Another missed opportunity? - The Orange Mane

TailgateNut · 09-27-2007, 12:35 PM

Bin Laden may have just escaped U.S. forces
August mission in Tora Bora almost snared 'high value target'
NBC video

Did U.S. just miss bin Laden?
Sept. 26: U.S. forces attacked Tora Bora in August amid signs Osama bin Laden was near. NBC’s Jim Miklaszewski reports.
Nightly News

By Justin Balding, Adam Ciralsky, Jim Miklaszewski and Robert Windrem
NBC News
Updated: 6:07 p.m. MT Sept 26, 2007
A little more than a month ago, with the anniversary of Sept. 11 approaching and fears of a new al Qaeda attack rising, some U.S. intelligence and military analysts thought they had found one of the world’s two most wanted men just where they last saw them six years ago.

For three days and nights — between Aug. 14 and 16 — U.S. and Afghanistan forces pounded the mountain caves in Tora Bora, the same caves where Osama Bin Laden had hidden out and then fled in late 2001 after U.S. forces drove al Qaeda out of Afghanistan cities. Ultimately, however, U.S. forces failed to find Bin Laden or his deputy, Ayman al Zawahiri, even though their attacks left dozens of al Qaeda and Taliban dead.

One of the officials interviewed by NBC News, a general officer, admitted Tuesday that it was “possible” Bin Laden was at Tora Bora, saying, in fact, "I still don’t know if he was there."

Story continues below ↓
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Still, some in the special operations and intelligence community are telling NBC News that there was a lack of coordination particularly in the choice of support troops. But with intelligence limited on who was there, no one is willing to say that the lack of key units permitted Bin Laden or Zawahiri to escape.

When the operation began in early August there was no expectation that Bin Laden or Zawahiri would be there, say U.S. military and intelligence officials. Instead, there was intelligence of a pre-Ramadan gathering of al Qaeda including "leadership" in Tora Bora. Senior officials in the U.S. and Pakistan tell NBC News that planning for the attacks intensified around Aug. 10 once analysts suggested that either Bin Laden or Zawahiri may have be drawn to the conference at Tora Bora. (When U.S. forces attacked al Qaeda camps in August 1998, following the East Africa embassy bombings, Bin Laden was attending a pre-Ramadan conference of al Qaeda in the same general area of eastern Afghanistan).

While the intelligence did not provide “positively identification” that Bin Laden or Zawahiri were at the scene, there was enough other intelligence to suggest that one of the two men was there. Bin Laden and Zawahiri are not believed to have traveled together since mid-2003 for security reasons.

Another official said that intelligence analysts believed strongly that there was a high probability that “either HVT-1 or HVT-2 was there,” using U.S. intelligence descriptions — high value targets — for Bin Laden and Zawahiri. He added that while opinion inside the agency was divided, many believed it was Bin Laden rather than Zawahiri who was present. The reason: “They thought they spotted his security detail,” said the official, a large al Qaeda security detail — the kind of protection that would normally surround only Bin Laden, or Zawahiri.

Also, locals reported the presence of groups known to be part of Bin Laden’s security detail —Chechens, Uzbeks and other Arabs, men willing to die rather than surrender top al Qaeda officials.

The military operation included "several hundred" U.S. and Afghan ground forces, say officials. Elements from the 82nd Airborne blocked off escape routes through the mountains on the Afghanistan side of the border, while helicopters inserted U.S. Navy Seals at night. The Seals pinpointed enemy positions and called in air strikes; the 82nd came in and "mopped up."

On the other side of the border, a senior Pakistani official says the U.S. military helped thousands of Pakistani forces — including their elite commando units — set up a blockade to sweep up any al Qaeda fleeing Afghanistan.

Any operation to take down Bin Laden or Zawahiri would have been formidable.

“He's surrounded by the true believers,” reported Rick Francona, who worked with CIA and special ops teams in Iraq in the 1990s. “And they will fight to the death to protect him, they will probably even kill him before they allow him to be captured. So if you're going to go in that area, you have to go in there with enough force that you think you can accomplish this mission successfully and not lose all of your guys in the process.”

