Iranian "tactics" nearly get them killed...

[defenseman]

Iran must cease this sort of activity. It will get them killed...dman

Iranian boats "provoke" US Navy ships in Hormuz: CNN 31 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Five Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats harassed and provoked three U.S. Navy ships in the Strait of Hormuz, a major oil shipping route off the Iranian coast, over the weekend, CNN reported on Monday.

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Citing unidentified U.S. officials, CNN said the Iranian vessels came within 200 yards (meters) of the U.S. ships in international waters in the strait on Saturday, and U.S. sailors came close to opening fire.

Oil prices rose about 30 cents to over $98 a barrel after the CNN report, with traders citing increased risk of disruptions to oil shipments along the key shipping route.

U.S. military officials told CNN the boats were "attack craft" that they believed were operated by Iran's elite Revolutionary Guard.

The Iranian boats made threatening maneuvers against the U.S. warships and threatening radio transmissions, the officials told

CNN.

The captain of one U.S. vessel was in the process of giving the order to shoot when the Iranian ships began turning away, CNN said.

A radio transmission from one of the Iranian ships said, "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes," CNN reported, citing a U.S. official.

After the threatening radio communication, U.S. sailors manned their ships' guns and were very close to opening fire, it said.

There was no immediate U.S. comment.

In Tehran, an Iranian foreign ministry spokesman had no immediate comment when asked about the CNN report.

The incident occurred on the eve of a visit to the Middle East by U.S. President George W. Bush, who said last week that one of the aims of his trip was to counter Iran's ambitions in the region.

Washington has been engaged in a long standoff with Tehran over Iran's nuclear program.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080107/...a_iran_ship_dc

[cutthemdown]

They have been testing coalition response to this sort of stuff for awhile now. They siezed those British sailors and this sort of cat and mouse happens iften.

I'm not sure what the Iranians goal is because you know they don't really want a full blown confrontation with the US navy or our air power. Sure they could do some damage if they have a sizzler type missile system up and running but we could destroy every single surface ship they own in about 5 days IMO. We could leave their airforce in utter shambles in about 2 weeks and that's being generous.

[Rohirrim]

I don't think the mullahs in the government or Ahmadinijad himself control the IRG, and that creates a very dangerous situation.

[skpac1001]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

They have been testing coalition response to this sort of stuff for awhile now. They siezed those British sailors and this sort of cat and mouse happens iften.

I'm not sure what the Iranians goal is because you know they don't really want a full blown confrontation with the US navy or our air power. Sure they could do some damage if they have a sizzler type missile system up and running but we could destroy every single surface ship they own in about 5 days IMO. We could leave their airforce in utter shambles in about 2 weeks and that's being generous.

When I was reading this I was thinking PR. They provoke us to sink a ship and then they tell everyone that it was an innocent Iranian ship filled with puppies, widows, orphans, who were trying to save flipper from a tuna net and that we attacked them for no reason.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by skpac1001

When I was reading this I was thinking PR. They provoke us to sink a ship and then they tell everyone that it was an innocent Iranian ship filled with puppies, widows, orphans, who were trying to save flipper from a tuna net and that we attacked them for no reason.

On the other hand, there's always the Tonkin Bay scenario.

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

On the other hand, there's always the Tonkin Bay scenario.

That's the first think I thought of when I heard this story. Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
The NIE pretty much ruled out going to war with Iran over nukes,
so it take some other reason to got to war with Iran.

Not saying Iran didn't do this. Just the first thing that came to mind
when I heard about it.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by Bronco Bob

That's the first think I thought of when I heard this story. Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
The NIE pretty much ruled out going to war with Iran over nukes,
so it take some other reason to got to war with Iran.

Not saying Iran didn't do this. Just the first thing that came to mind
when I heard about it.

If someone points a loaded gun at you, and you have a weapon, are you not going to defend yourself? The US Navy ships in question, and the crews that man them, have absolutely the full right to defend themselves from the potential threats the iranians posed, end of story. There is no other correct answer wrt the scenario in question..........dman

[cutthemdown]

I don't think the military wants a war with Iran, Bush has ran out of time to really do it right and he isn't powerful enough with his own part let alone the dems to pull it off. If Bush's approval rating was 55% I think we would already be bombing Iran. Instead I think Bush will leave it to the next president to decide what to do about Irans growing military and influence in the region.

