“Republicans” and “Democrats” what a load of crap

[Bob]

How many here are defined by a political party that cares nothing for you or your family? All I see posted lately are tag lines that start “Bush did this or that” – as if conservatives live or die by the guy who has betrayed many of the values that conservatives hold to. Republicans are guilty of this too.

So is there something bigger and more important than party that defines you? Spider, that is your family right? How about family, or fatherhood, or Christian, or American, or a philosophy of decentness? All of these seem much better anchors to weather the storms of shifting values. Look at the values of JFK – he would be considered a conservative if he were reincarnated today, or if that is too much to stomach, how about the values of Lincoln who was more concerned about holding the Union together than abolishing slavery. The truth is he would be considered a religious nut job and bigot by most “modern” standards, even more so for Jefferson or Washington.

So my point is this: parties change with the fickle winds not rooted in the pursuit of truth, but in the pursuit of power and self-preservation -- so when you start labeling yourself as Republican or Democrat you allow some of the baggage that comes with that identification. These two power-driven entities start to influence how you think, to hate the “other guy.” And become sheeple. As if conservatives and liberals were another freaking species to be held with contempt.

When I said that I was no longer a Republican a few years ago, it was liberating. I could vote for who I thought was the best person, (yes I have voted for a few Dems since that time.) Jefferson was very concerned the political parties would eventually rip the country apart. I am beginning to believe that he was right, because combined with the media we are awash in “the spectacle” that does not give a crap about getting at the core of things, and to find common ground. Those that give the “information” are concerned about ratings, money, and agenda. The media (and politicians I might add) love for two yelling heads in opposing boxes to screech and signify nothing, because in the end it means the status quoi – like some freaking opiate that deadens the collective American consciousness. The People get more and more stupid and pissed off "thinking" they have been wronged, as every random act of God is turned into a conspiracy caused by the other party. For political points, weak levies in New Orleans turn into a right-wing bomb-blast, or the twin towers are taken down by our government, not terrorists – all because some blog is regurgitated by those with agendas. Those left of center will be able to cite many examples where the right have some the same things for political gain, and divisiveness. Those that do this will rot in hell. The people of the nation gradually loose the ability to connect, emphasize, and have respect and get at common ground – because the are pathetic, small R's and D's – and not Americans first.

Look at the recent “immigration” debate. The Republicans as well as the Democrats were ignoring the will of the people on this one and wanted to pass it for their own personal gain and screw the people. It was damn hard to stop it as well. The switchboards had to be shut down in DC with the volume of calls to representatives telling them that We The People didn’t want it, but they still fought hard for it. If we are too busy yelling at each other they can keep treating us for granted, and sheeple us into small, controlled definitions.

[Northman]

Im a independent so i try to be as objective as possible when choosing a person for office or whatever politics wise. My family is more important than anything else including country. I know that Spider and a few others feel differently and thats their perogative. As you've stated, no politician gives a **** about the people of this country no matter what their party is. The U.S Goverment has been on the steep Decline for years now but that shouldnt be a shock to anyone at this point.

[jhat01]

The two party system is a stagnant joke. Here's a quote that pretty much sums it up:

“The tendency of the system is to drive to the middle,” she says. “The problem is, the middle isn’t where you find what most people want and believe in, but where you find the most voters.”

[Garcia Bronco]

Read Federalist Paper #10

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bob

How many here are defined by a political party that cares nothing for you or your family? All I see posted lately are tag lines that start “Bush did this or that” – as if conservatives live or die by the guy who has betrayed many of the values that conservatives hold to. Republicans are guilty of this too.

So is there something bigger and more important than party that defines you? Spider, that is your family right? How about family, or fatherhood, or Christian, or American, or a philosophy of decentness? All of these seem much better anchors to weather the storms of shifting values. Look at the values of JFK – he would be considered a conservative if he were reincarnated today, or if that is too much to stomach, how about the values of Lincoln who was more concerned about holding the Union together than abolishing slavery. The truth is he would be considered a religious nut job and bigot by most “modern” standards, even more so for Jefferson or Washington.

So my point is this: parties change with the fickle winds not rooted in the pursuit of truth, but in the pursuit of power and self-preservation -- so when you start labeling yourself as Republican or Democrat you allow some of the baggage that comes with that identification. These two power-driven entities start to influence how you think, to hate the “other guy.” And become sheeple. As if conservatives and liberals were another freaking species to be held with contempt.

