RB vs. Oline

[Tombstone RJ]

Does anyone know how many of the Viking's olinemen made the pro-bowl? I've gone to NFL.com and I didn't see any Vikings olinemen in the pro-bowl. I could be wrong, however.

I did see Adrian Peterson in the pro-bowl. He looked pretty good too.

[400HZ]

Hutchinson and Birk both made it. I think McKinney was an alternate.

[Tombstone RJ]

It's hard to know if these olinemen made the pro-bowl because of Peterson's great rookie season. I wonder if a great RB makes the oline look that much better.

Anyone know how many Vikings olinemen made the pro-bowl in 2006-07?

[chaz]

everyone knows the vikings have an all-world o-line, especially the left side(Birk, Hutch, McKinney). No one can even think AP just made them look good.

[chaz]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

Anyone know how many Vikings olinemen made the pro-bowl in 2006-07?

Birk and Hutch both made it in '07...and that was with chester taylor at RB and Brad Johnson/Tarvaris Jackson at QB

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by chaz

everyone knows the vikings have an all-world o-line, especially the left side(Birk, Hutch, McKinney). No one can even think AP just made them look good.

I didn't know the Vikings had an "all-world o-line..." but I'll take your word for it. The only thing I know about the Vikings Oline is that Zimm came from the Vikings.

I'm trying to make a correlation between a great RB and a great Oline. I think the two feed off each other. I don't necessarily think a great oline means a great running game (certainly Chestor Taylor proves that). However a great RB makes an oline perform that much better (Barry Sanders had a lousey oline but still produced).

[montrose]

I'd certainly love a great back and O-Line, but if made to choose - O-Line without question. In my opinion, and that of most NFL personnel guys according to Pat Kirwan, the order of importance in building a team is QB, OL, DL, CB, WR, LB, RB, S.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by montrose

I'd certainly love a great back and O-Line, but if made to choose - O-Line without question. In my opinion, and that of most NFL personnel guys according to Pat Kirwan, the order of importance in building a team is QB, OL, DL, CB, WR, LB, RB, S.

The Broncos don't need to "build a team." My point is simple: Yes, the oline needs improvement. I'v never denied that. However, I do think it is servicable. It needs to be tweaked, that is all.

Peeps on this board have been b****ing and moaning about the oline since TD went down. Yet, the Broncos still keep running the ball well.

My contention is that if the Broncos got that home run hitter at RB, the oline problems would be greatly reduced.

Besides, it's not like the Broncos have ignored the oline the last 5 years or so. They have drafted olinemen.

[ShutDownPoster]

Vikings past OT's: Zimm, Steussie, Stringer....quite impressive.

[montrose]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

The Broncos don't need to "build a team." My point is simple: Yes, the oline needs improvement. I'v never denied that. However, I do think it is servicable. It needs to be tweaked, that is all.

Peeps on this board have been b****ing and moaning about the oline since TD went down. Yet, the Broncos still keep running the ball well.

My contention is that if the Broncos got that home run hitter at RB, the oline problems would be greatly reduced.

Besides, it's not like the Broncos have ignored the oline the last 5 years or so. They have drafted olinemen.

In terms of the running game, one majorly overlooked aspect has been the Broncos failure to put a true blocking FB in the backfield since Griffith's retirement. Looking back to the TD days, a majority of his runs were sprung of Griffith's blocks.

My main frustration with the Broncos OL has been the pass protection, specifically since the organization's greatest asset at the moment is their Quarterback. The second Cutler was drafted, every effort should have been made into building a great wall of protection in front of him. Instead, the Broncos have stayed with the same OL prototype that was used in Plummer's tenure here. The difference being that Plummer's game focused so much on mobility he was able to make up for some of the pass blocking deficiencies. And even then so, those deficiencies were the cause for many of the losses over the past few years, particularly to the Colts and Steelers in the playoffs.

In addition, and even in Plummer's winning seasons here, the Broncos have had a huge difficulty coming from behind since the switch to a smaller OL. I remember listening to Adam Schein and Jim Miller a few weeks ago on Sirius NFL Radio where Miller commented that the word on the Broncos is "out" amongst NFL coaches and personnel guys. If you get yourself a 2 TD lead early the game is over because the OL cant pass protect against a front four (further evidenced by Kubiak's brilliant gameplan in the Houston game). On a similar note, they also mentioned that the Broncos are one of the most predictable teams to stop in the redzone as, so long as they're not on the 1 or 2 yard line, you can stack up against the run on 1st down and expect two passes afterwards because their line can't get the push up front without their zone angles.

