The most important thing "the left" does not get.

[Bob]

I have been wondering on the various responses of most of those “left of center” who think that the idea that there are millions of Muslims who want the West (especially those in the US) eradicated – is way over-stated. That those who think there is a threat are bigoted or paranoid. I saw a recent CNN tagline commercial regarding terrorism in the US and it stated something like ”get the facts – not fear.”

So what are some things to fear? -- How about facts like: 26% of Muslims living in the US think that using terrorism against civilian targets is acceptable (according to Pew research – a source that is not exactly the National Review.) I am assuming that as Bush is felt to be an untrustworthy pres, that all aggression/acknowledgment of evil has to be nuanced into non-action?

How do the left feel about the Muslim call to prayer being announced over a loudspeaker (for all in Deerborn Michigan) to hear – five times a day? Does it seem inconsistent that the ACLU doesn’t fight against this one? Or is the ACLU too afraid to standup?

Do statements concern you when Hussein Massawi, former leader of Hezbollah, said “We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.” We are falsely assuming that the conflicts we face are in the context of our recent Western Past? How freaking arrogant and myopic!

In 2002 Robert Fisk a veteran Middle East correspondent wrote a column headlined “Please Release My Friend Daniel Pearl.” It followed a familiar line: please release Daniel, then you will be able to tell your story and get your message out. Taking him hostage is “an own goal of the worst kind,” as it ensures he wont be able to get your message out, the message being – Fisk presumed – “the plight of Pakistan’s millions of poor,” etc. Somehow he didn’t get the point – that Pearl’s severed head IS the message – that’s why they filmed it, released it on video and circulated it through bazaars and madrassas and distributed it world wide throughout the Internet.

Those on the left may not understand that faith is central here – and contrary to what Rosie would have you think – Christians may not be an equal threat even though we may vote in larger numbers. In this century we wont lop your head off if you don’t convert. I would think that gays would jump all over this one, and women’s groups as well – as they would be high on the list of infidels to destroy. Many may not feel threatened as they don’t see how they could really hurt us again, but as the New York Times got it right when Thomas Friedman wrote “ The failure to prevent September 11 was not a failure of intelligence or coordination. It was failure of imagination.” We couldn’t imagain that they would do such a thing – maybe it is our partial collective goodness that hinders our sight of imagining how the next attack will come.

Several years ago Muslim extremists went into Beslan school, took it over, and killed dozens of kids. What is under-reported are some of the details: They were raping these pubescent school girls first, killing them and throwing their dead bodies out the windows – dozens died in this horrific event. Did you hear reported on CNN last year about how Muslim men, illegally here in the US and on “watch lists” were caught while attempting to get jobs as school bus drivers – why would they want those jobs? And more recently how several Muslim men boarded children school buses, took them over for a time (as if scoping out our reactions/resistance) and later just left the bus, and managed to escape arrest? If you were attempting to start a war with the Great Satan, and bring about events that would lead to the Mahdi’s return, what would provoke the American’s? That’s right -- rape and kill children that are about 12 years old, where the boys are too young to cause any trouble. It wont be one school if it happens again – it will be many schools on the same date --in the more rural American Heartland – where law enforcement personal are limited, and response times will be delayed. Now, these are the folks that invented chess – what move do they want from us next? What would some Americans do in response? That’s right they take the law into their own hands, and so Muslims sitting at home will get the spin from TV while watching Mosques burn to the ground and see “widespread persecutions of our Muslim brothers.” Muslims from their vantage point would be attacked unjustly by the infidel because of “unconnected non-state-supported radical groups.” I can already see the “human interest stories” that would flow – some by our own media outlets.

The last hit (911) – was not big enough to start the fire that radicals want, to bring out the conflicts that they believe will bring about their messiah – this one would be used to bring about that goal.

Millions of Muslims are not radical – millions are: Who matters to us? Those that act, or those that do not standup, and do nothing?

I think that folks don’t understand that this is not about poverty, jobs, and welfare programs – this is about (according to their own words, and in their holy book) establishing a world-wide faith, by the edge of a sword, bombing, beheading or any other means. Have a nice day.

