It's the Principle of the Thing

[Rohirrim]

I watched the Blackwater hearing the other day. In the last six years, American taxpayers have paid this company over a billion dollars for doing a job the military used to do for hundreds of millions of dollars less. The CEO of Blackwater said his client is the U.S. State Department. It's as if the State Dept. has its own, private army. The estimate of Blackwater employees in Iraq is 180,000. The majority of these employees are U.S. military vets, mostly special forces, Rangers, etc. In other words, we trained them with taxpayer dollars. Some are foreign mercenaries from Pakistan, Bosnia, etc.

The existance of Blackwater raises some crucial questions for our republic. Can the State Dept. send them somewhere without Congressional approval? If they don't count as American soldiers, do they come under the umbrella of the War Powers Act? Is there any law that stops them from being used stateside by the State Dept.? If the U.S. government no longer has to use American soldiers to declare or conduct a war, doesn't that make it easier to start wars? Why do we need these private soldiers? Why don't we simply retain our Special Forces and Rangers by paying them more than we do now? It would still be cheaper than paying Blackwater. Or is their benefit to the government that they don't count in the numbers the American people read in their papers? Instead of reading that we have 500,000 troops in Iraq (there are also tens of thousands of Halliburton's private support staff besides Blackwater-type security companies providing food services, etc.), we read that we only have 140,000 troops in country. What does everybody think about this? Is this privatization run amok?

[baja]

We get more like the Roman Empire every day.

What I think about it Ro is we appear to be the latest Empire that is in deep decline.

We print valueless paper money at an absurd pace.

We attack other nations for their treasure.

We bully the rest of the world.

Our population is fat, lazy and complacent.

We do not produce much of anything while we import most of our goods from the nations we try bully.

How long before the rest of the world says enough of this bully and conspires to take us down?

[defenseman]

Soldiers for hire, have been around for a while now. As far as the poll, not enough options to log a vote and the options available don't make sense in my opinion.....dman

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by defenseman

Soldiers for hire, have been around for a while now. As far as the poll, not enough options to log a vote and the options available don't make sense in my opinion.....dman

I didn't want to encourage gray areas. Either you support the idea of the United States hiring mercenaries or you don't.

[ant1999e]

Originally Posted by baja fan

We get more like the Roman Empire every day.

What I think about it Ro is we appear to be the latest Empire that is in deep decline.

We print valueless paper money at an absurd pace.

We attack other nations for their treasure.

We bully the rest of the world.

Our population is fat, lazy and complacent.

We do not produce much of anything while we import most of our goods from the nations we try bully.

How long before the rest of the world says enough of this bully and conspires to take us down?

We are Rome.

[Rohirrim]

Actually, one of the keys to the fall of Rome is when the citizens of Rome got tired of the endless wars of conquest being carried out by their emperors and stopped serving in the military. Then, the army became a professional service leading to generals having to attack countries in order to steal their resources so they could pay off the army. Finally, it evolved where the army wouldn't serve for any general until they got paid off, or they'd only serve the general who paid the most. In other words, a wealthy general could buy himself into the emperor's seat, usually by having his army whack the sitting emperor. The citizens wanted to sit on their asses enjoying the party that their armies made possible for them, stealing resources all over the world and sending them back to Rome. And of course, they didn't want to pay taxes for it either, so the taxes were shifted to the less fortunate, usually the conquered peoples. Eventually, the Romans became fat, weak and corrupt. They didn't want to serve and they didn't want to pay taxes, but they still wanted all the goodies. In other words, Visigoth Chow.

[Bronco Bob]

Can I assume the Yes vote was from W*gs?

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

[...]The estimate of Blackwater employees in Iraq is 180,000. The majority of these employees are U.S. military vets, mostly special forces, Rangers, etc.

That number cannot be right - the BW employees outnumber the US GIs?

Assuming not every BW employee is in Iraq, then the worldwide total of BW employees would be higher - which would mean that BW is one of the larger employers in the world. That's not true.

The best estimate I've heard is that there are between 20,000 and 30,000 security contractors in Iraq.

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I didn't want to encourage gray areas. Either you support the idea of the United States hiring mercenaries or you don't.

Then, spell it out that way. I do support mercs...dman

[baja]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Actually, one of the keys to the fall of Rome is when the citizens of Rome got tired of the endless wars of conquest being carried out by their emperors and stopped serving in the military. Then, the army became a professional service leading to generals having to attack countries in order to steal their resources so they could pay off the army. Finally, it evolved where the army wouldn't serve for any general until they got paid off, or they'd only serve the general who paid the most. In other words, a wealthy general could buy himself into the emperor's seat, usually by having his army whack the sitting emperor. The citizens wanted to sit on their asses enjoying the party that their armies made possible for them, stealing resources all over the world and sending them back to Rome. And of course, they didn't want to pay taxes for it either, so the taxes were shifted to the less fortunate, usually the conquered peoples. Eventually, the Romans became fat, weak and corrupt. They didn't want to serve and they didn't want to pay taxes, but they still wanted all the goodies. In other words, Visigoth Chow.

Is that different from what I said?

[W*GS]

What's the difference between taxpayers offering potential recruits all kinds of goodies to join the military, and taxpayers paying Blackwater to provide essentially military services?

I look at it this way - either the taxpayers cough up some serious dough to get someone (either a soldier or a contractor) to do the dirty work, or, the State starts enslaving (aka a draft) people to do it.

