Will the Supreme Court Play Ball With Fantasy Baseball Leagues? - The Orange Mane

TDmvp · 05-29-2008, 07:48 PM

WTF and i just seen where now league teams ARE no longer aloud to use real MLB lookalike jerseys and team names unless they pay the MLB ... and now this

greedy much MLB ??

Supreme Court could take up whether fans' online baseball competitions should pay for using player names, statistics

A fantasy sports league is facing a very real lawsuit from Major League Baseball, and the U.S. Supreme Court is deciding right now whether it wants to play ball.

At issue is a big case roiling the sports world: Can MLB and its players charge fantasy leagues for the right to use their names and statistics?

Fantasy leagues are operated by players who manage imaginary teams based on the stats of real-life athletes. Depending on how their players perform, their fantasy teams thrive or dive in carefully monitored standings.

A St. Louis-based company called CBC Distribution and Marketing Inc. says that companies shouldn’t have to pay licensing fees to use those figures — and they’ve already won their case in two lower courts, so MLB has filed an appeal to the nation's highest court.

A decision from the Supreme Court could have a broad impact on the fantasy league industry, which generates more than $1.5 billion annually from millions of participants.

MLB and its players association have argued that it’s a question of intellectual property — that the players’ names and stats belong to the players and the league.

They say using that information on a fantasy baseball product might suggest an endorsement, and amounts to stealing money. MLB is supported in its suit by professional football, basketball, hockey and other organizations.

Some large media companies, such as Yahoo and ESPN, already pay millions in licensing fees to use names and stats in their fantasy leagues, and they operate with MLB’s blessing.

But smaller companies are balking at paying such fees. CBC has argued that players’ names and stats are in the public domain, as they are easily found in newspapers and on TV.

“When you’re using mass information, it’s protected under the First Amendment,” said CBC attorney Rudy Telscher during a hearing in the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals.

MLB’s attorneys have argued in court that online fantasy games exploit players by effectively turning them into game pieces and using their names to draw more customers.

“There’s no way of escaping the fact that players’ names are on the product,” attorney Virginia Seitz said.

In a 2-1 decision in October, the 8th Circuit Court panel ruled that CBC doesn’t have to pay the players, even though it profits by using their names and statistics. The court found that fantasy leagues’ broad use of statistics isn’t the same as faking an endorsement.

The Supreme Court is expected to determine as early as Monday whether it will review MLB's case. It remains to be seen whether that nine-man team will overturn the lower courts' decisions, but for now these fantasy leagues are still batting a thousand.

nickademus · 05-29-2008, 11:51 PM

This is the worst thing I have ever seen or herd of. if MLB doesnt want players names or stats used in fantasy leagues then they should not make the information public, so cheering for the First Baseman instead of Puljos is what they will be stuck with and as far as the statistics go it would be pretty hard to just play the game for fun becuase the score is a stat. This Is utter BS and exemplifyes everything that is wrong in the world.

Taco John · 05-30-2008, 12:04 AM

I love baseball. It's a great game. I'm glad that I was re-introduced to the sport through fantasy-baseball, which I also love to be a part of. Both have become very integrated to me. I love to talk about games and happenings with my friends, but ultimately, we end up talking about our own teams, our own situations, and management decisions that we're making in our keeper leagues. It would be a shame to see it spoiled.

Killericon · 05-30-2008, 12:39 AM

Bud Selig - "Hrmmm...This Fantasy Baseball thing is really generating an interest in our sport...SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"

Cosmo · 05-30-2008, 01:43 AM

Everytime I come close to enjoying baseball again (strike after strike after steroids) they do something stupid again. I'm glad the NFL knows how to do it right.

elsid13 · 05-30-2008, 07:05 AM

It all about money. Fantasy sports have grown into multi-billion business and owners want that money. I am surprised that NFL hasn't joined the suit, because they were attempt to do something similar last year.

Hopefully the Supreme Courts rule in the public favor.

elsid13 · 05-30-2008, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmo

Everytime I come close to enjoying baseball again (strike after strike after steroids) they do something stupid again. I'm glad the NFL knows how to do it right.

The NFL is hoping that MLB wins this. They want a piece of the pie too!

TexanBob · 05-30-2008, 11:27 AM

My own personal belief is that nobody should own history. History is the series of facts that have been found to occur and nobody should claim ownership of those facts. If they happened, they happened and it is history.

That is not the same as intellectual property (i.e. songs, movies, plays) which are blendings of truth and fiction for artistic purposes. That is not the same as logos and trademarks - for which many professional leagues have already prosecuted various websites.

