Dt's Not worth it?

[rugbythug]

As my draft board begins to take shape, and the many experts and prognosticators begin to release their own mock drafts, it looks like there is the potential for three defensive tackles to be taken in the first round of this year's draft, and as many as six on Day 1 (which now only includes two rounds).

That's about par for the course. There have been at least three first-round defensive tackles in three of the last four years. What is a little different about this group is that two players, LSU's Glenn Dorsey and USC's Sedrick Ellis, are slated as top-10 picks. Two defensive tackles haven't been taken that high since 2003, when Dewayne Robertson went fourth overall and Johnathan Sullivan was taken two picks later.

Carucci's mock draft
Here is where Vic Carucci has top defensive tackles going in his latest mock draft:

3. Atlanta Falcons: Glenn Dorsey -- The Falcons need a quarterback, but this seems far too high to select anyone at the position in this draft. Dorsey's dominance should go a long way in allowing Mike Smith's defense-first mentality take hold.

9. Cincinnati Bengals: Sedrick Ellis -- Ellis adds a big, strong, athletic force that the middle of the Bengals' defense needs.
Complete mock draft ... In the first 10 picks of the draft there are some real impact players who will make an immediate contribution in many cases -- players who can be productive right away if your team is in a 4-3 defense. Dorsey and Ellis stand out among this year's prospects. A quick look at the numbers shows that their production in college has been impressive in some ways, such as penetrating gaps, being disruptive and making tackles.

Both men had more than 140 tackles and more than 28 tackles for loss. But can they rush the passer well enough at where they stand in the draft to be considered every-down players? These two men can, but the same cannot definitively be said for the rest of the draft class.

When I think of impact defensive tackles, I think of guys who can penetrate in a one-gap system and get to the quarterback using quickness and burst, or big-bodied guys who can collapse the pocket from the interior and run a blocker back into his passer. Guys such as Warren Sapp, Russell Maryland, Jerome Brown, Cortez Kennedy, Bryant Young, and even Tommie Harris in more recent years, are examples of top level defensive tackles. These are players who could stand up to the run and fill gaps, but could also make the big play on third down and put the quarterback on his back.

My broadcast partner on Sirius radio, Tim Ryan, was a defensive tackle taken out of USC in the third round of the 1990 draft. He entered the NFL with 34 career sacks and 59 tackles for loss. Dorsey (13 sacks, 27 tackles for loss) and Ellis (17½, 28½) don't have that many career sacks or tackles for loss combined. The top defensive linemen in this year's draft don't have as many sacks as some third-round defensive tackles will.

Other top DT prospects such as Pat Sims (7½) of Auburn and North Carolina's Kentwan Balmer (7) don't even have double-digit sack numbers for their careers. There aren't many who do.

Lionel Dotson of Arizona and Maryland's Dre Moore recorded 10½ sacks in their college careers, and after watching the Senior Bowl practices, I like Notre Dame's Trevor Laws and his uncanny ability to make plays, which led to 12 career sacks. Frank Okam of Texas and Keilen Dykes of West Virginia have 10 each to their credit, but they both needed over 38 career starts to do it.

Obviously, I'm aware that sacks is not the only statistic used to measure success for defensive linemen, and it's not even the most important stat for defensive tackles. However, in today's NFL, where the spread offense and the read-and-react nature of the passing game has become the standard, teams have to be thinking about more ways to get to the quarterback.

For example, the Colts rush the passer on every play. Dwight Freeney once said to me, "We tackle the run on the way to the quarterback." That means putting more than one pass rusher on the field on third downs and in obvious passing situations.

Look at what the New York Giants did to the vaunted Patriots air attack in the Super Bowl. They were able to put Tom Brady on the ground with an inside rush from Justin Tuck. New England players admitted after the game that their first order of business on the offensive line was to slow Tuck, which left Matt Light to deal with Osi Umenyiora on his own, and gave Michael Strahan the opportunity to rush against single blocks all day. The presence of that inside rush is what opened up the floodgates for the Giants defense.

Mike Mayock's top 5 DTs:
Rank Player College
1. Sedrick Ellis USC
2. Glenn Dorsey LSU
3. Kentwan Balmer North Carolina
4. Trevor Laws Notre Dame
5. Dre Moore Maryland
» Mayock's draft prospect rankings
Now here's the twist on this whole thing. Tuck's natural position is defensive end. His size and strength, and his versatility as a pass rusher, make him a viable option inside.