I think Holland and Kuper are steps in the right direction as they're bigger guys who seemed to hold up in pass protection. But on the other hand, Myers and Pears were handled regularly and we have no idea what to expect from Harris. I think a better RB could certainly help with some matters - I've made it my contention that the Broncos should try to rebuild an Anderson/Bell-type combo that was so successful in 2005 - but I still believe the team's top offseason priority should be building the foundation for a great, pass-protecting, OL.

[CBF1]

The Vikings left side of the line is all world brother, Would trade with them any day of the week and twice on Wednesday.

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by montrose

In terms of the running game, one majorly overlooked aspect has been the Broncos failure to put a true blocking FB in the backfield since Griffith's retirement. Looking back to the TD days, a majority of his runs were sprung of Griffith's blocks.

My main frustration with the Broncos OL has been the pass protection, specifically since the organization's greatest asset at the moment is their Quarterback. The second Cutler was drafted, every effort should have been made into building a great wall of protection in front of him. Instead, the Broncos have stayed with the same OL prototype that was used in Plummer's tenure here. The difference being that Plummer's game focused so much on mobility he was able to make up for some of the pass blocking deficiencies. And even then so, those deficiencies were the cause for many of the losses over the past few years, particularly to the Colts and Steelers in the playoffs.

In addition, and even in Plummer's winning seasons here, the Broncos have had a huge difficulty coming from behind since the switch to a smaller OL. I remember listening to Adam Schein and Jim Miller a few weeks ago on Sirius NFL Radio where Miller commented that the word on the Broncos is "out" amongst NFL coaches and personnel guys. If you get yourself a 2 TD lead early the game is over because the OL cant pass protect against a front four (further evidenced by Kubiak's brilliant gameplan in the Houston game). On a similar note, they also mentioned that the Broncos are one of the most predictable teams to stop in the redzone as, so long as they're not on the 1 or 2 yard line, you can stack up against the run on 1st down and expect two passes afterwards because their line can't get the push up front without their zone angles.

I think Holland and Kuper are steps in the right direction as they're bigger guys who seemed to hold up in pass protection. But on the other hand, Myers and Pears were handled regularly and we have no idea what to expect from Harris. I think a better RB could certainly help with some matters - I've made it my contention that the Broncos should try to rebuild an Anderson/Bell-type combo that was so successful in 2005 - but I still believe the team's top offseason priority should be building the foundation for a great, pass-protecting, OL.

I understand your above points perfectly. My point is that the Broncos need a mobil QB to compensate for their smaller offensive line. That has been true since Elway and it was true with Plummer (Griese got fried if you remember) and it's true with Cutler.

Cutler is a QB with mobility. That is why he fits the Broncos offensive system.

However, I agree with your point about a good blocking FB. The Broncos need a good blocking FB. On the same note, they need a good blocking RB that can pick up the blitz. Terrell Davis was a great blocking RB. He hammered the blitzing LBs/safeties when they came through the line.

But, my point still stands. That is, a superior RB could help alleviate many of the olines perceived problems. An excellent FB will also help, but I think that Sapp is doing a decent job.

The Broncos system is not a "come from behind" system. When the Broncos were winning SBs, they did so because they put points on the board early, which allowed the defense to take chances, which lead to turnovers, which put the ball back into the hands of the offense.

Shanahan's system requires the offense to score early and often (sorry if I'm coming off as upset but I sound like a freaking broken record on this board).

Let me say it again: MIKE SHANAHAN'S SYSTEM REQUIRES THE OFFENSE TO SCORE EARLY AND OFTEN, THUS ALLOWING THE LESS-THAN-ALL-WORLD DEFENSE TO TAKE CHANCES. THOSE CHANCES LEAD TO TURNOVERS, THOSE TURNOVER PUT THE BALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE OFFENSE, WHICH IN TURNE LEADS TO MORE POINTS FOR THE BRONCOS.

A superior QB like John Elway allows the system to come from behind, not so much because of the system, but because of superior QB play.

Cutler has that potential. He's not Elway, he never will be Elway, and no future QB of the Broncos deserves to be cast in the Elway light. However, Cutler has the ability to play the roll of Mr. Come-From-Behind.

[Orange_Beard]

Did Larry Johnson go that far down hill in one year? Or was it the Oline?

[Tombstone RJ]

Originally Posted by Orange_Beard

Did Larry Johnson go that far down hill in one year? Or was it the Oline?

Good question. Definitely, the oline ain't what it used to be. However, health is a key factor in a RB's effectiveness. No doubt, Larry is not the same RB he was 3 years ago.

