Kizla: Fire Jim Bates!

[Dedhed]

It is sad to think that this team would probably be on the verge of clinching the division if we had last year's defense, and they weren't even very good.

[Broncoman13]

Originally Posted by fontaine

I don't like a lot of stuff Kizla writes but I think he makes some interesting points:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_7557812


I'm not as trigger happy as Kizla so I don't know if firing yet another D-Coordinator is the answer. What I do expect though is for the players to play with discipline and do the basics like tackling/blocking and know their assignments. We had that guarantee with Coyer here when his units regulary overachieved beyond their collective talent.

Can we say the same for Bates? I don't think so. I honestly don't know what the answer is. What do people think, is the D showing improvement?

The thing we're doing differently now is we're constantly dedicating more and more bodies to stopping the run so that even though we're not getting gashed by RBs, offenses are now using play action to go over the top and across the middle with success against our DBs because we've usually got 8/9 in the box playing run first.

You can't argue with that. Coyer's defense was never overly talented yet they showed up on Sundays!

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by epa86b@netzero

Last year's early success, i believe was more about who we played and less about how we played. The DL were still subpar at the beginning of last year and at the end. Please don't take my statement about contradiction personal.

My guess on the large amount of points is: 1. it is skew due to two blow outs where the offensive score only 3 and 7 points; thus, there did not help control the ball and field position, and 2. defensive scheme and personnel at that time.

Hmm. . I agree that defensive successive is in large part due to the quality of offenses you play but that particular defense did play with great fundamentals and most importantly had a great base package where we could stop the run and pass without having to completely shift personnel and packages. They definitely wore down towards the end, again due to injuries.

I guess I'm just trying to find a good reason why to stick with Bates after this season other than "it's not good for the continuity" reason?

[Rohirrim]

Lovie Smith will probably be available next season.

[Garcia Bronco]

the defense has gotten better just about ever week. Kisla again proves to be a complete moron.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Lovie Smith will probably be available next season.

If Lovie is around then it's a no brainer to bring him in. I'm not 100% sure how much say he has in personnel but bringing in guys like Tillman, O-Gun, Anderson, Harris, Brown, Vasher is damn impressive. I don't know about turds like Tank but they did kick his a$$ out so that's something. I think given two years Lovie would have our defense running like a finely tuned machine given that we already have a lot of the pieces in DJ, Champ, Bly, Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, and Thomas.

[Old Dude]

One thing to keep in mind is that any "unit" on a team depends to a certain extent on cohesiveness - knowing and anticipating what your teammates will do or not do in a certain situation. When you're changing personnel around all the time, whether it's due to injuries or talent or "scheme" issues, it takes awhile to get everyone on the same page.

As guys on this defense get more adjusted to each other, I would expect it to naturally improve to a certain degree.

We also have several young guys who are still in the process of developing their NFL skills. They should also show some gradual improvement.

So do we really want to scrap the whole defensive staff and bring in more F/As and start all over again? Maybe. I dunno. I think the next five games will tell us a lot about who will be here and who won't next year.

And that includes Bates.

[go_broncos]

We are lucky to be 5-6..

Once we have the lead, we play martyball.

We almost got bet by Buff,OAK,PIT,TEN.

Luckily, the receiver's dropped the ball at crucial times.

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by Old Dude

One thing to keep in mind is that any "unit" on a team depends to a certain extent on cohesiveness - knowing and anticipating what your teammates will do or not do in a certain situation. When you're changing personnel around all the time, whether it's due to injuries or talent or "scheme" issues, it takes awhile to get everyone on the same page.

As guys on this defense get more adjusted to each other, I would expect it to naturally improve to a certain degree.

We also have several young guys who are still in the process of developing their NFL skills. They should also show some gradual improvement.

So do we really want to scrap the whole defensive staff and bring in more F/As and start all over again? Maybe. I dunno. I think the next five games will tell us a lot about who will be here and who won't next year.

And that includes Bates.

Good post. My point is we're going to have to scrap a LOT of players anyway.

Lynch - Most likely retired due to neck problems
Ferguson - already benched and older
Gold/Webster - gone
Mckinley/Adams/Engelberger - should be gone.

The only starters worth keeping? Champ/Bly, DJ, Dumervil. The rookies obviously get another season but I think we are going to make wholesale changes due to age and ineffectiveness with probably only 4 starters returning.

The question is do we start all over again with Bates next year or someone else? Right now the only reason I can think of for keeping Bates is the continuity factor. I mean it sure as hell isn't for his schemes because we scrapped them weeks ago. It's not because his defense can protect leads and it sure as hell isn't because it can limit big plays. As a matter of fact I would be very hard pressed to come up with a single consistent positive from Bates' tenure so far.

[Elway777]

If the Broncos do dump Bates ,what about Ron Rivera . Rivera help coach the Bears to the superbowl plus he is linebacker coach for the Changers. Rivera knows the Changers offence.

[broncosteven]

Originally Posted by fontaine

Your points are well taken and I agree with a lot of what you said.

What I was trying to say (and did it poorly) was that at least with Coyer even when we had subpar talent (remember Walls, Jashon Sykes, Holland, Mario Fatafehi, Spragan - all starters) Coyer got a lot out of those players. I mean we never gave up more than 20 points p/g with Coyer whereas with Bates we've regressed to the 2nd worst D in the league in points. We weren't an elite D but better than average and got to elite level last year until injuries and lack of DL production derailed a great unit.