So the question for NFL teams is, do you spend the high draft pick on a top-10 DT like Dorsey or Ellis, or do you try to drop down in the first round and take a player like Florida DE Derrick Harvey (20½ sacks), who weighed in at the combine in the 275-pound range, and build a front like the Giants or Colts? Harvey compares favorably to Tuck, with good size and the frame to add more bulk without sacrificing the initial burst and quickness that has been the key to his pass-rushing success.

In Round 2, a team could pick up a player like Lawrence Jackson, who recorded 30½ sacks at USC, but uses his hands well and has shown an ability to get inside penetration and stack and control the isolated blocker. He has the frame to add bulk, and could be a situational pass rusher inside for a 4-3 team.

Before taking a big chunk of that rookie cap for a big-name defensive tackle, teams will have to be aware of what it is they are really looking for. Atlanta, Cincinnati, Denver, Indianapolis, and New Orleans all need inside help on the defensive line, but there are only two elite tackles.

Getting a big run stuffer in the later rounds so your defense can get to passing situations and have your hybrid tackle ready to play may be the way to go.

[rugbythug]

I think we need to go look at Harvey. If both the DT's are gone I think Harvey will give us Flexibility and Pass Rush on the DL. This also lets us exploit the depth at OL.

[peacepipe]

I don't want to see Denver reaching to pick a DT just for the sake of it.

[Broncojef]

Originally Posted by peacepipe

I don't want to see Denver reaching to pick a DT just for the sake of it.

I don't either and unfortunately Ellis and Dorsey will be outside our range. 12 is just an awkward spot. I was hoping for Clady for weeks and now he seems outside our pick as well so I'm going to just stop hoping at this point. I don't know alot about Moore and Laws yet from what I've heard they would be very intriguing towards the top of the second and with our second rounder. Good article/post rugby.

[LonghornBronco]

Didn't we do something similar with Treavor Price took a DE and converted him to a DT, or was it the other way around?

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'm not wild about any of these guys. I'd take Okram if he were there in the 3rd (do we even have a 3rd?) but I'm leery of even Sedrick Ellis, who might be a product of having lot of talent around him, plus he's had a bad knee. Laws looks like an overachiever type...he might be a good NFL player or he might bust due to his lack of athleticism. Okram's reported lazy but he's huge...sound familiar? Gimme a PLAYER first and foremost in the top two rounds. Either Clady or Williams in the 1st, maybe Jerrod Mayo in the 2nd or possibly Conner if he's still there.

[Rohirrim]

That's a very well thought out take, RT. Rep. Something to chew on, for sure. I've watched quite a few USC games. Ellis got double teamed a lot. Could that also be a factor in Jackson's numbers? It's like you said about the Giants, it's the "whole" that you're after, not just the parts.

[socalorado]

I dont know of any problems with Ellis' knees. Last i heard he was totally healthy, and never had a knee issue.

BUT Dorsey has some knee issues, and i've heard he may fall because of it!

Glenn Dorsey, LSU
Height: 6-1. Weight: 297.
Projected 40 Time: 5.12.
Combine 40 Time: Did not run.
Benchx225: . Vertical .
Projected Round: Top 10 Pick.
Glenn Dorsey did not work out. In fact, he was rushed to the hospital so doctors could perform tests on his knees. This isn't anything new. This didn't just happen. Dorsey has had knee problems the past two years. I know he managed to play through the pain, but who's to say his knees won't get any worse? If you're a team in the top five, and you're thinking about taking Dorsey, and two or three other prospects, the former's knees will probably be the tie-breaker. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dorsey dropped all the way down to No. 9. CIN.

What about this guy??

Dre Moore, Maryland
Height: 6-4. Weight: 305.
Projected 40 Time: 4.82.
Combine 40 Time: 4.88.
Benchx225: 31. Vertical .
Projected Round: 2.
Dre Moore was the talk of the combine at defensive tackle, as his blazing 40 (4.88) was very impressive, considering his 305-pound frame. Thirty-one reps of 225 pounds wasn't too shabby either.

Moore played out of his mind against West Virginia. Steve Slaton simply couldn't run in Moore's direction, as the senior defensive tackle was in the Mountaineers' backfield the majority of the plays. He really improved his draft stock.

