We are going to hell

[Bob]

Americans are divided, and pitted against each other endlessly -- and we think it can last forever without dire consequences?

I still believe that what unites Americans is much greater than what divides us, and as I see very bad times coming -- those experiences can serve to unite, or further fragment. If we have a recession or a depression then how do people, including the disseminators of information/propaganda respond? They care about ratings more than the state of the union.

1. The R's in power will blame the fear of higher corporate taxes (or actual higher taxes -- if we make it that far) for our collapse. The R’s will blame too much governmental intervention and bailing out stupid people’s debts.

2. The D's in power will blame the cost of the war, and will create additional conspiracies against the middle class.

Both blame games are rooted in truth, but where the hell is a plan to keep control of spending by anyone? I personally think that our economy is going to go down -- because of what both parties have done, and plan to do. Now, what I see is both parties attempting to spend ourselves out of this funk. This is short-sighted, makes the problem worse and is a last ditch shot in the arm with barrowed money, (additional virus, -- not a cure) and when the spending is done we have not gained additional capacity, or further taxes through investment IN OUR ECONOMY. We are going to barrow from the Chinese to buy from the Chinese?

So with the Internet and its fabrications that become truth through repetition, and with talk radio, and with the media robots forced to crank out "news" 24 hours per day -- I am more convinced than ever that we will be further fragmented, and hate each other even more -- rather than being drawn together. We will be more prone to think that HIV was created by the government, that levies and buildings are brought down on purpose, and that Obama is the anti-Christ.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What nobody's talking about in regards to the housing crisis and the general middle-class recession is how work visas and illegal immigration have dropped the working wage as the cost of living has gone up considerably.

International trade laws have brought the middle class standard of living down, and the bottom has yet to fall out. Get ready.

[orinjkrush]

its just human nature for people to think more about their jobs then their country. (yeah i said it) career politicians of all persuasion are the problem. representative government should never have career politicians. they care more about their jobs and their meal tickets (the RNC and DNC) than any patriotic stirrings. (hence never ending campaigns.) "public service"? we all know that's a joke. the only folks doing public service are the grunts in the military and those who join the peace corps or forestry service or the like. politicians MUST have term limits. we need to clear all of them out. Clintons? OUT. Bushes? OUT Kennedys OUT. matter of fact, more often than not if you can recognize the name DON'T VOTE FOR THEM. i would rather have a bunch of farmers, teachers, Realtors, truck drivers in Congress and the supreme court and the executive branch than these hacks. at least we would have some common sense back. ok, rant over.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by orinjkrush

its just human nature for people to think more about their jobs then their country. (yeah i said it) career politicians of all persuasion are the problem. representative government should never have career politicians. they care more about their jobs and their meal tickets (the RNC and DNC) than any patriotic stirrings. (hence never ending campaigns.) "public service"? we all know that's a joke. the only folks doing public service are the grunts in the military and those who join the peace corps or forestry service or the like. politicians MUST have term limits. we need to clear all of them out. Clintons? OUT. Bushes? OUT Kennedys OUT. matter of fact, more often than not if you can recognize the name DON'T VOTE FOR THEM. i would rather have a bunch of farmers, teachers, Realtors, truck drivers in Congress and the supreme court and the executive branch than these hacks. at least we would have some common sense back. ok, rant over.

Career politicians are a problem certainly.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by orinjkrush

its just human nature for people to think more about their jobs then their country. (yeah i said it) career politicians of all persuasion are the problem. representative government should never have career politicians. they care more about their jobs and their meal tickets (the RNC and DNC) than any patriotic stirrings. (hence never ending campaigns.) "public service"? we all know that's a joke. the only folks doing public service are the grunts in the military and those who join the peace corps or forestry service or the like. politicians MUST have term limits. we need to clear all of them out. Clintons? OUT. Bushes? OUT Kennedys OUT. matter of fact, more often than not if you can recognize the name DON'T VOTE FOR THEM. i would rather have a bunch of farmers, teachers, Realtors, truck drivers in Congress and the supreme court and the executive branch than these hacks. at least we would have some common sense back. ok, rant over.