I do support the right of our Navy to defend themselves but they were prudent to lay off. Let's make Iran show their hand a bit more before we play ours. If they do provoke us lets make sure we get more then some attack ships and instead have a response ready that utterly destroys there entire navy.

[cutthemdown]

What kind of ships were these the Iranians provoked?

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

What kind of ships were these the Iranians provoked?

I'm thinking a frigate, a destroyer, and one other. In any case, they would have "smoked" the iranians within half a minute if the CO had ordered it so. All five iranian vessels simultaneously I might add...dman

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by defenseman

If someone points a loaded gun at you, and you have a weapon, are you not going to defend yourself? The US Navy ships in question, and the crews that man them, have absolutely the full right to defend themselves from the potential threats the iranians posed, end of story. There is no other correct answer wrt the scenario in question..........dman

Oh, no question about that. But what about a situation where you have
a neighbor you don't like and call the police on the guy and claim
he threatened you with a gun? Even thought the guy was sitting in
his own house the whole time watching a football game. That's basically
what happened with the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. The whole thing was
made up as an excuse to expand the Vietnam war. Even Johnson later
acknowledged it.
In a tape recording that surfaced in 2001, President Lyndon B. Johnson admits
that the Gulf of Tonkin second "attack," which he used to obtain approval for
the Vietnam War from Congress, never occurred.
All I was saying is that on first read this is what the story brought to mind,
here's the perfect chance for the neo-cons to start the war they have
been itching for.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by Bronco Bob

Oh, no question about that. But what about a situation where you have
a neighbor you don't like and call the police on the guy and claim
he threatened you with a gun? Even thought the guy was sitting in
his own house the whole time watching a football game. That's basically
what happened with the Gulf of Tonkin Incident. The whole thing was
made up as an excuse to expand the Vietnam war. Even Johnson later
acknowledged it.
In a tape recording that surfaced in 2001, President Lyndon B. Johnson admits
that the Gulf of Tonkin second "attack," which he used to obtain approval for
the Vietnam War from Congress, never occurred.
All I was saying is that on first read this is what the story brought to mind,
here's the perfect chance for the neo-cons to start the war they have
been itching for.

The gulf of tonkin is a far cry from the threat the iranians intended to convey to the US Navy ships. They would have been in full compliance of international law, based on the facts presently published, if they had fired upon and subsequently destroyed every single one of the iranian attack vessels. And to be honest, I'm surprised they didn't pull the trigger...dman

*200 yards is WAY TO CLOSE to allow anyone who is threatening you as they execute their attack approach. They should have been blown out of the water. I'd be asking those CO's why they didn't take them out to be honest.

[cutthemdown]

I know a lot of people think Iran could hang with us, and Gaff will tell us about how Russia sold them the sunburst cruise missile, or maybe the sizzler made by the chinese. In any event I doubt the abilty of Iran to take on America because they still don't have a way to defend against our attacks. They may be able to take out a ship like the Stark was etc or how British lost some in falklands. After that though the response would be so heavy no Iranian planes would be able to fly to carry the missile. No Iranian ships left to launch them. No subs left to launch them. Trying to hit ships from fixed land sites is not an easy proposition.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I know a lot of people think Iran could hang with us, and Gaff will tell us about how Russia sold them the sunburst cruise missile, or maybe the sizzler made by the chinese. In any event I doubt the abilty of Iran to take on America because they still don't have a way to defend against our attacks. They may be able to take out a ship like the Stark was etc or how British lost some in falklands. After that though the response would be so heavy no Iranian planes would be able to fly to carry the missile. No Iranian ships left to launch them. No subs left to launch them. Trying to hit ships from fixed land sites is not an easy proposition.

You're probably right. Oil would also be going for $500 a barrel.

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

You're probably right. Oil would also be going for $500 a barrel.

Don't confuse the repukes with facts and truth, they are to busy waging and starting wars to concern themselves with minor issues such as the cost and availability of oil!

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

I know a lot of people think Iran could hang with us, and Gaff will tell us about how Russia sold them the sunburst cruise missile, or maybe the sizzler made by the chinese. In any event I doubt the abilty of Iran to take on America because they still don't have a way to defend against our attacks. They may be able to take out a ship like the Stark was etc or how British lost some in falklands. After that though the response would be so heavy no Iranian planes would be able to fly to carry the missile. No Iranian ships left to launch them. No subs left to launch them. Trying to hit ships from fixed land sites is not an easy proposition.