[Spider]

back up there , long post , so I will just him some key points here , and I will do it as nicely as I can ........
first off we know Muslims want to kill us , we know and understood Afghanistan had to be done , Bush had a` 89% approval rating .....
what we on the Left WANT to know is why do you mother ****ers on the right keep trying to tie Iraq in on the war on terror ? ...
this link has been to be bull**** over and over , yet you guys keep pushing it as the left doesnt understand ...... Look I dont care what the right says , the fight was in Afghanistan.........

[Bob]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

back up there , long post , so I will just him some key points here , and I will do it as nicely as I can ........
first off we know Muslims want to kill us , we know and understood Afghanistan had to be done , Bush had a` 89% approval rating .....
what we on the Left WANT to know is why do you mother ****ers on the right keep trying to tie Iraq in on the war on terror ? ...
this link has been to be bull**** over and over , yet you guys keep pushing it as the left doesnt understand ...... Look I dont care what the right says , the fight was in Afghanistan.........

I am not sure if I am one of those "a mother ****** ers" that wants to tie Iraq to anything, -- not sure if I posted much about that war directly. But I can address it if you would like. I believe that we are on the cusp of a war that will be fought directly/indirectly for decades – whether we get out Iraq tomorrow, and whether we want to be in a war or not, whether we can have “peace” for a few years at a time or not … I am also one of the admittedly slightly paranoid folks on the right that has a lot of respect for who you are, and what you do in your job – and acknowledge the sacred work you do in raising 6 kids.

The truth is however, that this subject is a hell of a lot bigger than the tired "should we have gone to Iraq in the first place debate?" I was against it (my friends thought I was off my rocker to be against it.) I got in a huge, heated debate before going to church with my wife’s family – which upset everyone quite badly – they thought I was un-American for debating it --- but now we are there. As we are already there, what I would like to do is increase our level of safety -- so do we become more safe by pulling out now (damn the consequences) or do we play the game of stabilizing the Iraq government? I am not sure, but I do think we are making progress that is under-reported.

But for the bigger issues (politicians can fight all they want) but what it lost in the media is the real nature of the threats against the US, and I think it is partially because of myopic short-term ideological and political goals -- and an inability to comprehend a people driven to fight a holy war. The left who largely reports the news can’t understand the 700 club -- they sure as hell do not understand what motivates Islamic suicide bombers. So as they don’t understand how a radicalized faith can motivate -- they attach false Western reasons/motivations to them. The media and many on the left (not all) don’t understand this enemy because they are unsure of their own “rightness to judge” between good and evil – (as even the notion of evil it is an antiquated, small-minded, man created theme.) This foundation of relativism makes one so "P.C." that they cant see evil, much less call it by its name (unless they see a Republican-voting Christian – they are fair game.)

Spider, I have always liked you, but I think as Americans we should define ourselves first as Americans, and be willing to be united in fighting against radical Islam. THIS topic is so much more important than what our politicians, and we on this board usually waste our time debating. If there are folks that cant understand the enemy (for whatever reason) that puts us in greater danger -- for simple reasons that I should not have to explain to you. Personally I think that folks should educate themselves more on the general topic – sadly the more one digs, the more (sadly true) information is out there to confirm your worst fears. I wish I was wrong on this, and pray that I am.

[BroncoBuff]

What's wrong with a Muslim call to prayer over a loudspeaker?


Bob, your logic and tidy compartmentalization into black and white boxes is shortsighted. OF COURSE there is reason to be cautious. OF COURSE they are out to get us. We KNOW they are out to get us. But "fear" is not the answer. Fear is NEVER the answer. For anything. Ever.

Democrats ALL KNOW that terror is real (did you miss Obama this week?). But they also are smart enough to know that the specter of terror does not equal cowering in your basement. More people die in auto accidents every month than died on 9/11 ... does that mean you'll run shrieking to hide behind the nearest hedgerow next time you see a Toyota?

Wait a minute - just to be sure you're objective enough to debate the topic of 'fear' and it consequences, please answer this question: Why do you think there were FOUR "Orange Alerts" in the last 68 days before the 2004 presidential election ... but just ONE "Orange Alert" in the ~1050 days since?