Damn dude , the beginning and the end of the political forum nothing else needs to be said ....

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by angryllama

What nobody's talking about in regards to the housing crisis and the general middle-class recession is how work visas and illegal immigration have dropped the working wage as the cost of living has gone up considerably.

Provide some evidence for your assertion.

Originally Posted by angryllama

International trade laws have brought the middle class standard of living down, and the bottom has yet to fall out. Get ready.

You channeling baja now?

Economic populism is for ****heads.

[Bob]

Damn straight ...

"Free trade" doesnt seem to cut both ways... It means we take their crap produced by slave labor, save a nickle, sell our souls, and ship our jobs over-seas. Heck, we cant even sell apples to Japan without being taxed unfairly. I am not a fan of Huckaberry, but I did like his mirior tax policy idea with countries. Basicly whatever you do in taxing us, we do to you. There are exceptions I am sure, but over-all we have traded our indpendence and capasity to create and build things of intrinsic value for plastic, lead covered toys at Wal Mart.

But dont worry bro, when we get into a real conflict where we need to make tanks etc, we can just have the Chinese make it for us -- unless heaven forbid we have a conflict with someone, they like more than us -- like Iran, or Russia.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Provide some evidence for your assertion.

Look into the H1B visas, dude. Check and see how many of them we have approved through congress. Every one of them is putting an american citizen white-collar worker out of work and simultaneously dropping the wages of the skilled (educated) workers in tech and sciences around the country. The wages drop by 67% or more in some of the respective fields.

These are educated, debt-laden Americans with mortgages, car loans, credit debt and any manner of commitment to the banking industry. It isnt any wonder why the bottom is falling out of the middle class from the upper-mid to the lower-mid and beyond.

Wonder why the govt is bailing out the credit industry or letting them take advantage of americans falling into bankruptcy? Its because they approved a means to pull the rug out from under them.

From the outside it looks as though the top 1% is getting prepared to skip town and leave Americans in the lurch with nothing.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Look into the H1B visas, dude. Check and see how many of them we have approved through congress. Every one of them is putting an american citizen white-collar worker out of work and simultaneously dropping the wages of the skilled (educated) workers in tech and sciences around the country. The wages drop by 67% or more in some of the respective fields.

Where's your data?

If anything, it's educated non-Americans who are giving this country any chance of staying ahead in the technology game. Lord knows far too few Americans have enough science/engineering/technology education and skills to keep up with the demand.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Where's your data?

If anything, it's educated non-Americans who are giving this country any chance of staying ahead in the technology game. Lord knows far too few Americans have enough science/engineering/technology education and skills to keep up with the demand.

Where's your data?

There are too many americans in the work force in those industries from the dot-com boom...that's the problem. There are too many of them and they worked at a rate that required a standard working wage that ate into the salaries of the big guys when things got tough.

So what's the solution? PAC your way into the pockets of politicians and get boatloads of barely-skilled workers in to take their place, make one of the americans stay on to work as an admin to them for a third of the salary, and have the other american workers teach the H1B's the job for a month before they are severed without compensation.

I live in the second-largest tech community in America and saw it happen first hand here. I suggest doing a little reading. You might be better served by it in this discussion...you might have a better perspective on the deal. Not that your position will change, because you are a bottom-line guy, but at least you will know what you are discussing.

[Los Broncos]

My grandfather told that hell is right here on earth, feels that way.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Lynch Mob72

My grandfather told that hell is right here on earth, feels that way.

It is, it depends on which one you choose (heaven/hell). As you can see, we are still kids fighting - so don't hold your breath for the good one.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by angryllama

Where's your data?

You made some specific claims; back them up.

Originally Posted by angryllama

There are too many americans in the work force in those industries from the dot-com boom...that's the problem. There are too many of them and they worked at a rate that required a standard working wage that ate into the salaries of the big guys when things got tough.