One senior military official said Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Peter Pace personally briefed the president on the specifics of the ongoing operation.

The operation closely parallels the killing of Abu Musab al Zarqawi last year. NBC News reported at the time that the U.S. military did not positively determine that Zarqawi was in the house that was bombed. Instead, they had surveillance on Zarqawi's spiritual adviser who led them to the house, and the decision was made to take the shot because they didn’t want to miss the chance to get Zarqawi. One general predicts, "That's the way we'll get Bin Laden." They may not have that positive ID, but there'll be enough intelligence to prompt an air strike and they'll find Bin Laden in the rubble.

What happened this time? Military officials admit there were unidentified "planning and coordination problems" even before it got to execution, “primarily between the operators and the generals who give the go-orders” added an intelligence official. A company of the 82nd Airborne was brought in since a Ranger team trained in special operations was not available. But the combination of the “dark side” — the SEALs — and the conventional — the 82nd Airborne — didn't work. "They didn't gel," said the military official. There was "a lack of responsiveness to the intelligence and a lack of aggressiveness."

Michael Sheehan, a former Army Special Operations colonel and counter terrorism ambassador, says he is not surprised.

“Our response is normally too big, too slow, too cumbersome and too risk adverse and those factors normally come from Washington,” said Sheehan.
“The operators normally want to go in much smaller, much more low profile in order to be able to get to the target without being identified and as those plans go up the chain of command they normally get much bigger and much more cumbersome.”

But the bigger part of the picture is the question of allocation of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq. All Delta Force and “dark side” Rangers were moved to Iraq, said a special operations officer involved in the Afghanistan operation. Left behind in Afghanistan were SEAL Team Six and some Rangers. But apparently in this case, not enough “dark side” were available. The 82nd, said a second special operations officer, “is a poor substitute … [it is] a blunder to use them on an op with dark side operators.”

Here's one of the key statements, IMO:"But the bigger part of the picture is the question of allocation of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq. All Delta Force and “dark side” Rangers were moved to Iraq, said a special operations officer involved in the Afghanistan operation. Left behind in Afghanistan were SEAL Team Six and some Rangers. But apparently in this case, not enough “dark side” were available".

What did Bush say about Bin Laden?
I guess it's true!

Garcia Bronco · 09-27-2007, 12:37 PM

They don't even know if it was him according to the military.

TailgateNut · 09-27-2007, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

They don't even know if it was him according to the military.

So why even try, right? He's not important to "Not so Curious George" anywhoo!

I thought we were trying to arase AlQueda from the map.

Garcia Bronco · 09-27-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

So why even try, right? He's not important to "Not so Curious George" anywhoo!

I thought we were trying to arase AlQueda from the map.

"But with intelligence limited on who was there, no one is willing to say that the lack of key units permitted Bin Laden or Zawahiri "

Sounds like a smart move to me.

TailgateNut · 09-27-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

They don't even know if it was him according to the military.

Another official said that intelligence analysts believed strongly that there was a high probability that “either HVT-1 or HVT-2 was there,” using U.S. intelligence descriptions — high value targets — for Bin Laden and Zawahiri. He added that while opinion inside the agency was divided, many believed it was Bin Laden rather than Zawahiri who was present

I would have at least taken a few shots to see who would poke their head out of the "cave".

It's just another example of the lack of drive to get this dickhead!

NYBronco · 09-27-2007, 03:37 PM

If he was there then he is on the run again looking over his shoulder and silently questioning everyone he comes in contact with. Let him live in the hell he has created for himself.

TailgateNut · 09-27-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYBronco

If he was there then he is on the run again looking over his shoulder and silently questioning everyone he comes in contact with. Let him live in the hell he has created for himself.

I don't agree. Capture his ass, and lock him up for the rest of his life blarring our national anthem into his cell 24/7/365!

NYBronco · 09-27-2007, 03:46 PM

Honestly I prefer he no longer walked the face of this earth.

Rohirrim · 09-27-2007, 03:48 PM

I'd prefer he get a Willie Pete up his ass.