I will await your reply.

[BroncoBuff]

If you wanna know what a REAL threat is like .... try reading about life in London, 1940 through 44. THAT'S a real thread ... death hung over every resident every day - no exceptions.

And yet, they managed to live their lives relativley normally. They did not give in to knee-jerk fear ... as I daresay you appear to wish Americans would today.

They ARE out to get us - no doubt.

But the actual threat to individuals is very, VERY small. TINY compared to car accidents.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

What's wrong with a Muslim call to prayer over a loudspeaker?


Bob, your logic and tidy compartmentalization into black and white boxes is shortsighted. OF COURSE there is reason to be cautious. OF COURSE they are out to get us. We KNOW they are out to get us. But "fear" is not the answer. Fear is NEVER the answer. For anything. Ever.

Democrats ALL KNOW that terror is real (did you miss Obama this week?). But they also are smart enough to know that the specter of terror does not equal cowering in your basement. More people die in auto accidents every month than died on 9/11 ... does that mean you'll run shrieking to hide behind the nearest hedgerow next time you see a Toyota?

Wait a minute - just to be sure you're objective enough to debate the topic of 'fear' and it consequences, please answer this question: Why do you think there were FOUR "Orange Alerts" in the last 68 days before the 2004 presidential election ... but just ONE "Orange Alert" in the ~1050 days since?

I will await your reply.

I have no idea -- I am assuming that you are saying these tools were improperly used to push people to vote for Repubs .. if so, shame on them.

I personally think that as teh election rolls around that the fear that something might happen will increase -- it makes some sense -- look at Spain and thier last election -- if I were radical I would think that would be a prime time to hit.

[baja]

If I were a radical I would be looking at bridges.



Bob,

I don't know if there is a way to accurately research the truth concerning your beliefs relative to radical Muslim's intentions. I currently believe that you have way overstated the degree of malice intended.

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by baja fan

If I were a radical I would be looking at bridges.

Given my druthers, I'd rather have a lot more federal inspectors looking at bridges.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

If you wanna know what a REAL threat is like .... try reading about life in London, 1940 through 44. THAT'S a real thread ... death hung over every resident every day - no exceptions.

And yet, they managed to live their lives relativley normally. They did not give in to knee-jerk fear ... as I daresay you appear to wish Americans would today.

They ARE out to get us - no doubt.

But the actual threat to individuals is very, VERY small. TINY compared to car accidents.

I think you may be inadvertently proving my point. Part of the reason why full-out war happened in WWII was the earlier unwillingness to confront evil as it grew. Regarding what real threats are like: I have met one holocaust survivor, and we spoke for about two hours -- EVERYONE in her family of 6 were slaughtered -- her mother last of all was shot in front of her face. I think that the threat in 1932 was ignored when Jews were expelled from the Universities in Germany, it was ignored by good people as they stood by and did nothing -- until the political machine was too strong to stand against unless you were wiling to be crushed by it.

I really don’t want to be disrespectful regarding the car analogy, so I will leave sarcasm out, but will say that is a very poor comparison. It is more than sheer numbers of folks dead ... I just want you to consider that I may have some points, that are based more on logic than rampant, unsubstantiated fear. Learn something from a conservative, as I will learn from you -- if you can back your ideas with something substantive.

3000 car wrecks caused by chance or 50,000 deaths by chance -- does not have the psychological or financial impact on our country that 3000 murders created in 2001. 3000 Deaths caused by accidents would be sad; but 3000 deaths caused by how many terrorists – was it 19? did have a very serious impact -- obviously.

How many Muslims are in America? The answer is just over 2 million -- not many is it? Ok, so what is 26% of that number? I am not smart enough to do that math in my head -- but it may be a tad higher than 19. So, just because 26% of American Muslims say terrorism OF CIVILIAN TARGETS it is acceptable, it doesn’t mean 500,000 would pull the trigger -- I get it. But how many would be? 500? How about 5000? Is 50,000 impossible? But as the entire structure of our strength as a country was designed with security and weapons designed for the frontal attacks of the cold war (or WWII) it does not take much effort on the part of 5000 to create greater havoc than 3000 car wrecks ever could. Remember 19 folks = 3000 why back in 2001. What would be the math of 500 willing to die for Allah, and feeling very comfortable sending us back to the 9th century (where they already are.) They may have little to loose.