I'm not calling for Bates' head. Frankly I don't know what to do but surely we can expect the guy who replaced Coyer to produce better results than this?

Coyer was better at hiding personnel flaws. neither guy had a DL to work with. I am giving Bates until next year to produce, I like him and thought he would be a good spark. So far no spark but they have turned some guys over. Will see what we get in the draft and FA wise.

[TheReverend]

Originally Posted by fontaine

If Lovie is around then it's a no brainer to bring him in. I'm not 100% sure how much say he has in personnel but bringing in guys like Tillman, O-Gun, Anderson, Harris, Brown, Vasher is damn impressive. I don't know about turds like Tank but they did kick his a$$ out so that's something. I think given two years Lovie would have our defense running like a finely tuned machine given that we already have a lot of the pieces in DJ, Champ, Bly, Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, and Thomas.

Champ and Bly are near worthless in a cover 2... sweet post...

[jonny1]

Originally Posted by OSKIE!!!

You can't argue with that. Coyer's defense was never overly talented yet they showed up on Sundays!

How soon they forget the defensive collapses against the Colts, Chargers, etc. last year.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by go_broncos

We are lucky to be 5-6..

Once we have the lead, we play martyball.

We almost got bet by Buff,OAK,PIT,TEN.

Luckily, the receiver's dropped the ball at crucial times.

Unluckily our recivers dropped balls at crucial times against the teams we lost to.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by jonny1

How soon they forget the defensive collapses against the Colts, Chargers, etc. last year.

Or the late season collapses in general. Coyer also wrote the 2 man rush plays.

People just need to realize this is a team in transition and we are going to take some lumps, but over the next two years we'll be a force.

[Old Dude]

Originally Posted by fontaine

... My point is we're going to have to scrap a LOT of players anyway.

Lynch - Most likely retired due to neck problems
Ferguson - already benched and older
Gold/Webster - gone
Mckinley/Adams/Engelberger - should be gone.

The only starters worth keeping? Champ/Bly, DJ, Dumervil. The rookies obviously get another season but I think we are going to make wholesale changes due to age and ineffectiveness with probably only 4 starters returning.

The question is do we start all over again with Bates next year or someone else? Right now the only reason I can think of for keeping Bates is the continuity factor. I mean it sure as hell isn't for his schemes because we scrapped them weeks ago. It's not because his defense can protect leads and it sure as hell isn't because it can limit big plays. As a matter of fact I would be very hard pressed to come up with a single consistent positive from Bates' tenure so far.

Good points.

As you pointed out, though, Fergie has been benched and I think we already have to consider Abdullah as the starter.

My gut feeling is that the staff has bigger issues with Webster than with Gold. (I know that Gold is very controversial around here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he returns)

I think it's just a matter of time before Crowder takes over Engleberger's starting spot, and I think we'll see more of the rookie as the season wears on.

So, realistically, we're talking about a DT tandem, an OLB to replace Webster, and probably a Safety to replace Lynch. That's still a lot, but a 4-man change in defensive starters shouldn't be that tough to deal with if they have the whole training camp and preseason to work with.

[Mediator12]

Originally Posted by jonny1

How soon they forget the defensive collapses against the Colts, Chargers, etc. last year.

And, how soon they forget that INDY and SD were #1 and #2 scoring offenses last year as well! Those teams embarassed a lot of defenses last year, and that defense was a lot of smoke and mirrors to begin with, let alone later in the year.

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

the defense has gotten better just about ever week.

I'd like to believe that.....but if the opposing WRs caught just half the balls they were supposed to the past two weeks, we'd most likely be looking at two more double digit losses. I just can't give the defense credit for "unforced errors" by the opposition.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by Beantown Bronco

I'd like to believe that.....but if the opposing WRs caught just half the balls they were supposed to the past two weeks, we'd most likely be looking at two more double digit losses. I just can't give the defense credit for "unforced errors" by the opposition.

We could be in the sameboat though....had our receivers caught more balls that they dropped we would have beat Chi, Greenbay, and maybe Jacksonville.

[Mediator12]

I agree Beantown. I have seen so many Drops this year for offenses, it's unreal. Somehow the WR's and TE's are getting worse at catching balls

[fontaine]

Originally Posted by TheReverend

Champ and Bly are near worthless in a cover 2... sweet post...

Seriously are you this stupid? We played a hybrid Cover 2 with Coyer and Champ was isolated most of the time and played both man and off coverage so stop generalizing so it's not like we'll just force those guys into it.

[Los Broncos]

Fire Bates?

Bates didn't slip and fall, Champ did, get over it.

And we don't have the d-line right yet or safety, till we fix it in the draft or trade, this is going to happen.

[bronco militia]

lmao at the homer takes about last years defense. They might be better than this years squad, but the results are going to be the same because this years offense is better. this still is a 9-7, 8-8 team

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

We could be in the sameboat though....had our receivers caught more balls that they dropped we would have beat Chi, Greenbay, and maybe Jacksonville.

But us catching those balls and winning those games wouldn't mean that our defense improved any.

[Beantown Bronco]

Originally Posted by Lynchmob72

Fire Bates?

Bates didn't slip and fall, Champ did, get over it.

And we don't have the d-line right yet or safety, till we fix it in the draft or trade, this is going to happen.

I may be alone here, but I'm more concerned with plays like the Desmond Clark reception than the Berrian TD. During the Clark play, the defense was obviously confused and left a guy wide open for a huge gain that pretty much sealed the deal. The Berrian play was more the result of a ridiculous catch and bad turf, not bad defense.