TailgateNut · 09-27-2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYBronco

Honestly I prefer he no longer walked the face of this earth.

I'd be ok with "blown to smithereens" too!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 09-28-2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

It's just another example of the lack of drive to get this dickhead!

Exactly the sort of "lack of drive" the right-wingnuts (falsely) attribute to Clinton but excuse in Bush.

Some things never change, eh?

jhat01 · 09-28-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

Another official said that intelligence analysts believed strongly that there was a high probability that “either HVT-1 or HVT-2 was there,” using U.S. intelligence descriptions — high value targets — for Bin Laden and Zawahiri. He added that while opinion inside the agency was divided, many believed it was Bin Laden rather than Zawahiri who was present

I would have at least taken a few shots to see who would poke their head out of the "cave".

It's just another example of the lack of drive to get this dickhead!

Yeah, and then the Libs would hang the soldiers who killed the wrong guy.

TailgateNut · 09-28-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhat01

Yeah, and then the Libs would hang the soldiers who killed the wrong guy.

Your comment deserves a one finger response!

yavoon · 09-28-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

I don't agree. Capture his ass, and lock him up for the rest of his life blarring our national anthem into his cell 24/7/365!

haha

09-27-2007, 12:35 PM	#1
TailgateNut Bleedin' orange! .......as much as tebonites Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mile High Posts: 20,018 Adopt-a-Bronco: Howard Griffith	Another missed opportunity? Bin Laden may have just escaped U.S. forces August mission in Tora Bora almost snared 'high value target' NBC video Did U.S. just miss bin Laden? Sept. 26: U.S. forces attacked Tora Bora in August amid signs Osama bin Laden was near. NBC’s Jim Miklaszewski reports. Nightly News By Justin Balding, Adam Ciralsky, Jim Miklaszewski and Robert Windrem NBC News Updated: 6:07 p.m. MT Sept 26, 2007 A little more than a month ago, with the anniversary of Sept. 11 approaching and fears of a new al Qaeda attack rising, some U.S. intelligence and military analysts thought they had found one of the world’s two most wanted men just where they last saw them six years ago. For three days and nights — between Aug. 14 and 16 — U.S. and Afghanistan forces pounded the mountain caves in Tora Bora, the same caves where Osama Bin Laden had hidden out and then fled in late 2001 after U.S. forces drove al Qaeda out of Afghanistan cities. Ultimately, however, U.S. forces failed to find Bin Laden or his deputy, Ayman al Zawahiri, even though their attacks left dozens of al Qaeda and Taliban dead. One of the officials interviewed by NBC News, a general officer, admitted Tuesday that it was “possible” Bin Laden was at Tora Bora, saying, in fact, "I still don’t know if he was there." Story continues below ↓ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- advertisement -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still, some in the special operations and intelligence community are telling NBC News that there was a lack of coordination particularly in the choice of support troops. But with intelligence limited on who was there, no one is willing to say that the lack of key units permitted Bin Laden or Zawahiri to escape. When the operation began in early August there was no expectation that Bin Laden or Zawahiri would be there, say U.S. military and intelligence officials. Instead, there was intelligence of a pre-Ramadan gathering of al Qaeda including "leadership" in Tora Bora. Senior officials in the U.S. and Pakistan tell NBC News that planning for the attacks intensified around Aug. 10 once analysts suggested that either Bin Laden or Zawahiri may have be drawn to the conference at Tora Bora. (When U.S. forces attacked al Qaeda camps in August 1998, following the East Africa embassy bombings, Bin Laden was attending a pre-Ramadan conference of al Qaeda in the same general area of eastern Afghanistan). While the intelligence did not provide “positively identification” that Bin Laden or Zawahiri were at the scene, there was enough other intelligence to suggest that one of the two men was there. Bin Laden and Zawahiri are not believed to have traveled together since mid-2003 for security reasons. Another official said that intelligence analysts believed strongly that there was a high probability that “either HVT-1 or HVT-2 was there,” using U.S. intelligence descriptions — high value targets — for Bin Laden and Zawahiri. He added that while opinion inside the agency was divided, many believed it was Bin Laden rather than Zawahiri who was present. The reason: “They thought they spotted his security detail,” said the official, a large al Qaeda security detail — the kind of protection that would