That 4.82 is not a misprint. Moore, who excels at stopping the run and getting to the quarterback, is a workout warrior. He'll bench 225 pounds at least 30 times. He has also notched a 34-inch vertical in the past.

Man, DEN needs to get another 2nd rounder somehow! Or at least get back a 3rd.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by socalorado

I dont know of any problems with Ellis' knees. Last i heard he was totally healthy, and never had a knee issue.

BUT Dorsey has some knee issues, and i've heard he may fall because of it!

Glenn Dorsey, LSU
Height: 6-1. Weight: 297.
Projected 40 Time: 5.12.
Combine 40 Time: Did not run.
Benchx225: . Vertical .
Projected Round: Top 10 Pick.
Glenn Dorsey did not work out. In fact, he was rushed to the hospital so doctors could perform tests on his knees. This isn't anything new. This didn't just happen. Dorsey has had knee problems the past two years. I know he managed to play through the pain, but who's to say his knees won't get any worse? If you're a team in the top five, and you're thinking about taking Dorsey, and two or three other prospects, the former's knees will probably be the tie-breaker. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Dorsey dropped all the way down to No. 9. CIN.

What about this guy??

Dre Moore, Maryland
Height: 6-4. Weight: 305.
Projected 40 Time: 4.82.
Combine 40 Time: 4.88.
Benchx225: 31. Vertical .
Projected Round: 2.
Dre Moore was the talk of the combine at defensive tackle, as his blazing 40 (4.88) was very impressive, considering his 305-pound frame. Thirty-one reps of 225 pounds wasn't too shabby either.

Moore played out of his mind against West Virginia. Steve Slaton simply couldn't run in Moore's direction, as the senior defensive tackle was in the Mountaineers' backfield the majority of the plays. He really improved his draft stock.

That 4.82 is not a misprint. Moore, who excels at stopping the run and getting to the quarterback, is a workout warrior. He'll bench 225 pounds at least 30 times. He has also notched a 34-inch vertical in the past.

Man, DEN needs to get another 2nd rounder somehow! Or at least get back a 3rd.

Moore is a physical specimen, but mentally he struggles. That is the biggest component for DT's at the NFL level and Why Dominant DT's in college "bust" so much at the next level. Moore is easily one of the best physical DT's out there, but his play does not show he knows HOW to use those attributes. As I have said before, mental ability seperates the good from the Great and the average from the "busts".

Moore never was a consistent player, just like ALL of the Texas DL from the last 4 years who have had all the hype and done nothing in the NFL.

Dorsey and Ellis have been consistent, if not very good, through all of their career. What is the biggest risk is drafting DL with Potential, who never figured it out in college. It just does not get easier in the NFL, it gets 3 times harder mentally and physically.

What you can do is find DL role players like Kirwan says in his above article. Find some monster run stuffers in the middle of the draft and then get some DE/DT tweeners to rush the passer. The problem I have had with DEN is they have too many of these types of players, and not one legitimate every down DL. Dumervil is close, but then DEN has to play an Aggressive one gap defense to accomodate his run skillset. The major problem with that is they have no interior one gap penetrators to play UT, and no one wiht the skillset at NT to play that way.

This DL is a collection of pieces that do not make a puzzle. And the way they do not compliment each other shows on the field. Until they stick with a scheme and draft players that fit that, instead of changing schemes every year to fit the MARGINAL talent on the DL, this is going to be a profound problem.

[Killericon]

If there's no draft depth at DT, we need to trade for DeWayne Robertson. We NEED a Defensive Tackle.

[socalorado]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

Moore is a physical specimen, but mentally he struggles. That is the biggest component for DT's at the NFL level and Why Dominate DT's in college "bust" so much at the next level. Moore is easily one of the best physical DT's out there, but his play does not show he knows HOW to use those attributes. As I have said before, mental ability seperates the good from the Great and the average from the "busts".

Moore never was a consistent player, just like ALL of the Texas DL from the last 4 years who have had all the hype and done nothing in the NFL.

Dorsey and Ellis have been consistent, if not very good, through all of their career. What is the biggest risk is drafting DL with Potential, who never figured it out in college. It just does not get easier in the NFL, it gets 3 times harder mentally and physically.

