Greatest Offensive Mind of this Decade - The Orange Mane

Killericon · 11-08-2007, 11:29 PM

Who is it, and why? I'm quite curious about this...I think of all the best coaches in the League since 2000, and they're all defensive guys. I'm probably missing someone really obvious, though.

I do mean Coaches, by the way. Peyton Manning does not count.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 12:07 AM

well offensive minds aren't necessarily good coaches. I think gruden, and martz come to mind.

Killericon · 11-09-2007, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

well offensive minds aren't necessarily good coaches. I think gruden, and martz come to mind.

Well, the question came to mind when someone on a Shanahan thread said that he's a "Walsh coach coaching in a non-Walsh Era", which got me to wondering...If we're not in the Walsh era of offense anymore, what era are we in? Whose offensive schemes have most influenced offensive play recently?

lex · 11-09-2007, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killericon

Well, the question came to mind when someone on a Shanahan thread said that he's a "Walsh coach coaching in a non-Walsh Era", which got me to wondering...If we're not in the Walsh era of offense anymore, what era are we in? Whose offensive schemes have most influenced offensive play recently?

Shanahan. Seriously. Until Shanahan went to Denver the WCO wasnt really a running offense...plus he incorporated the zone blocking scheme into it which is an innovation on its own independent of the WCO. People may be disgruntled with Shanahan but I heard a stat when I was at the Oakland game last September. No team has rushed for more yards than Denver has over any 12 year period. Plus now theres value in undersized linemen. That also goes back to the Shanahan era in Denver.

rovolution · 11-09-2007, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killericon

Well, the question came to mind when someone on a Shanahan thread said that he's a "Walsh coach coaching in a non-Walsh Era", which got me to wondering...If we're not in the Walsh era of offense anymore, what era are we in? Whose offensive schemes have most influenced offensive play recently?

[sarcasm]The the Era of Norv[/sarcasm]

sisterhellfyre · 11-09-2007, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by killericon

Who is it, and why? I'm quite curious about this...I think of all the best coaches in the League since 2000, and they're all defensive guys. I'm probably missing someone really obvious, though.

I do mean Coaches, by the way. Peyton Manning does not count.

The nature of the NFL is that success gets copied. I'd have a hard time crediting offensive "innovation" to most NFL coaches or offensive coordinators because most of them are working on their individual interpretations of Bill Walsh's WCO.

For real innovative play I think you have to look down into the college coaches, especially at schools like Oregon and West Virginia who run spread option offenses. If Shanahan's innovation was to work a solid running game into the WCO, the innovation of the spread option may be to work an option running game into the run-&-shoot passing scheme.

The run-&-shoot hasn't flourished on the NFL level because it's too one-dimensional. I'm curious what will happen when the spread option comes to the NFL. Success in any offensive system is predicated on having the right personnel, but with the right personnel, that offense would be the next one to rewrite the record books.

Regards,
m.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lex

Shanahan. Seriously. Until Shanahan went to Denver the WCO wasnt really a running offense...plus he incorporated the zone blocking scheme into it which is an innovation on its own independent of the WCO. People may be disgruntled with Shanahan but I heard a stat when I was at the Oakland game last September. No team has rushed for more yards than Denver has over any 12 year period. Plus now theres value in undersized linemen. That also goes back to the Shanahan era in Denver.

walsh used lighter offensive lines w/ lots more outside running.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterhellfyre

The nature of the NFL is that success gets copied. I'd have a hard time crediting offensive "innovation" to most NFL coaches or offensive coordinators because most of them are working on their individual interpretations of Bill Walsh's WCO.

For real innovative play I think you have to look down into the college coaches, especially at schools like Oregon and West Virginia who run spread option offenses. If Shanahan's innovation was to work a solid running game into the WCO, the innovation of the spread option may be to work an option running game into the run-&-shoot passing scheme.