"As clashes of civilizations go this one's between two extremes: on the one hand, a world that has everything it needs to wage decisive war -- wealth, armies, industries, technology; on the other, a world that has nothing but pure ideology and plenty of believers. Everything else [Radical Islam] requires it can pick up at Radio Shack: cell phones, and laptops, which along with ATM cards and some dime-store box cutters, were all it took to pull off September 11.

In a short war put your money on tanks and bombs -- our strengths. In a long war, the better bet is on will and manpower -- their strengths. Even a looser can win when he's up against a defeatist."

Mark Steyn

[baja]

We are so vulnerable In the United States and if Bob is anywhere near right we better get clear and real with a plan because the current leaders don't seen to have a clue unless of course their plan is to destroy America.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by baja fan

If I were a radical I would be looking at bridges.



Bob,

I don't know if there is a way to accurately research the truth concerning your beliefs relative to radical Muslim's intentions. I currently believe that you have way overstated the degree of malice intended.

Then research it on you own -- please! I am in many cases only going on what their own leaders have said that they would like to accomplish. Learn about the doctrine -- what many radical Muslims would like to accomplish --Like I said it is hard to believe (in part) because we want to be inclusive, and assume the best in folks, but you can assume the best in individuals – but know that radical, militatant Islam is evil. I think the more one learns the more concerned one becomes. Just think about the problems that one Danish cartoon caused in the European world (and even Canada)-- as Muslims responded with great violence, protests, lawsuits, death threats, torching -- people were murdered over one defamatory cartoon -- 9 in all -- including a nun or two. While artists put crosses in urine and call it art – Christians are offended, but we don’t mount protests across the world.

Or how about 2 million (primarily Christians) killed in the Sudan by their Muslim brothers in the 1990's -- the world didn’t even notice.

I have not over-stated anything. You may not want this issue to real, because it is so ugly, and quite frankly very scary, but it is a growing reality -- that is understated -- not over stated by our government.

[BroncoBuff]

Bob - YES - you're RIGHT! Rove and the GOP used those tools to ratchet up fear pre-election. Rove was coy when asked about it at some corporate function he spoke at about a year ago. I saw it on YouTube ... I don't know if he knew he was being taped, but he said something like, "would WE do that?", then he smiled. And it's hard to think that such an Orange Alert discrepancy was merely chance.

___

Okay ... in your longer response, you changed the subject. The thread was started with your claim that the "the left" doesn't get it - doesn't appreciate the seriousness of the terror threat against us.

I RESPONDED: We appreciate it as well as anyone. We just refuse to permit FEAR to manifest as a reaction to that threat. I listed a different, far more real threat - car accidents - to illustrate that people don't have to walk around in a state of fear merely because we face risks.

In my opinion, YOUR COMPLAINT WOULD BE BETTER STATED: "The left/liberals/Democrats don't speak in terms of fear when they refer to terror situations. Right/conservatives/GOP better understand the threat because we respond to it with FEAR, and fear-based reactions." We believe those reactions include draconian surrendering of rights and liberties.

Londoners in the early 1940s understood the difference - as the Democrats understand that difference now. Never was Franklin's saying more applicable:

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither"

We understand the threat as well as anybody else ... we just refuse to over-react to it. It's a law enforcement problem, not a military one. And besides, why are we even having this discussion? The RIGHT doesn't understand the threat. If they did, Bush wouldda pressed every available resource to nail bin-Laden. And he wouldda left Iraq alone. It is said Bush did not even know the difference between Sunni and Shi'ia when he invaded Iraq. I find that hard to believe, but the fact we even entertain the possibility proves what a grotesque idiot he truly is. BUSH has never understood the real threat.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bob

I am not sure if I am one of those "a mother ****** ers" that wants to tie Iraq to anything, -- not sure if I posted much about that war directly. But I can address it if you would like. I believe that we are on the cusp of a war that will be fought directly/indirectly for decades – whether we get out Iraq tomorrow, and whether we want to be in a war or not, whether we can have “peace” for a few years at a time or not … I am also one of the admittedly slightly paranoid folks on the right that has a lot of respect for who you are, and what you do in your job – and acknowledge the sacred work you do in raising 6 kids.