When I said that I was no longer a Republican a few years ago, it was liberating. I could vote for who I thought was the best person, (yes I have voted for a few Dems since that time.) Jefferson was very concerned the political parties would eventually rip the country apart. I am beginning to believe that he was right, because combined with the media we are awash in “the spectacle” that does not give a crap about getting at the core of things, and to find common ground. Those that give the “information” are concerned about ratings, money, and agenda. The media (and politicians I might add) love for two yelling heads in opposing boxes to screech and signify nothing, because in the end it means the status quoi – like some freaking opiate that deadens the collective American consciousness. The People get more and more stupid and pissed off "thinking" they have been wronged, as every random act of God is turned into a conspiracy caused by the other party. For political points, weak levies in New Orleans turn into a right-wing bomb-blast, or the twin towers are taken down by our government, not terrorists – all because some blog is regurgitated by those with agendas. Those left of center will be able to cite many examples where the right have some the same things for political gain, and divisiveness. Those that do this will rot in hell. The people of the nation gradually loose the ability to connect, emphasize, and have respect and get at common ground – because the are pathetic, small R's and D's – and not Americans first.

Look at the recent “immigration” debate. The Republicans as well as the Democrats were ignoring the will of the people on this one and wanted to pass it for their own personal gain and screw the people. It was damn hard to stop it as well. The switchboards had to be shut down in DC with the volume of calls to representatives telling them that We The People didn’t want it, but they still fought hard for it. If we are too busy yelling at each other they can keep treating us for granted, and sheeple us into small, controlled definitions.

as sad as it is , I identify myself by my Job , I try not to , but I do , Fatherhood and family second , then political party , I am damn proud of my family , and I love them more then anything .....except for my Job ..... I am an American trucker , I am always in a hurry to get home and see my family , but then I have to get some miles .............
perhaps I need therapy

[Bob]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Read Federalist Paper #10

Synopsis?

[Bronco Bob]

Originally Posted by jhat01

The two party system is a stagnant joke. Here's a quote that pretty much sums it up:

“The tendency of the system is to drive to the middle,” she says. “The problem is, the middle isn’t where you find what most people want and believe in, but where you find the most voters.”

So basically she is saying that the majority of people are on the left and right
but they are too lazy to get off their asses and vote for someone so the
middle gets to pick who they want instead because the middle has enough
ambition to vote?

[Bob]

I have heard somehwere that the truth is usually found somewhere between two extremes. I guess I am screwed then.

[Crushaholic]

Originally Posted by Bob

How many here are defined by a political party that cares nothing for you or your family? All I see posted lately are tag lines that start “Bush did this or that” – as if conservatives live or die by the guy who has betrayed many of the values that conservatives hold to. Republicans are guilty of this too.

So is there something bigger and more important than party that defines you? Spider, that is your family right? How about family, or fatherhood, or Christian, or American, or a philosophy of decentness? All of these seem much better anchors to weather the storms of shifting values. Look at the values of JFK – he would be considered a conservative if he were reincarnated today, or if that is too much to stomach, how about the values of Lincoln who was more concerned about holding the Union together than abolishing slavery. The truth is he would be considered a religious nut job and bigot by most “modern” standards, even more so for Jefferson or Washington.

So my point is this: parties change with the fickle winds not rooted in the pursuit of truth, but in the pursuit of power and self-preservation -- so when you start labeling yourself as Republican or Democrat you allow some of the baggage that comes with that identification. These two power-driven entities start to influence how you think, to hate the “other guy.” And become sheeple. As if conservatives and liberals were another freaking species to be held with contempt.

When I said that I was no longer a Republican a few years ago, it was liberating. I could vote for who I thought was the best person, (yes I have voted for a few Dems since that time.) Jefferson was very concerned the political parties would eventually rip the country apart. I am beginning to believe that he was right, because combined with the media we are awash in “the spectacle” that does not give a crap about getting at the core of things, and to find common ground. Those that give the “information” are concerned about ratings, money, and agenda. The media (and politicians I might add) love for two yelling heads in opposing boxes to screech and signify nothing, because in the end it means the status quoi – like some freaking opiate that deadens the collective American consciousness. The People get more and more stupid and pissed off "thinking" they have been wronged, as every random act of God is turned into a conspiracy caused by the other party. For political points, weak levies in New Orleans turn into a right-wing bomb-blast, or the twin towers are taken down by our government, not terrorists – all because some blog is regurgitated by those with agendas. Those left of center will be able to cite many examples where the right have some the same things for political gain, and divisiveness. Those that do this will rot in hell. The people of the nation gradually loose the ability to connect, emphasize, and have respect and get at common ground – because the are pathetic, small R's and D's – and not Americans first.

Look at the recent “immigration” debate. The Republicans as well as the Democrats were ignoring the will of the people on this one and wanted to pass it for their own personal gain and screw the people. It was damn hard to stop it as well. The switchboards had to be shut down in DC with the volume of calls to representatives telling them that We The People didn’t want it, but they still fought hard for it. If we are too busy yelling at each other they can keep treating us for granted, and sheeple us into small, controlled definitions.

Great post, Bob. People need to wake up to the fact that politicians of both parties are focused on gaining and holding on to power. Once that is realized, maybe some of this bickering simply based on "Republicans vs. Democrats" will stop and we can focus on what's actually good for America...