Fantasy leagues are collecting history and creating an alternate universe out of it for the sake of playing a game. I think the lower courts are correct and hope the U.S. Supreme Court sees it the same way.

worm · 05-30-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanBob

My own personal belief is that nobody should own history. History is the series of facts that have been found to occur and nobody should claim ownership of those facts. If they happened, they happened and it is history.

That is not the same as intellectual property (i.e. songs, movies, plays) which are blendings of truth and fiction for artistic purposes. That is not the same as logos and trademarks - for which many professional leagues have already prosecuted various websites.

Fantasy leagues are collecting history and creating an alternate universe out of it for the sake of playing a game. I think the lower courts are correct and hope the U.S. Supreme Court sees it the same way.

Well said. I agree.

That One Guy · 05-30-2008, 12:07 PM

Nobody is trying to do away with fantasy sports - they've done wonders for popularity of sports. All they want is the right to charge someone millions upon millions to be THE official fantasy football, baseball, etc site. The NFL and other sports leagues support the MLB in this but they're laying low in the shadows to see what happens. If MLB wins, NFL would surely jump on that judgement. Meanwhile, if the small companies win... it'll be interesting to see if Yahoo continues to pay if they aren't required to. They may do it to still be endorsed but this seems like a double edged sword for MLB. If they win they win millions but if they lose, they lose alot.

TexanBob · 05-30-2008, 01:28 PM

What they want is money. It's no simpler than that. The leagues hate the thought that somebody else is making money off their product without the leagues getting a cut.

epicSocialism4tw · 05-30-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanBob

What they want is money. It's no simpler than that. The leagues hate the thought that somebody else is making money off their product without the leagues getting a cut.

I guess that they value that extra dollar more than they do the outstanding peripheral free advertising that they get from fantasy sports.

I for one will never pay for a game of fantasy sports. They can keep it if they want it that badly.

That One Guy · 05-30-2008, 02:06 PM

I wont pay either but they're smart enough not to charge for it... charging for a service kills its popularity. If they force the issue too much, things will go back to pre-internet days where it was all hand jammed. I didn't even know it existed back then but apparently it was. If it comes down to it, I can write an excel to calculate it all in about 15 minutes. They can't stop fantasy football... they can make Yahoo, NFL.com, etc the official and only endorsed FF site.

epicSocialism4tw · 05-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cah412

I wont pay either but they're smart enough not to charge for it... charging for a service kills its popularity. If they force the issue too much, things will go back to pre-internet days where it was all hand jammed. I didn't even know it existed back then but apparently it was. If it comes down to it, I can write an excel to calculate it all in about 15 minutes. They can't stop fantasy football... they can make Yahoo, NFL.com, etc the official and only endorsed FF site.

those places will charge for it if they have to pay for licensed information.

Beantown Bronco · 05-30-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angryllama

those places will charge for it if they have to pay for licensed information.

not necessarily. Yahoo leagues are still free to the public even though they already pay the league.

NaptownChief · 05-30-2008, 04:17 PM

MLB and the other leagues better be careful cause they are walking a fine line trying to gouge folks for more money. Fantasy sports is a gigantic reason for the success of the NFL and MLB.

There is a much, much larger following because of fantasy interest and they also collect a lot of extra money as result. Beside the huge money they get in TV contracts because of the extra interest they also sell a lot of the NFL and MLB Season Ticket packages on DirecTV as a result. I give both of those leagues over $250 per year buying both every year in HD simply because of fantasy sports. If it weren't for fantasy sports I would still be a fan but I wouldn't buy those $250 plus sports packages and I wouldn't follow the entire league very closely but rather just my favorite teams.

They shouldn't mess with the diet of the goose that has been laying golden eggs.

Hotrod · 05-30-2008, 04:21 PM

My hats off to MLB its about time they got paid for their product.

nickademus · 05-30-2008, 04:50 PM

The MLB is destined to become the NHL when we can only find games on VS. network and only the playoffs are seriously covered by any sports reporting maybe they will get that alienateing their fans is tantramount to suicide.

broncocalijohn · 06-01-2008, 02:35 AM

going after the Little League unis should be first priority. Then when you get the last of the American kids playing baseball to turn to another individual sport, then it is time to go after the guy who knows everything about the game, spends money on his favorite fantasy players (trust me, i have seen these guys buy jerseys) and spreads the great game of baseball to his friends. What we have here is a very dumb commissioner and handlers that tell him what to proceed on. This isnt a company with stock. It is a few millionaires that want another big cut off of those that pay for their product. Dumb move once again.

serfrocker · 06-01-2008, 09:20 AM

they would have to sue all the Vegas casinos next. that's a whole city built off of use of their sacred intellectual property.