The truth is however, that this subject is a hell of a lot bigger than the tired "should we have gone to Iraq in the first place debate?" I was against it (my friends thought I was off my rocker to be against it.) I got in a huge, heated debate before going to church with my wife’s family – which upset everyone quite badly – they thought I was un-American for debating it --- but now we are there. As we are already there, what I would like to do is increase our level of safety -- so do we become more safe by pulling out now (damn the consequences) or do we play the game of stabilizing the Iraq government? I am not sure, but I do think we are making progress that is under-reported.

But for the bigger issues (politicians can fight all they want) but what it lost in the media is the real nature of the threats against the US, and I think it is partially because of myopic short-term ideological and political goals -- and an inability to comprehend a people driven to fight a holy war. The left who largely reports the news can’t understand the 700 club -- they sure as hell do not understand what motivates Islamic suicide bombers. So as they don’t understand how a radicalized faith can motivate -- they attach false Western reasons/motivations to them. The media and many on the left (not all) don’t understand this enemy because they are unsure of their own “rightness to judge” between good and evil – (as even the notion of evil it is an antiquated, small-minded, man created theme.) This foundation of relativism makes one so "P.C." that they cant see evil, much less call it by its name (unless they see a Republican-voting Christian – they are fair game.)

Spider, I have always liked you, but I think as Americans we should define ourselves first as Americans, and be willing to be united in fighting against radical Islam. THIS topic is so much more important than what our politicians, and we on this board usually waste our time debating. If there are folks that cant understand the enemy (for whatever reason) that puts us in greater danger -- for simple reasons that I should not have to explain to you. Personally I think that folks should educate themselves more on the general topic – sadly the more one digs, the more (sadly true) information is out there to confirm your worst fears. I wish I was wrong on this, and pray that I am.

my entire point is , we cant move any direction with terrorism as long as Iraq is the way it it , you said it yourself , generations will`be at this`.......
Back on 9-11 , it wasnt a generational war , it was a kick bin laden and kick Al-qadeas ass war ....
we took a simple thing , like over taking afghanistan , and nailing Al Qadea hard to the wall , outsourced the job and went ot Iraq ....
now lets look at some real hard facts here .... Muslims are very biased to start with , really wont take the time to see another point of view , their way is the right way ,the average Muslim does not have the media resources we do , their information is very limited , so many see the USA helping the Jews as waging a war against Islam ....AL Qadea is strong again because of Iraq ...
and the thing is ..this doesnt have to be a war , it can be faught in a different tactical way , precision attacks like Swat for a police dept does , only more heavly armed ......
that would be a` much quicker way , more effective .....
oh and thanks for the respect

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

What's wrong with a Muslim call to prayer over a loudspeaker?
.

So you are saying you wouldn't mind muslim prayers being pumped into your neighborhood over a loud speaker 5 times a day? Heck I don't want to hear anything from a public pa system other than a tornado warning etc.

Everyone makes this out to be Bush's war. It's Israel's and we've been sucked into it. Get use to it and thank them when the nukes start popping off. Only matter of time.

[alkemical]

Hey bob - question for you?

Why does a President - who was gov. of a boarder state do nothing about the boarders?

Sorry to sink your rant.

Some people want to play left/right and that's exactly the point. Divide and conquer. Thanks Bob for helping to destroy America. Go back to listening to talk radio.

[Rohirrim]

So Bob has bought in, hook-line-and-sinker, to Bush's call to paranoia. Glad to see Bush still has somebody listening to him. Most people have the good sense to realize he's a fool and are simply waiting for his time to run out so we can back to being the people, and the country, we were meant to be.