I prefer mercenaries (the best we can buy) over draftee slaves.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by baja fan

How long before the rest of the world says enough of this bully and conspires to take us down?

Tomorrow. Better skeedaddle into your bunker and hide!

[Taco John]

I'm ok with the government hiring mercenaries. I'm not ok with the government going to war without a declaration of war, without a plan to win that war, and without a plan to exit that war. Bush has invested this nation in defeat by neglecting these key things..

[baja]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I'm ok with the government hiring mercenaries. I'm not ok with the government going to war without a declaration of war, without a plan to win that war, and without a plan to exit that war. Bush has invested this nation in defeat by neglecting these key things..

Mercenaries (professional armies) are a bad idea, way better to have a draft so that you rotate out the military personal and draw from a across section of America.

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by baja fan

Mercenaries (professional armies) are a bad idea, way better to have a draft so that you rotate out the military personal and draw from a across section of America.

Plus with a draft you invest more of the population with an interest in the
outcome. If it's a good war, WW1, WW2, you have the people behind
it. If it's a bad war, Vietnam, you have the people turn against it.
Or you can have Iraq, where most people just don't give a damn
enough about it to do anything one way or the other. Sure, you
get lip service with people claiming they don't like the Iraq war, but
where are the massive Vietnam war style protests demanding the
war stop? Is it because no one worries they or their kids might
be the next to have to go?

[Denver Crush]

Blackwater is Herr Bush's SS force. You'll get to know them personally sometime in the near future.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by W*GS

That number cannot be right - the BW employees outnumber the US GIs?

Assuming not every BW employee is in Iraq, then the worldwide total of BW employees would be higher - which would mean that BW is one of the larger employers in the world. That's not true.

The best estimate I've heard is that there are between 20,000 and 30,000 security contractors in Iraq.

The 180,000 number is what they came up with during the hearing. Erik Prince couldn't confirm it or deny it. It shocked me too. I can't believe it's that large, but they just discussed that for a moment and then moved on. The AP says that figure is correct. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...TYTWFwHzFDyZ1A Their figure seems to take in all of the contractors in Iraq. Anyway, they didn't make it clear at the hearing. It didn't seem to be an issue of dispute.

A measure proposed by Rep. David Price, D-N.C., would require all government contractors to be covered by federal criminal codes, a shortcoming revealed by the conflict in Iraq. Presidential candidate Barack Obama, D-Ill., is promoting similar legislation in the Senate.

"One suspects that contractors are being used to mask the true extent of our involvement in Iraq," Price said in an interview Wednesday. "How else are you going to interpret it when the number of contractors exceeds the number of troops?"

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by Denver Crush

Blackwater is Herr Bush's SS force. You'll get to know them personally sometime in the near future.

Is it time to stock up the munitions and "face paint"? I know I can take out a few. Body armor doesn't protect you from a direct shot between the eyes!

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by baja fan

Is that different from what I said?

Nope. I was just expanding on it.

[baja]

Originally Posted by Denver Crush

Blackwater is Herr Bush's SS force. You'll get to know them personally sometime in the near future.

That is the number one reason to reinstate the draft IMO.

[baja]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Nope. I was just expanding on it.

And a good job of it you did.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Bronco Bob

Plus with a draft you invest more of the population with an interest in the
outcome. If it's a good war, WW1, WW2, you have the people behind
it. If it's a bad war, Vietnam, you have the people turn against it.
Or you can have Iraq, where most people just don't give a damn
enough about it to do anything one way or the other. Sure, you
get lip service with people claiming they don't like the Iraq war, but
where are the massive Vietnam war style protests demanding the
war stop? Is it because no one worries they or their kids might
be the next to have to go?

That's the key of the whole thing to me. We're supposed to be a democratic republic. We choose to go to war as a people and we fight as a people. We haven't done that since 1941. It's a travesty of our basic principles. Look down this road a little bit and you can see Exxon Mobil hiring Blackwater to take out some petty dictator so they can seize their oil. Or the president can just launch an attack without even notifying Congress. This is just antithetical to a democratic government. It's perfect for an imperial government.

At the most basic level, having a mercenary army makes it much easier to start a war. Where's the checks and balances? Where's the oversight of the people?

[defenseman]

Originally Posted by Denver Crush

Blackwater is Herr Bush's SS force. You'll get to know them personally sometime in the near future.

If you knew a few of them personally, you'd find quite a few of them engaging and very professional. Not to mention the absolute opposite of your analogy. Fortunately, you do not know anything about the folks you so "eloquently" berated, ergo, you are summarily discounted...dman

*If you are interested, I could probably get a phone call sent your way by one or two if you desire some real dialogue. Let me know if you desire to find out more..

[baja]

Originally Posted by Bronco Bob

Plus with a draft you invest more of the population with an interest in the
outcome. If it's a good war, WW1, WW2, you have the people behind
it. If it's a bad war, Vietnam, you have the people turn against it.
Or you can have Iraq, where most people just don't give a damn
enough about it to do anything one way or the other. Sure, you
get lip service with people claiming they don't like the Iraq war, but
where are the massive Vietnam war style protests demanding the
war stop? Is it because no one worries they or their kids might
be the next to have to go?

Exactly.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by baja fan

Mercenaries (professional armies) are a bad idea, way better to have a draft so that you rotate out the military personal and draw from a across section of America.

You'll never get me to support a draft. No way. No how. I'd much rather contract from willing participants, than force people to go against their will.