05-29-2008, 07:48 PM	#1
TDmvp Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 8,053	Will the Supreme Court Play Ball With Fantasy Baseball Leagues? WTF and i just seen where now league teams ARE no longer aloud to use real MLB lookalike jerseys and team names unless they pay the MLB ... and now this greedy much MLB ?? Supreme Court could take up whether fans' online baseball competitions should pay for using player names, statistics A fantasy sports league is facing a very real lawsuit from Major League Baseball, and the U.S. Supreme Court is deciding right now whether it wants to play ball. At issue is a big case roiling the sports world: Can MLB and its players charge fantasy leagues for the right to use their names and statistics? Fantasy leagues are operated by players who manage imaginary teams based on the stats of real-life athletes. Depending on how their players perform, their fantasy teams thrive or dive in carefully monitored standings. A St. Louis-based company called CBC Distribution and Marketing Inc. says that companies shouldn’t have to pay licensing fees to use those figures — and they’ve already won their case in two lower courts, so MLB has filed an appeal to the nation's highest court. A decision from the Supreme Court could have a broad impact on the fantasy league industry, which generates more than $1.5 billion annually from millions of participants. MLB and its players association have argued that it’s a question of intellectual property — that the players’ names and stats belong to the players and the league. They say using that information on a fantasy baseball product might suggest an endorsement, and amounts to stealing money. MLB is supported in its suit by professional football, basketball, hockey and other organizations. Some large media companies, such as Yahoo and ESPN, already pay millions in licensing fees to use names and stats in their fantasy leagues, and they operate with MLB’s blessing. But smaller companies are balking at paying such fees. CBC has argued that players’ names and stats are in the public domain, as they are easily found in newspapers and on TV. “When you’re using mass information, it’s protected under the First Amendment,” said CBC attorney Rudy Telscher during a hearing in the 8th Circuit Court of Appeals. MLB’s attorneys have argued in court that online fantasy games exploit players by effectively turning them into game pieces and using their names to draw more customers. “There’s no way of escaping the fact that players’ names are on the product,” attorney Virginia Seitz said. In a 2-1 decision in October, the 8th Circuit Court panel ruled that CBC doesn’t have to pay the players, even though it profits by using their names and statistics. The court found that fantasy leagues’ broad use of statistics isn’t the same as faking an endorsement. The Supreme Court is expected to determine as early as Monday whether it will review MLB's case. It remains to be seen whether that nine-man team will overturn the lower courts' decisions, but for now these fantasy leagues are still batting a thousand. Last edited by TDmvp; 05-29-2008 at 07:51 PM..

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05-29-2008, 11:51 PM	#2
nickademus Samurai of Smack Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,105 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eddie Royal	This is the worst thing I have ever seen or herd of. if MLB doesnt want players names or stats used in fantasy leagues then they should not make the information public, so cheering for the First Baseman instead of Puljos is what they will be stuck with and as far as the statistics go it would be pretty hard to just play the game for fun becuase the score is a stat. This Is utter BS and exemplifyes everything that is wrong in the world.

05-30-2008, 12:04 AM	#3
Taco John 24/7 Broncos In Elway I Trust Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 49,705 Adopt-a-Bronco: Peyton Manning	I love baseball. It's a great game. I'm glad that I was re-introduced to the sport through fantasy-baseball, which I also love to be a part of. Both have become very integrated to me. I love to talk about games and happenings with my friends, but ultimately, we end up talking about our own teams, our own situations, and management decisions that we're making in our keeper leagues. It would be a shame to see it spoiled.

05-30-2008, 12:39 AM	#4
Killericon YES A DT!!!!!! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: From Calgary, in Halifax for School Posts: 7,730 Adopt-a-Bronco: watermock	Bud Selig - "Hrmmm...This Fantasy Baseball thing is really generating an interest in our sport...SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!"

05-30-2008, 01:43 AM	#5
Cosmo Perennial Pro-bowler Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Greeley Colorado!!! Posts: 957	Everytime I come close to enjoying baseball again (strike after strike after steroids) they do something stupid again. I'm glad the NFL knows how to do it right.