I'll be nice, Bobbo, and try to help you get your head straight. The United States has suffered terrorist attacks since its inception, from Barbary Pirates, to Pancho Villa, and all the way up until today's Islamic extremists. Until the present day silliness, no matter how nasty the extremist foe, nobody ever made the mistake of believing they could possibly win, no matter how horrendous any single attack.

We once faced an actual threat to our existence. Khruschev banged his fist on a podium at the UN and shouted, "We will bury you." He was backed up by thousands of nukes and a massive armed forces. Did we sell out everything we stand for over that?

And now we have this punk, Bush, in the White House, and his cabal of greedy little oil merchants trying to convince the American people that we're all a bunch of chicken littles who should be duct taping our windows, hiding under our beds, and destroying the Constitution over the threats from some cave dwelling rug heads.

The Left always had the sense to know that the only thing we had to fear was fear itself. Hopefully, the Right can pick up on that and grow a set.

[RMT]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

What's wrong with a Muslim call to prayer over a loudspeaker?


Bob, your logic and tidy compartmentalization into black and white boxes is shortsighted. OF COURSE there is reason to be cautious. OF COURSE they are out to get us. We KNOW they are out to get us. But "fear" is not the answer. Fear is NEVER the answer. For anything. Ever.

Democrats ALL KNOW that terror is real (did you miss Obama this week?). But they also are smart enough to know that the specter of terror does not equal cowering in your basement. More people die in auto accidents every month than died on 9/11 ... does that mean you'll run shrieking to hide behind the nearest hedgerow next time you see a Toyota?

Wait a minute - just to be sure you're objective enough to debate the topic of 'fear' and it consequences, please answer this question: Why do you think there were FOUR "Orange Alerts" in the last 68 days before the 2004 presidential election ... but just ONE "Orange Alert" in the ~1050 days since?

I will await your reply.

What's wrong with a Muslim prayer over a SCHOOL loudspeaker? Separation of church and state for one. If it were a Christian prayer (which is technically illegal to do), the ACLU and numerous other religious groups would be ALL OVER that.

[baja]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

So Bob has bought in, hook-line-and-sinker, to Bush's call to paranoia. Glad to see Bush still has somebody listening to him. Most people have the good sense to realize he's a fool and are simply waiting for his time to run out so we can back to being the people, and the country, we were meant to be.

I'll be nice, Bobbo, and try to help you get your head straight. The United States has suffered terrorist attacks since its inception, from Barbary Pirates, to Pancho Villa, and all the way up until today's Islamic extremists. Until the present day silliness, no matter how nasty the extremist foe, nobody ever made the mistake of believing they could possibly win, no matter how horrendous any single attack.

We once faced an actual threat to our existence. Khruschev banged his fist on a podium at the UN and shouted, "We will bury you." He was backed up by thousands of nukes and a massive armed forces. Did we sell out everything we stand for over that?

And now we have this punk, Bush, in the White House, and his cabal of greedy little oil merchants trying to convince the American people that we're all a bunch of chicken littles who should be duct taping our windows, hiding under our beds, and destroying the Constitution over the threats from some cave dwelling rug heads.

The Left always had the sense to know that the only thing we had to fear was fear itself. Hopefully, the Right can pick up on that and grow a set.

The difference is, and it's the ingredient that troubles me the most, is this is religion driven. All other threats were power driven and that emotion does not have the staying power or fervency of belief based motives.

Religious and fanatic have never make good bed fellows.

[W*GS]

Funny how some of the folks decrying Bob for falling for Bush's tactics of paranoia and fear are the exact same folks who spread little more than fearmongering and paranoia here on the ol' OM.

Why is that?

[W*GS]

Why are so many people motivated by fear, anyway? Is that really the way to go through life, fearful?

[baja]

Originally Posted by W*GS

Why are so many people motivated by fear, anyway? Is that really the way to go through life, fearful?

No they could do what you do, go through life angry.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by baja fan

The difference is, and it's the ingredient that troubles me the most, is this is religion driven. All other threats were power driven and that emotion does not have the staying power or fervency of belief based motives.

