that consensus make it so?

Only in their "expert" opinions.

And when it comes to music, I never argue "just for the sake of it."



Somehow you are seeing a contradiction where there isn't one.

My point was that yes, Perry acknowledged Cooke as an early inspiration, but this fact doesn't mean as much as you want it to.

That is, it's hardly more meaningful to note Perry was influenced by Cooke than it is to say "________" (insert the names of about a gazillion rock guitarists) were influenced by Hendrix.

In other words, if you're musician, it's inevitable that listeners are going to hear various influences in your playing (or singing) insofar as you are using a language that was created by the greats who came before you.

At any rate, since you're all about the bandwagon appeals, can you show that there's some wide consensus view among critics that supports your accusation that Perry blatantly ripped Cooke's sound and style? (I'm not talking about just "influenced" or "inspired" here.)

seriously, just give this argument up.

[DB-Freak]

lol at this whole argument.

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Perry was heavily influenced by Cooke to the point where he outright imitated him....which is no problem really. The problem is trying to adapt that vocal style to arena rock and power ballads, where it came off as over the top and strident more often than not.

Of course, that's just my purely subjective opinion

So you feel Perry's style doesn't fit his genre. But if Perry sang do-wop and covered some early mo-town hits you would be calling him a poseur.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by FADERPROOF

seriously, just give this argument up.

Seriously, unless you have an argument of your own (or something of substance to contribute) then butt out.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

So you feel Perry's style doesn't fit his genre. But if Perry sang do-wop and covered some early mo-town hits you would be calling him a poseur.

Yep.

By Hogan's logic, if I'm a guitarist who uses compound bends in my playing, then I'm ripping David Gilmour's style and I'm nothing but a Gilmour clone.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by FADERPROOF

seriously, just give this argument up.

It's his same ole tired arguments when it comes to this area....nobody else is a session guy or plays professionally, therefore, no one else is entitled to have an opinion on the subject that's valid because it is uninformed..the old "those who can, do - those who can't sit on the sidelines and criticize" line of bullshat. Too bad he doesn't apply the same logic to his politics as (as far as I know) he holds no political position or holds any office of any kind.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

So you feel Perry's style doesn't fit his genre. But if Perry sang do-wop and covered some early mo-town hits you would be calling him a poseur.

This is a wrong assumption on your part. If Perry ever did come out with such an album (like say Rod Stewert did in the early 90's) it would probably be his best work provided he worked within the material he had (meaning knowing actually how to be restrained when he needed to be, etc.) If he ever came up with some original material and adopted it to that style, it would be even cooler and more successful...but probably commercially ignored.

The point is moot because he's more interested in going to baseball games nowadays than doing anything musically anyways.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Yep.

By Hogan's logic, if I'm a guitarist who uses compound bends in my playing, then I'm ripping David Gilmour's style and I'm nothing but a Gilmour clone.

Originality is never the session guy's strong suit.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

It's his same ole tired arguments when it comes to this area....nobody else is a session guy or plays professionally, therefore, no one else is entitled to have an opinion on the subject that's valid because it is uninformed..the old "those who can, do - those who can't sit on the sidelines and criticize" line of bullshat. Too bad he doesn't apply the same logic to his politics as (as far as I know) he holds no political position or holds any office of any kind.

That's a complete and utter misrepresentation of what just happened.

I simply asked you to explain yourself and to elaborate with some specifics when you made the claim that Steve Perry had ripped Sam Cooke's sound and style.

Failing that, you responded by with the usual, snooty "it should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about music" kind of retort (and even suggested I must certainly be "tone deaf" if I didn't share your "expert" opinion.)

FYI, I don't begrudge anyone his or her opinion - however educated - when it comes to music.

I simply find it off-putting when people like you act as though your opinions or tastes are more than just opinions or tastes.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Originality is never the session guy's strong suit.

Ah, so now you feel you are somehow justified in broad-brushing an entire class of musicians who make all or part of their living as session players.

(You do understand how many musicians of various instruments, backgrounds, and styles that encompasses, right?)

Your exhibitions of musical knowledge and maturity just keep getting more impressive by the minute.