05-30-2008, 07:05 AM	#6
elsid13 Lost In Space Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: DC Posts: 19,087	It all about money. Fantasy sports have grown into multi-billion business and owners want that money. I am surprised that NFL hasn't joined the suit, because they were attempt to do something similar last year. Hopefully the Supreme Courts rule in the public favor.

05-30-2008, 11:27 AM	#8
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	My own personal belief is that nobody should own history. History is the series of facts that have been found to occur and nobody should claim ownership of those facts. If they happened, they happened and it is history. That is not the same as intellectual property (i.e. songs, movies, plays) which are blendings of truth and fiction for artistic purposes. That is not the same as logos and trademarks - for which many professional leagues have already prosecuted various websites. Fantasy leagues are collecting history and creating an alternate universe out of it for the sake of playing a game. I think the lower courts are correct and hope the U.S. Supreme Court sees it the same way.

05-30-2008, 12:07 PM	#10
That One Guy Producer of Nonsense Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sun and Beachville Posts: 14,042 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	Nobody is trying to do away with fantasy sports - they've done wonders for popularity of sports. All they want is the right to charge someone millions upon millions to be THE official fantasy football, baseball, etc site. The NFL and other sports leagues support the MLB in this but they're laying low in the shadows to see what happens. If MLB wins, NFL would surely jump on that judgement. Meanwhile, if the small companies win... it'll be interesting to see if Yahoo continues to pay if they aren't required to. They may do it to still be endorsed but this seems like a double edged sword for MLB. If they win they win millions but if they lose, they lose alot.

05-30-2008, 01:28 PM	#11
TexanBob Don't Argue With Me You Know I'm Right Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 5,023 Adopt-a-Bronco: Darris Nash	What they want is money. It's no simpler than that. The leagues hate the thought that somebody else is making money off their product without the leagues getting a cut.

05-30-2008, 02:06 PM	#13
That One Guy Producer of Nonsense Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sun and Beachville Posts: 14,042 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	I wont pay either but they're smart enough not to charge for it... charging for a service kills its popularity. If they force the issue too much, things will go back to pre-internet days where it was all hand jammed. I didn't even know it existed back then but apparently it was. If it comes down to it, I can write an excel to calculate it all in about 15 minutes. They can't stop fantasy football... they can make Yahoo, NFL.com, etc the official and only endorsed FF site.

05-30-2008, 04:17 PM	#16
NaptownChief Donkeys Nightmare Football Pimp Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 7,490	MLB and the other leagues better be careful cause they are walking a fine line trying to gouge folks for more money. Fantasy sports is a gigantic reason for the success of the NFL and MLB. There is a much, much larger following because of fantasy interest and they also collect a lot of extra money as result. Beside the huge money they get in TV contracts because of the extra interest they also sell a lot of the NFL and MLB Season Ticket packages on DirecTV as a result. I give both of those leagues over $250 per year buying both every year in HD simply because of fantasy sports. If it weren't for fantasy sports I would still be a fan but I wouldn't buy those $250 plus sports packages and I wouldn't follow the entire league very closely but rather just my favorite teams. They shouldn't mess with the diet of the goose that has been laying golden eggs.

05-30-2008, 04:21 PM	#17
Hotrod Self Appointed Expert aka Dortoh Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 25,136 Adopt-a-Bronco: Miss I	My hats off to MLB its about time they got paid for their product.

05-30-2008, 04:50 PM	#18
nickademus Samurai of Smack Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,105 Adopt-a-Bronco: Eddie Royal	The MLB is destined to become the NHL when we can only find games on VS. network and only the playoffs are seriously covered by any sports reporting maybe they will get that alienateing their fans is tantramount to suicide.

06-01-2008, 02:35 AM	#19
broncocalijohn Famer of Rings My Dog Richard Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lake Forest, Orange County, Calif. Posts: 18,468 Adopt-a-Bronco: Simon Fletcher	going after the Little League unis should be first priority. Then when you get the last of the American kids playing baseball to turn to another individual sport, then it is time to go after the guy who knows everything about the game, spends money on his favorite fantasy players (trust me, i have seen these guys buy jerseys) and spreads the great game of baseball to his friends. What we have here is a very dumb commissioner and handlers that tell him what to proceed on. This isnt a company with stock. It is a few millionaires that want another big cut off of those that pay for their product. Dumb move once again.

06-01-2008, 09:20 AM	#20
serfrocker Just Drafted New to the Forum Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 6 Adopt-a-Bronco: None	they would have to sue all the Vegas casinos next. that's a whole city built off of use of their sacred intellectual property.