[chaz]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

My contention is that if the Broncos got that home run hitter at RB, the oline problems would be greatly reduced.

Not for Jay Cutler...our franchise QB!! but if he isn't a big concern of yours...have your RB. I'll take some OL.

[dsmoot]

Originally Posted by Tombstone RJ

The Broncos don't need to "build a team." My point is simple: Yes, the oline needs improvement. I'v never denied that. However, I do think it is servicable. It needs to be tweaked, that is all.

Peeps on this board have been b****ing and moaning about the oline since TD went down. Yet, the Broncos still keep running the ball well.

My contention is that if the Broncos got that home run hitter at RB, the oline problems would be greatly reduced.

Besides, it's not like the Broncos have ignored the oline the last 5 years or so. They have drafted olinemen.

Yes the OL needs improvement. HOWEVER, RIGHT NOW IT IS NOT SERVICEABLE. PROOF LIES IN THE LACK OF ABILITY TO RUN THE BALL IN THE RED ZONE. ADDITIONAL PROOF LIES IN OUR INCONSISTENCY IN PROTECTIING CUTLER IN THE PASSING GAME. One consistency the current line has is its inability to move opposing bodies in this area of the field. We are physically mismatched. Other teams stand our line up and get penetration. This is not something that has occurred since TD retired/hurt but has been evident the last 3 years even with Hamilton and Nalen in the lineup. Kuper and Holland do appear to be suitable going forward. Pears and Myers ?? I don't think so. Harris ? I hope so, I hope so, but if anyone is counting on him without having seen him play is playing Vegas odds. Nalen/Hamilton could both be gone from this team within 1 year for different reasons.

You are absolutely correct that our success in 97/98 was greatly enhanced by our ability to get on top early and let a much less talented defense take chances with effective blitz packages. Getting on top like we did made many teams very one dimensional. A lot easier to play defense when you knew what was coming.

However, I will ALWAYS CONTEND that what made all this possible was our dominance at the point of attack with a superior offensive line. We simply dictated the play on the field. It was no mystery to other teams what we were going to do. On top of that, bring in the Elway factor. Teams had to respect what he could do with his arm. With Sharpe, McCaffrey and Smith, teams could not stack the box. Those OL players made it all happen with a superior performance in both run and pass blocking ----- No matter what area of the field.

That OL will always be the measuring stick to what it takes for this Denver team with the same offensive system to get back to that level of success. I compare position by position on the OL to those guys, AND WE ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE with todays players.

[BroncoBuff]

All our problems can be solved with one top-flight LT, plus these two words:

Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt
Owen Schmitt

Late 3rd, early 4th .... a steal.

And we're set at interior O-Line - deep actually. And imo we're also set at RB. A discounted Henry, Selvin Young, Andre Hall and maybe even Mike Bell. Schmitt, Sapp and Smith at FB. Set.

[ShutDownPoster]

Remember how white Elway's jersey was doing the 98' Superbowl? Thats the O-line we need. I remember one story about that game - when Elway sneaked in for the TD, and amidst the pile of bodies, Stinky looked over to Elway and casually said ' Hey, how ya doin?'. I miss the old days.

[rastaman]

I'd like to see Denver go against traditional thinking and draft the top rated RB in the draft.......just like Denver did when Cutler was drafted in the first round, despite the fact that Plumber led Denver to a 13-3 season, an AFC West Title, and w/i one game of the Super Bowl.

Shanahan knew Plumber was not the answer, and more than likely Shanahan now realizes that the current group of RBs do not equal a Clinton Portis nor a Terrell Davis and are therefore not the answer!!!

So I would say the setting and climate is right for Denver to not draft a RB in the late rounds and use their 1st rnd pick on one of the top 5 RB's who would fit best in their running system.

Getting a RB that can take it to the house from 55 yards out.....sure will help us out in the Red Zone......b/c we won't be in the Red Zone every single time b/c Denver now has a RB that's a threat to take it to the house. Denver needs to target either Mendenhall or Stewart with their 1st pick!!!

MENDENHALL, RASHARD
Pros: Great size for the position with a very strong lower body. Physical back who fights for extra yards and rarely goes down on first contact. Great burst through the hole and a big play threat that can accelerate in a hurry once he sees daylight. Nice agility in the open field showing the ability to make defenders miss. Very productive in the passing game especially in the screen game where he does an exceptional job setting up his blockers. Good blocker who is willing in pass protection and understands blitz pickup.Cons: Struggled with ball security early throughout portions of his career. Didn't always run out of the shotgun but will still have to adjust to playing in traditional sets a lot more. Tends to be too content at times running north/south as opposed to searching for open cutback lanes.