The run-&-shoot hasn't flourished on the NFL level because it's too one-dimensional. I'm curious what will happen when the spread option comes to the NFL. Success in any offensive system is predicated on having the right personnel, but with the right personnel, that offense would be the next one to rewrite the record books.

Regards,
m.

spread would get owned on the NFL. spread is more a super sophisticated option offense than a run and shoot. more vince young, less warren moon.

lex · 11-09-2007, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

walsh used lighter offensive lines w/ lots more outside running.

okay...they also didnt hang their hat on the run. Prior to the Shanahan era in Denver teams that focused on the run frequently had the bigger linemen out there...relative to other teams of their era.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:12 AM

I'd say a more accurate answer is manning/moore because thats where offense will be carried. not necessarily in the lack of motion, but in the smarter and smarter qbs, the multiple plays, the excessive audibling, the no huddle not for speed but just to stop substitution.

thats the future of offense.

2KBack · 11-09-2007, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

I'd say a more accurate answer is manning/moore because thats where offense will be carried. not necessarily in the lack of motion, but in the smarter and smarter qbs, the multiple plays, the excessive audibling, the no huddle not for speed but just to stop substitution.

thats the future of offense.

Personally I think the Colts offense has more to do with the skills of the people involved than any sort of scheme. You won't see other teams try to copy what manning does with no-huddles and audibles becasue they don't have a manning. It's like saying that strong armed scramblers are the offense of the future after Elway.

wabbit · 11-09-2007, 01:25 AM

I really don't think there's a great mind out there right now.

At the moment, it's pretty much 'monkey-see, monkey-do'...that is; teams scramble to copy whatever is working at the moment...or at least, it certainly seems that way.

There really isn't a trend, because there really isn't a trend setter as was the case back in the days or Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landy and/or Bill Walsh-Don Coryell (sp?-sorry).

lex · 11-09-2007, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

I'd say a more accurate answer is manning/moore because thats where offense will be carried. not necessarily in the lack of motion, but in the smarter and smarter qbs, the multiple plays, the excessive audibling, the no huddle not for speed but just to stop substitution.

thats the future of offense.

No. The Colts are more about execution than innovation. The idea you addressed with the no huddle started a long time ago.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lex

No. The Colts are more about execution than innovation. The idea you addressed with the no huddle started a long time ago.

lots of ideas started a long time ago. the bengals even had a bizarre molasses huddle thing. walsh's WCO wasn't thought of out of thin air by walsh.

but if u wanna know how offenses will be changing and who will be the person ppl will copy its manning/moore for the reasons I said.

2KBack · 11-09-2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wabbit

I really don't think there's a great mind out there right now.

At the moment, it's pretty much 'monkey-see, monkey-do'...that is; teams scramble to copy whatever is working at the moment...or at least, it certainly seems that way.

There really isn't a trend, because there really isn't a trend setter as was the case back in the days or Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landy and/or Bill Walsh-Don Coryell (sp?-sorry).

Too much turnover. The more complex the scheme to more time it takes for players to fully understand the offense. With the player turnover of the modern NFL it just isn't beneficial to make ground making offensive changes. Not enough time to take full benefit.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2KBack

Personally I think the Colts offense has more to do with the skills of the people involved than any sort of scheme. You won't see other teams try to copy what manning does with no-huddles and audibles becasue they don't have a manning. It's like saying that strong armed scramblers are the offense of the future after Elway.

we'll see it over time. like I said more and more intelligent qbs, more multiple play calling, more no huddle to prevent substitutions. ppl can't just copy manning because manning is pretty unique, but the attributes he brings will be copied more and more w/ time.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2KBack

Too much turnover. The more complex the scheme to more time it takes for players to fully understand the offense. With the player turnover of the modern NFL it just isn't beneficial to make ground making offensive changes. Not enough time to take full benefit.

yah thats just nonsensical, offenses are more complex than ever and you say there isn't enough time? me no buy that.

lex · 11-09-2007, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

lots of ideas started a long time ago. the bengals even had a bizarre molasses huddle thing. walsh's WCO wasn't thought of out of thin air by walsh.

but if u wanna know how offenses will be changing and who will be the person ppl will copy its manning/moore for the reasons I said.