normally surround only Bin Laden, or Zawahiri. Also, locals reported the presence of groups known to be part of Bin Laden’s security detail —Chechens, Uzbeks and other Arabs, men willing to die rather than surrender top al Qaeda officials. The military operation included "several hundred" U.S. and Afghan ground forces, say officials. Elements from the 82nd Airborne blocked off escape routes through the mountains on the Afghanistan side of the border, while helicopters inserted U.S. Navy Seals at night. The Seals pinpointed enemy positions and called in air strikes; the 82nd came in and "mopped up." On the other side of the border, a senior Pakistani official says the U.S. military helped thousands of Pakistani forces — including their elite commando units — set up a blockade to sweep up any al Qaeda fleeing Afghanistan. Any operation to take down Bin Laden or Zawahiri would have been formidable. “He's surrounded by the true believers,” reported Rick Francona, who worked with CIA and special ops teams in Iraq in the 1990s. “And they will fight to the death to protect him, they will probably even kill him before they allow him to be captured. So if you're going to go in that area, you have to go in there with enough force that you think you can accomplish this mission successfully and not lose all of your guys in the process.” One senior military official said Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Peter Pace personally briefed the president on the specifics of the ongoing operation. The operation closely parallels the killing of Abu Musab al Zarqawi last year. NBC News reported at the time that the U.S. military did not positively determine that Zarqawi was in the house that was bombed. Instead, they had surveillance on Zarqawi's spiritual adviser who led them to the house, and the decision was made to take the shot because they didn’t want to miss the chance to get Zarqawi. One general predicts, "That's the way we'll get Bin Laden." They may not have that positive ID, but there'll be enough intelligence to prompt an air strike and they'll find Bin Laden in the rubble. What happened this time? Military officials admit there were unidentified "planning and coordination problems" even before it got to execution, “primarily between the operators and the generals who give the go-orders” added an intelligence official. A company of the 82nd Airborne was brought in since a Ranger team trained in special operations was not available. But the combination of the “dark side” — the SEALs — and the conventional — the 82nd Airborne — didn't work. "They didn't gel," said the military official. There was "a lack of responsiveness to the intelligence and a lack of aggressiveness." Michael Sheehan, a former Army Special Operations colonel and counter terrorism ambassador, says he is not surprised. “Our response is normally too big, too slow, too cumbersome and too risk adverse and those factors normally come from Washington,” said Sheehan. “The operators normally want to go in much smaller, much more low profile in order to be able to get to the target without being identified and as those plans go up the chain of command they normally get much bigger and much more cumbersome.” But the bigger part of the picture is the question of allocation of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq. All Delta Force and “dark side” Rangers were moved to Iraq, said a special operations officer involved in the Afghanistan operation. Left behind in Afghanistan were SEAL Team Six and some Rangers. But apparently in this case, not enough “dark side” were available. The 82nd, said a second special operations officer, “is a poor substitute … [it is] a blunder to use them on an op with dark side operators.” Here's one of the key statements, IMO:"But the bigger part of the picture is the question of allocation of resources from Afghanistan to Iraq. All Delta Force and “dark side” Rangers were moved to Iraq, said a special operations officer involved in the Afghanistan operation. Left behind in Afghanistan were SEAL Team Six and some Rangers. But apparently in this case, not enough “dark side” were available". What did Bush say about Bin Laden? I guess it's true!

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09-27-2007, 12:37 PM	#2
Garcia Bronco Hokie since 1993 Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 46,001 Adopt-a-Bronco: Tom Jackson	They don't even know if it was him according to the military.

09-27-2007, 03:37 PM	#6
NYBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 2,994	If he was there then he is on the run again looking over his shoulder and silently questioning everyone he comes in contact with. Let him live in the hell he has created for himself.

09-27-2007, 03:46 PM	#8
NYBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 2,994	Honestly I prefer he no longer walked the face of this earth.

09-27-2007, 03:48 PM	#9
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 49,113	I'd prefer he get a Willie Pete up his ass.