Too many Americans in high-tech fields. Interesting take. Care to prove it?

Perhaps during the dotcom bubble these guys were overpaid, now their wages are at more reasonable levels, but you blame the foreigners. Why?

Originally Posted by angryllama

So what's the solution? PAC your way into the pockets of politicians and get boatloads of barely-skilled workers in to take their place, make one of the americans stay on to work as an admin to them for a third of the salary, and have the other american workers teach the H1B's the job for a month before they are severed without compensation.

If your job takes only a month for someone else "barely-skilled" to learn, then you need to upgrade your skills. Seriously. Besides, if you want the right to leave a job whenever it suits you, then your employer needs to have the right to can you as well - and there's always the option of starting your own company.

Show me where this paper

http://www.nber.org/papers/w12085

is wrong.

Originally Posted by angryllama

I live in the second-largest tech community in America and saw it happen first hand here. I suggest doing a little reading. You might be better served by it in this discussion...you might have a better perspective on the deal. Not that your position will change, because you are a bottom-line guy, but at least you will know what you are discussing.

The US is in a global competition with other nations for skilled H-1B-type workers. Telling them to **** off to "save" American jobs would be stupid.

[Los Broncos]

Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis

It is, it depends on which one you choose (heaven/hell). As you can see, we are still kids fighting - so don't hold your breath for the good one.

Here in SoCal is seems like nothing but hate.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Lynch Mob72

Here in SoCal is seems like nothing but hate.

Not just there man....not just there.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by W*GS

The US is in a global competition with other nations for skilled H-1B-type workers. Telling them to **** off to "save" American jobs would be stupid.

That's precisely the problem.

See, you are missing out on what a nation is. Maybe its because you were an outcast as a child or something, I dont know. A nation is a conglomerate of individuals. Without a healthy framework that holds the network together, a nation becomes a slave state. The further you alienate your citizens by spitting in their face and expecting them to grovel back to you, the more you dissolve that network. The less likely they become to commit themselves to the health of the nation. The less likely they become to die for it.

If we are a nation, we are individuals somewhat committed to the greater cause.

It does the nation no good to turn its back on its own people for a cheap quickie with non-citizens so that the top 1% can keep up with the Saudis.

[kappys]

Originally Posted by angryllama

That's precisely the problem.

See, you are missing out on what a nation is. Maybe its because you were an outcast as a child or something, I dont know. A nation is a conglomerate of individuals. Without a healthy framework that holds the network together, a nation becomes a slave state. The further you alienate your citizens by spitting in their face and expecting them to grovel back to you, the more you dissolve that network. The less likely they become to commit themselves to the health of the nation. The less likely they become to die for it.

If we are a nation, we are individuals somewhat committed to the greater cause.

It does the nation no good to turn its back on its own people for a cheap quickie with non-citizens so that the top 1% can keep up with the Saudis.

Most immigrants to the United States come to see themselves as Americans. If not them then their children definetely do, so why the hostility?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by kappys

Most immigrants to the United States come to see themselves as Americans. If not them then their children definetely do, so why the hostility?

Were not talking about immigrants, but visa workers.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by angryllama

From the outside it looks as though the top 1% is getting prepared to skip town and leave Americans in the lurch with nothing.

This is exactly what many of us warned would happen if Bush was "elected."

How many times did I personally point out the BushCo reverse Robin Hood swindle that was taking place right under our collective noses - only to be dismissed as a "Bush basher?"

[BroncoBuff]

Suzy Ormann said "the worst is over" tonight on Larry King.

I'm satisfied.

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by angryllama

From the outside it looks as though the top 1% is getting prepared to skip town and leave Americans in the lurch with nothing.

Rep that. And this administration gassed up, tuned up and detailed the getaway car.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Suzy Ormann said "the worst is over" tonight on Larry King.

I'm satisfied.

Good one.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by angryllama

That's precisely the problem.