What you can do is find DL role players like Kirwan says in his above article. Find some monster run stuffers in the middle of the draft and then get some DE/DT tweeners to rush the passer. The problem I have had with DEN is they have too many of these types of players, and not one legitimate every down DL. Dumervil is close, but then DEN has to play an Aggressive one gap defense to accomodate his run skillset. The major problem with that is they have no interior one gap penetrators to play UT, and no one wiht the skillset at NT to play that way.

This DL is a collection of pieces that do not make a puzzle. And the way they do not compliment each other shows on the field. Until they stick with a scheme and draft players that fit that, instead of changing schemes every year to fit the MARGINAL talent on the DL, this is going to be a profound problem.

I agree basically, unfortunately for DEN, they dont have the luxury of playing games with this position anymore. Its "bone dry" at DT.
Either they trade up (yeah, right) or they suck it up, and take the best DT available with the 2nd or 3rd rounder.(i know DEN doesnt have a 3rd) I mean, eventually they will have to just face facts and take a guy, so its really a mute point.
They are going to have to go with one of these guys, Trevor Laws or Pat Sims or Balmer, or....whoever! But they need depth, and they need a starter, so its now or never!
It just seems like alot of posters are really critical of the DT position, but of all the teams in the NFL, DEN isnt really in a position to be critical, theyre screwed!
So whats the alternative? Robertson?

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by socalorado

I dont know of any problems with Ellis' knees. Last i heard he was totally healthy, and never had a knee issue.

He had arthroscopic knee surgery (ligament) in 2006.

[socalorado]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

He had arthroscopic knee surgery (ligament) in 2006.

He tore cartilage in his right knee prior to the Nebraska game and had arthroscopic surgery, sidelining him for 3 games.
Big deal. He doesnt have any problems with his knees, hes totally healthy and ready to play right now.
You made it sound like he has some recurring, major issues that are going to cause him to fall in the draft or something.
Hes had a bad knee?!?!?! Every guy playing football has had a "bad knee" at one time or another!

Ellis is a "slam dunk" and wont make it past #5 in the draft. His knee is fine.
Sedrick Ellis, USC
Height: 6-0. Weight: 309.
Projected 40 Time: 4.83.
Combine 40 Time: 5.24.
Benchx225: 34. Vertical 26.5.
Projected Round: Top 5 Pick.
Ellis was a man amongst boys at the Senior Bowl, effortlessly pushing the opposing offensive line around as if they were small children. Ellis was simply unblockable. It wouldn't surprise me if the Dolphins or Rams took him first or second.
Ellis has dominated the Senior Bowl practices and has established himself as a top-five pick.

A very quick defensive tackle who loves getting to the quarterback. Had 4.5 sacks in each of the previous two seasons.

[mattob14]

Originally Posted by Mediator12

What you can do is find DL role players like Kirwan says in his above article. Find some monster run stuffers in the middle of the draft and then get some DE/DT tweeners to rush the passer. The problem I have had with DEN is they have too many of these types of players, and not one legitimate every down DL. Dumervil is close, but then DEN has to play an Aggressive one gap defense to accomodate his run skillset. The major problem with that is they have no interior one gap penetrators to play UT, and no one wiht the skillset at NT to play that way.

This DL is a collection of pieces that do not make a puzzle. And the way they do not compliment each other shows on the field. Until they stick with a scheme and draft players that fit that, instead of changing schemes every year to fit the MARGINAL talent on the DL, this is going to be a profound problem.

Med, I know you're against the mixing and matching, but what about a guy like Phillip Merling? His stock has dropped based on his hernia surgery and inability to work out, but he's intriguing in the late-1st if we move down. He can play end in the base set and provide solid run defense, then move to DT on passing downs. He may not be an every-down DT, but he'd be an every-down DL and could make a solid impact.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by mattob14

Med, I know you're against the mixing and matching, but what about a guy like Phillip Merling? His stock has dropped based on his hernia surgery and inability to work out, but he's intriguing in the late-1st if we move down. He can play end in the base set and provide solid run defense, then move to DT on passing downs. He may not be an every-down DT, but he'd be an every-down DL and could make a solid impact.

All depends on the scheme Slowik wants to run. He has all kinds of pieces, but what does he want to do with them. The Offseason should lend us some clues. One thing is for sure, they Need an Elite DL.

[TheChamp24]

Originally Posted by socalorado

Ellis is a "slam dunk" and wont make it past #5 in the draft. His knee is fine.

lol, nobody is a "slam dunk". Ellis and Dorsey will probably both struggle a lot this year, and people will label them as "busts", but then 1 will probably come back in 2009 and tear it up, while the other performs like an average DT.