Audibling and no huddle. Wow. Sorry, Im not signing off on that being innovative.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lex

Audibling and no huddle. Wow. Sorry, Im not signing off on that being innovative.

whatever you say chimpy.

2KBack · 11-09-2007, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

yah thats just nonsensical, offenses are more complex than ever and you say there isn't enough time? me no buy that.

just new wrinkles in the same schemes that have been run for decades. No one is innovating anything new.

lex · 11-09-2007, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

whatever you say chimpy.

Das stimmt, ashloke.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2KBack

just new wrinkles in the same schemes that have been run for decades. No one is innovating anything new.

haha well the WCO was just short passing and timing routes, which had been used before. its about the packaging really.

2KBack · 11-09-2007, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

haha well the WCO was just short passing and timing routes, which had been used before.

Sure and every offense in history has sought to score points. Sounds like you are just being contradictory.

yavoon · 11-09-2007, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2KBack

Sure and every offense in history has sought to score points. Sounds like you are just being contradictory.

I'm not, I'm explaining to you why the objection "audible and no huddle, that doesn't count!" is not a good objection.

u could also signal manning's offense as a move away from blocking tight ends, fullbacks and towards single backs w/ highly athletic TE's. so as to get the maximum # of threats into the passing system as possible, different from traditional WCO which used fullbacks and lots of split back sets.

I mean really, when manning had clark, stokley, wayne, harrison that was practically 4 wide ala the run n shoot.

2KBack · 11-09-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yavoon

I'm not, I'm explaining to you why the objection "audible and no huddle, that doesn't count!" is not a good objection.

u could also signal manning's offense as a move away from blocking tight ends, fullbacks and towards single backs w/ highly athletic TE's. so as to get the maximum # of threats into the passing system as possible, different from traditional WCO which used fullbacks and lots of split back sets.

I mean really, when manning had clark, stokley, wayne, harrison that was practically 4 wide ala the run n shoot.

Well the problem I have with calling the Colts offense the new revolution is that I really don't think it can be emulated. I don't see it changing the the way others play offense. Manning makes that engine run, it's the manning offense. It's not a system that the average system QB could run. It might be nit-picming on my front, but I really don't see it earning a spot in the history of unique offensive systems ala WCO, run and shoot, wishbone, and option.

11-08-2007, 11:29 PM	#1
Killericon YES A DT!!!!!! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: From Calgary, in Halifax for School Posts: 7,730 Adopt-a-Bronco: watermock	Greatest Offensive Mind of this Decade Who is it, and why? I'm quite curious about this...I think of all the best coaches in the League since 2000, and they're all defensive guys. I'm probably missing someone really obvious, though. I do mean Coaches, by the way. Peyton Manning does not count.

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11-09-2007, 12:07 AM	#2
yavoon Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,260	well offensive minds aren't necessarily good coaches. I think gruden, and martz come to mind.

11-09-2007, 01:12 AM	#10
yavoon Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,260	I'd say a more accurate answer is manning/moore because thats where offense will be carried. not necessarily in the lack of motion, but in the smarter and smarter qbs, the multiple plays, the excessive audibling, the no huddle not for speed but just to stop substitution. thats the future of offense.

11-09-2007, 01:25 AM	#12
wabbit Ring of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Aurora Posts: 5,449	I really don't think there's a great mind out there right now. At the moment, it's pretty much 'monkey-see, monkey-do'...that is; teams scramble to copy whatever is working at the moment...or at least, it certainly seems that way. There really isn't a trend, because there really isn't a trend setter as was the case back in the days or Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landy and/or Bill Walsh-Don Coryell (sp?-sorry).