Appeals to collectivism, the nationalist variant, aren't very impressive.

Originally Posted by angryllama

See, you are missing out on what a nation is. Maybe its because you were an outcast as a child or something, I dont know. A nation is a conglomerate of individuals. Without a healthy framework that holds the network together, a nation becomes a slave state. The further you alienate your citizens by spitting in their face and expecting them to grovel back to you, the more you dissolve that network. The less likely they become to commit themselves to the health of the nation. The less likely they become to die for it.

I see. Since some people lost their jobs to people you don't believe deserved them, the US as a whole is going into the ****ter. Thank goodness buggy makers, who made the same argument, didn't carry the day, eh?

Oh, and the point of war isn't to die for your country, it's to make the other bastard die for his.

Originally Posted by angryllama

If we are a nation, we are individuals somewhat committed to the greater cause.

Yep - freedom and liberty. The State is merely a tool toward that end, not that we individuals are tools towards the preservation of the State.

Originally Posted by angryllama

It does the nation no good to turn its back on its own people for a cheap quickie with non-citizens so that the top 1% can keep up with the Saudis.

It doesn't do anyone any good to have one (small) set of Americans privileged to have their jobs protected, when everyone else has to compete for theirs.

I'll clue you in - have your skill set so powerful and in demand that you can turn the tables on your employers. They should beg you to work for them - rather than being able to hire "barely skilled" foreigners who, after a mere month, can step in and take over your job.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bob

Americans are divided, and pitted against each other endlessly -- and we think it can last forever without dire consequences?

I still believe that what unites Americans is much greater than what divides us, and as I see very bad times coming -- those experiences can serve to unite, or further fragment. If we have a recession or a depression then how do people, including the disseminators of information/propaganda respond? They care about ratings more than the state of the union.

1. The R's in power will blame the fear of higher corporate taxes (or actual higher taxes -- if we make it that far) for our collapse. The R’s will blame too much governmental intervention and bailing out stupid people’s debts.

2. The D's in power will blame the cost of the war, and will create additional conspiracies against the middle class.

Both blame games are rooted in truth, but where the hell is a plan to keep control of spending by anyone? I personally think that our economy is going to go down -- because of what both parties have done, and plan to do. Now, what I see is both parties attempting to spend ourselves out of this funk. This is short-sighted, makes the problem worse and is a last ditch shot in the arm with barrowed money, (additional virus, -- not a cure) and when the spending is done we have not gained additional capacity, or further taxes through investment IN OUR ECONOMY. We are going to barrow from the Chinese to buy from the Chinese?

So with the Internet and its fabrications that become truth through repetition, and with talk radio, and with the media robots forced to crank out "news" 24 hours per day -- I am more convinced than ever that we will be further fragmented, and hate each other even more -- rather than being drawn together. We will be more prone to think that HIV was created by the government, that levies and buildings are brought down on purpose, and that Obama is the anti-Christ.

we been divided since the get go ...... there was those that wanted to stay loyal to the king , then we had a civil war north and south , civil rights movement of the 60's , the hippies and peace movement , 70's and the counter culture ,80's and the republican movement , destroying the middle class ........ Welcome to America .... we can have these differences without killing each other ( well for the most part )

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by W*GS

I'll clue you in - have your skill set so powerful and in demand that you can turn the tables on your employers. They should beg you to work for them - rather than being able to hire "barely skilled" foreigners who, after a mere month, can step in and take over your job.

Fortunately, I work in a field where the individuals have such a high education demand that few see their way into the workplace, and I can dictate terms in my own work and employ others in the process.

I'm still of the school that an employer has a responsibility to see that his employees are treated in a respectful manner, and that their efforts for the common good are rewarded with more than the bare minimum.

It is the employer, not the government, who is to look after workers.

This is what made America strong through the latter end of the industrial revolution and made it the industrial power that it once was.

I dont think that you are in a position to "clue" anybody in. Any idiot knows what the marketplace looks like...your not shedding any light on anything but your own selfish backside.