Religious and fanatic have never make good bed fellows.

All religion is a form of fanaticism; Opiate of the people, and all that. We have a pretty virulent strain of religious fanaticism right here at home. In fact, there are plenty of Christian Taliban right here in America who would just love to jettison the Constitution in favor of some kind of Biblical sharia law. They're the ones who keep trying to put Christian prayer in our schools and the ten commandments in our courthouses.

[baja]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

All religion is a form of fanaticism; Opiate of the people, and all that. We have a pretty virulent strain of religious fanaticism right here at home. In fact, there are plenty of Christian Taliban right here in America who would just love to jettison the Constitution in favor of some kind of Biblical sharia law. They're the ones who keep trying to put Christian prayer in our schools and the ten commandments in our courthouses.

That is clearly true Ro but that does nothing to address the concern Bob raises and that you mostly discount nor does it address the point of my post that you quoted, which is as a nation not to over look the possibility that Bob may have a point about the level and breath of the fanatical Muslim's commitment to kill 'us.'

My point is Know who and what your enemy is.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis

Hey bob - question for you?

Why does a President - who was gov. of a boarder state do nothing about the boarders?

Sorry to sink your rant.

Some people want to play left/right and that's exactly the point. Divide and conquer. Thanks Bob for helping to destroy America. Go back to listening to talk radio.

"Thanks Bob for helping to destroy America." Am I destroying America by backing up my statements with actual examples and daring to suggest that we are fighting an enemy that may be tougher that many want to admit? I think that in order to rattle a cage or to, yes, I called out to "the left" to make thier case, which they are attempting to do. This topic is important enough to make a few bold statements to help folks hear and debate the issue -- in saying somethings that are bold, I have attempted to back it up, and have tried to be truthful.

I think that it is intresting, and quite frankly sad how quickly big-picture topics quick turn into "Bush did this or that" There are many threads on those things -- it is very small thinking to think in terms of Dem vs Repubs when it comes to national secuity -- and I am stating simply that those who are left of center have largly been unwilling and unable to see the the threat of Radical Islam -- they still see the whole issue as Bush's war, or a police action, or any number of things -- and this is one of the things where I think the left is hurting our country.

On the other Bush issue that you felt compelled to bring up --IF you have EVER read one single post of mine regarding border issues and how I think Bush is doing, I think in that area he actions are close to traitorous -- I dont see many politicains (right or left) attempting to do the right thing on boarder issues. The Dem wants an eventual vote, the Repub's want to exploit a slave-labor force. Americans just want the rule of law to be enforced and a means whereby people who want to come and work in this country can do so without having to wait seven years.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

All religion is a form of fanaticism; Opiate of the people, and all that. We have a pretty virulent strain of religious fanaticism right here at home. In fact, there are plenty of Christian Taliban right here in America who would just love to jettison the Constitution in favor of some kind of Biblical sharia law. They're the ones who keep trying to put Christian prayer in our schools and the ten commandments in our courthouses.

Ok, so you dislike people of faith (who may ram their faith down your throat?) I would fight for your right to believe or not believe --- I will speak out on issues of faith and irritate, but I would not ram anything down your throat, nor will I sever it.

Once again people that are not able to understand people of faith, put them into the same tired Western boxes, and see the threats of religious intolerance (of some Christians) in the same light as those who demand conversion or death. The word Islam itself means to "submit." Christians generally want a change of heart -- which one is more prone to violence right now when we don’t get our way?

Look to Europe and see what will continue to unfold there -- how the rights of Europeans to live a secular life will be taken from them, in partial measure because they do not understand the Islamic faith, who's adherents are having children at a rate of 3.5 in Europe, while their European neighbors are have children at rates of 1.38. In France 40% of those living in urban areas happen to be Muslim -- it was not that way 40 years ago...so cars burn and they talk about poverty and greater welfare benefits – and if you do speak up? Well there are laws to muffle that free speech – as the things I am saying have been turned to “hate speech” and so the obvious cant even be stated, and euphemisms water down reality.

If you want to talk about demographics I can --- Europe is committing a slow suicide.