I think we need to draft a DT to add depth and get some playing time, but we also need to sign a vet DT.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by socalorado

He tore cartilage in his right knee prior to the Nebraska game and had arthroscopic surgery, sidelining him for 3 games.
Big deal. He doesnt have any problems with his knees, hes totally healthy and ready to play right now.
You made it sound like he has some recurring, major issues that are going to cause him to fall in the draft or something.
Hes had a bad knee?!?!?! Every guy playing football has had a "bad knee" at one time or another!

Ellis is a "slam dunk" and wont make it past #5 in the draft. His knee is fine.
Sedrick Ellis, USC
Height: 6-0. Weight: 309.
Projected 40 Time: 4.83.
Combine 40 Time: 5.24.
Benchx225: 34. Vertical 26.5.
Projected Round: Top 5 Pick.
Ellis was a man amongst boys at the Senior Bowl, effortlessly pushing the opposing offensive line around as if they were small children. Ellis was simply unblockable. It wouldn't surprise me if the Dolphins or Rams took him first or second.
Ellis has dominated the Senior Bowl practices and has established himself as a top-five pick.

A very quick defensive tackle who loves getting to the quarterback. Had 4.5 sacks in each of the previous two seasons.

Who are you preaching to? I simply stated the fact that he'd had knee surgery, nothing more. As for whether he's going to to be great at the next level or not, time will tell. The draft has highly rated linemen every year who don't do much in the NFL. I'd take the guy at #12 without hesitation if he were there and I might even trade up a couple spots for him but he's no sure thing and neither is Dorsey. At the end of the day I'd rather have Cutler's blind side OT protection instead.

[socalorado]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

Who are you preaching to? I simply stated the fact that he'd had knee surgery, nothing more. As for whether he's going to to be great at the next level or not, time will tell. The draft has highly rated linemen every year who don't do much in the NFL. I'd take the guy at #12 without hesitation if he were there and I might even trade up a couple spots for him but he's no sure thing and neither is Dorsey. At the end of the day I'd rather have Cutler's blind side OT protection instead.

OK cool, me too. I would also rather have a OT with #12 as well.
I just think Ellis will be a very good player as opposed to Dorsey.

[crowebomber]

I don't see us going with DT at 12 after the big two are gone in the top 10. We could trade down, or I wouldn't mind us picking up a 2nd tier guy with some potential in the later rounds.

I'm a sucker for looking for the small college sleepers (hey, Brandon Marshall and Shannon Sharpe worked out OK), so I was checking out this kid from Hampton. Looks like he's got the size and athleticism, plus he's produced (at Hampton, mind you, but he's been getting it done). He actually ended up running a sub 5 second 40 at the combine.


2008 NFL Draft Prospect - Scouting Report
Kendall Langford, a great athlete, lettered in tack and field, football and basketball in high school. He played in all of the team's 12 games, starting three, as a true freshman in 2004 where he recorded 44 tackles (11.5 for loss), with six sacks. Starting all 12 games in 2005, Langford made 65 tackles, with 15.5 for loss and four and a half sacks. He was voted to the All Mid Eastern American Conference first team. In 2006, he repeated the feat. Again, he started all 12 games making 55 tackles, 15.5 for loss and a personal high, eight sacks. He was named team captain prior to the 2007 season and played in 11 games, while recording 72 tackles (13.5 of them for loss) and recorded six sacks. He has a real size and bulk combination and was a man against child while playing at Hampton. Langford is an experienced three years starter who is an excellent athlete with long arms. Versatile, Langford could play defensive end in a 3-4 alignment or any position along the line on a 4-3 system, because he is very strong at the point and will hold his own at the outside. He is an instinctive player, moving very well through traffic for a man of his size. He is also a very disciplined player who will play hurt, but he needs to learn to bend his knees better. Langford also lack bursts (5.09-40) and struggles sometimes shedding blockers, so his level of competition is a concern here. Langford is the kind of prospect that could move up quickly on draft boards. He is a hard working player who is well built and posses the necessary attributes to excel at the next level. But, he needs more coaching and his technique leaves a lot to be desire;but overall, he is an exceptional talent. If he had played in a BCS conference, he would probably be considered a first or second round player. He could start in the NFL within two years, that's how talented he is.