Draft Exchange Analysis:
Mendenhall, the catalyst to Illinois' first winning season and BCS bowl in years is a very versatile back. He pretty much does everything you'd want your feature back to do and his ability to block and catch should make him a 3 down player at the next level. It's tough to watch him play and not see a bigger version of Marshawn Lynch. Both guys battle for yards refusing to go down and make defenders miss even in the smallest spaces. Mendenhall should be one of the top backs taken in April and there's no reason why he shouldn't start right away and make an impact.

JONATHAN STEWART:
Pros: Very powerful, thick build with an unusually low center of gravity. Has tremendous balance and superb agility. Played against some of the top defenses in the country. Very difficult to bring down in the open field. Powers between the tackles and turns the edge outside with equal prowess. Very quick feet. Good hands catching the ball. Deceptively fast and is not often caught from behind. Sets up his blockers well. Has experience returning kicks.
Cons: Ran out of a spread set and may take some time to adjust to a pro or I set. Has never been a true workhorse back, but certainly has the build to be one. At his size, he doesn't make major cuts without slowing up a step, but he accelerates back to full speed quickly.

Draft Exchange Analysis:
Watching Stewart run the ball this season has been a real treat. This is one of my favorite prospects in the draft: I keep likening him to a young Jerome Bettis though the comparison is anything but exact. Still, I see the same stocky build, superb balance, and uncanny footwork that Jerome had as Rookie of the Year in LA. One of the things that really stands out at you watching him is just how hard it is to actually tackle this guy. A typical Stewart run has him coming off tackle, getting slammed by the LB 4 yards down field. His momentum is stopped, but he's NOT GOING DOWN. He grinds forward a couple more yards before two or three more defenders arrive on the scene and escort him out of bounds after a six yard gain. Stewart is still standing and walks back to the huddle for the next play. On the stat sheet its just a 6 yard run, but to me its poetry in motion...

I'd even go one step further and take one of the athletic-bigger lead blocking FB's available in the draft...like Owen Schmitt in the 2nd or 3rd round also! A FB like Schmitt at 6'3-270 who's fast athletic and powerful, will open holes for our 1st rnd RB, as well as be a beast in short yardage inside the red zone RB, b/c Schmitt runs with such power! and will not go down with the first hit!

Owen Schmitt would also be a beast in short yardage situations in the 4th qtr when Denver needs to convert crucial 3rd downs to run out the clock; Should Denver have a lead!

Pros: Outstanding lead blocker. Has some ability with the ball in his hands. Could play as a second blocking tight end or a H-back. Weight room warrior. Would be a demon on special teams as well if needed. Could also serve as a short yardage guy.

Cons: Hasn't played in a pro style system. Needs to work on pass routes out of the fb position. Hasnt had to do much pass blocking. Hands could be better.

Draft Exchange Analysis:
Owen is a throwback fullback. A punishing lead blocker with no fear. Owen is a guy who gets by on hard work and guts, as evidenced by going from a D-3 player to a starter on a BCS team. Would best be suited for a team who runs predominately power I sets. I view Owen as a Mike Sellers type, not going to be a star player but will always find a way to help his team.

Simply put.....getting a stud RB and a stud FB in the 2008 draft will address some of the following weaknesses that plagued Denver in 2007.

1) Improve the running game and scoring ability in the red zone!

2) Add a Clinton Portis type RB who can go the distance and defenses must respect, thus allowing Cutler time to throw the ball to already talented receiving corp, b/c now defenses can't rush our QB with reckless abandon.

3) Add a monster lead blocking and hard to bring down FB to our offense!

4) A FB who can keep the chain moving with his power running and impact-full lead blocking ability!

5) With exceptions of the Detroit games and the two games against the Chargers......Denver was competitive enough win the other 6 games they lost! The 6 loses came down to not being able to score and run the ball inside the Red Zone. Denver's offense is really close to becoming explosive! Shanahan just needs to think outside the box and have the vision to address the RB and FB positions in the draft btwn the first and third rounds.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Kirwan was right on.

You cannot downplay the importance of the offensive line in the ability of an NFL offense to execute its plays.

In the case of the Vikings, you have both. When you have both a great back (you wont find another AD in the draft any time soon) and an offensive line that can execute the playbook, you have games like the 296-yarder that AD had earlier this season. On some of those runs, you see AD blast through a nice hole and on some of them you see him make defenders look silly by using his instincts and talents to gain extra yardage.

I would suggest looking at the Vikes' running game last season vs. the run game with AD.