Blowing **** up is the easy part, I doubt any country in the world could hang with us from that stand point. The real problem is what do you do in the aftermath? Does China and/or Russia get involved? Expanding on Roh's point, how do you deal with gas prices at $10 a gallon? These are the real problems and just like Iraq I doubt our guys have thought much about it.

[cutthemdown]

My point isnt that we should do that, its that we could. Which makes me wonder why Iran would do this. Either they aren't in command and control of the gaurd forces or they are crazy.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

My point isnt that we should do that, its that we could. Which makes me wonder why Iran would do this. Either they aren't in command and control of the gaurd forces or they are crazy.

I think the IRG is a bunch of zealots with peanut sized brains.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Blowing **** up is the easy part, I doubt any country in the world could hang with us from that stand point. The real problem is what do you do in the aftermath? Does China and/or Russia get involved? Expanding on Roh's point, how do you deal with gas prices at $10 a gallon? These are the real problems and just like Iraq I doubt our guys have thought much about it.

I'm sure the CO's of the US Navy ships are going to stop and ask, gee I wonder how the russians and chinese would feel about us blowing these idiots out of the water? Maybe I'll call the president and get the ok before I save my crew and ship and see what he thinks? I could CARE LESS what the russians , chinese or any other nation on earth thinks about it during or afterward. You are playing politics with the lives of the men and women serving on said ships. They have the right to defend themselves, to find fault with them doing so is just quite simply nutso. Deal with it at the lowest level, shipboard tactics to defend one's self may have to be employed, in doing so, it's part of the job. It doesn't need to go any farther than that. The russians and the chinese would do EXACTLY the same if their vessels were engaged in the same manner...dman

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

My point isnt that we should do that, its that we could. Which makes me wonder why Iran would do this. Either they aren't in command and control of the gaurd forces or they are crazy.

They are just trying to stir the pot, and wouldn't feel bad if their boat crews were blown out of the water. At that point, the president's trip to the ME would have probably been cancelled...dman

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by defenseman

I'm sure the CO's of the US Navy ships are going to stop and ask, gee I wonder how the russians and chinese would feel about us blowing these idiots out of the water? Maybe I'll call the president and get the ok before I save my crew and ship and see what he thinks? I could CARE LESS what the russians , chinese or any other nation on earth thinks about it during or afterward. You are playing politics with the lives of the men and women serving on said ships. They have the right to defend themselves, to find fault with them doing so is just quite simply nutso. Deal with it at the lowest level, shipboard tactics to defend one's self may have to be employed, in doing so, it's part of the job. It doesn't need to go any farther than that. The russians and the chinese would do EXACTLY the same if their vessels were engaged in the same manner...dman

Was I talking to you?

I was responding to Cutt's post that we would win a full scale war against Iran... Not once in my post was i addressing your position on this particular situation.

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by cutthemdown

My point isnt that we should do that, its that we could. Which makes me wonder why Iran would do this. Either they aren't in command and control of the gaurd forces or they are crazy.

I realize what you are saying... I also agree with Roh that we are not dealing with the brightest stars in the Galaxy.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Was I talking to you?

I was responding to Cutt's post that we would win a full scale war against Iran... Not once in my post was i addressing your position on this particular situation.

Does it matter? bottom line is, it is within their full right to defend themselves, and whether or not "anyone" on this earth stands with or against us is of absolutely no consequence. Why even bring the point up? It makes absolutely no sense to me that one would be concerned about anything but the welfare of the sailors on the US Navy ships. That is of course assuming all facts promulgated are true, which to be quite honest, having operated in that part of the world, the iranian's messing around like that doesn't surprise me at all. i guess what I'm saying is, why worry about what the russians or chinese think or believe, when our sailors actions would have been totally legal and warranted. Just an observation......dman

[cutthemdown]

Things in Iran aren't so good and the people want new leasdership. Maybe Iran needs a confrontation with the USA to keep the people focused away from the oppressive govt. Sort of an Iranian version of the American wag the dog.

[cutthemdown]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Was I talking to you?

I was responding to Cutt's post that we would win a full scale war against Iran... Not once in my post was i addressing your position on this particular situation.

I'm actually on record as not wanting a war with Iran. I do feel at some point in the future they may have to be dealt with. I just don't think it would be a regime change type war. It would more be a dismantling of key installations and nuclear enrichment facilities.