[Stormontheplains]

Great post Bob! Keep up the good work

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by Bob

Synopsis?

Basically this:

It was written by James Madison. He basically says that political parties (a.k.a Factions) are the disease of a democracy/republican government.


"By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests."


The first method is actually happening and the second is impossible. Here Madison is basically saying factions destroy the liberty of others. He's also saying the only way to abolish factions is create a utopia or have everyone in the same faction. That's impossible.




http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

[BroncoInferno]

A multi-party system would work no better. In fact, they are worse. It becomes extraordinarily difficult to form a consensus on many issues in such systems. See some of the problems in the German parliment from the last couple of years as proof.

[alkemical]

If you only have two choices (for the most part), how sure are 'we' that we aren't being directed to voting for those two guys (illusion of choice).

Karl Marx stated in Das Kapital about the end result of capitalism is communism - it's about a/b choices - nothing more. When you interject that into the market place of ideas, it's no different.

We were duped along time ago into this.

[ant1999e]

Originally Posted by Bob

Jefferson was very concerned the political parties would eventually rip the country apart. I am beginning to believe that he was right, because combined with the media we are awash in “the spectacle” that does not give a crap about getting at the core of things, and to find common ground. Those that give the “information” are concerned about ratings, money, and agenda.

This is definately happening in the US today and ratings, money, and agenda are breaking down our political system and destroying our country.

[BurgundyNGold]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Read Federalist Paper #10

Damned nice pull, GB. One of the best editorials ever written, IMO.

[c_lazy_r]

What should happen then, Bob (or anyone else)?

The "machine" has become so large that it seems almost impossible to change in small increments. It would appear to me that we just need to unplug it and reboot.

I ask myself a question every 4 years... Are you telling me that these 2 or 3 guys are the best options available to run this country? My answer is always "no".

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by c_lazy_r

What should happen then, Bob (or anyone else)?

The "machine" has become so large that it seems almost impossible to change in small increments. It would appear to me that we just need to unplug it and reboot.

I ask myself a question every 4 years... Are you telling me that these 2 or 3 guys are the best options available to run this country? My answer is always "no".

Honestly...the first thing I would do is completely decrease all term limits. Then I would eliminate most social programs. Next thing I would do is reform the tax code. then I would make all elected positions in the Senate, House, and WH unpaid positions...or at the very least make the pay an average of the yearly household income.

[Play2win]

Originally Posted by c_lazy_r

What should happen then, Bob (or anyone else)?

The "machine" has become so large that it seems almost impossible to change in small increments. It would appear to me that we just need to unplug it and reboot.

I ask myself a question every 4 years... Are you telling me that these 2 or 3 guys are the best options available to run this country? My answer is always "no".

Maybe we should switch to multi-party system, where each party campaigns a platform, not an individual. There can be as many parties as see fit. The voters vote on the party and their platform, not the individual. This way, the accessibility of other parties to be involved in, if not compete and possibly win, the political process would be much greater. It would be much more open and fair.

I love how some talk about the "open market" and how the "market" should decide, just keep it an open market. This when the whole of our political system is one of the most closed markets ever. Just like the campaigning politician "We need to keep the markets open", then mumbling to himself, "as long as I keep MY markets safe, secure and CLOSED."

[Play2win]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Honestly...the first thing I would do is completely decrease all term limits. Then I would eliminate most social programs. Next thing I would do is reform the tax code. then I would make all elected positions in the Senate, House, and WH unpaid positions...or at the very least make the pay an average of the yearly household income.

Note to all the extreme libertarians (not saying you are one) out there- There is a little thing called the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION that has happened since the Framers convened and set forth the design of our nation. Entitlement spending is a necessity (to some degree) because of the Industrial Revolution.

[c_lazy_r]

Originally Posted by DS49

Note to all the extreme libertarians (not saying you are one) out there- There is a little thing called the INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION that has happened since the Framers convened and set forth the design of our nation. Entitlement spending is a necessity (to some degree) because of the Industrial Revolution.

Can you expand on that? I am unsure of what you mean.

[baja]

Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis

If you only have two choices (for the most part), how sure are 'we' that we aren't being directed to voting for those two guys (illusion of choice).

Karl Marx stated in Das Kapital about the end result of capitalism is communism - it's about a/b choices - nothing more. When you interject that into the market place of ideas, it's no different.

We were duped along time ago into this.

Were it up to me I would change your tag to read "Everything is true but nothing is real"

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by baja fan

Were it up to me I would change your tag to read "Everything is true but nothing is real"

Explain further if you could. I read many different interpretations into this post Baja, and just would like clarification of intent.

Thanks,

Me.

[baja]

Originally Posted by claviculasolomonis

Explain further if you could. I read many different interpretations into this post Baja, and just would like clarification of intent.

Thanks,

Me.

We live in a collective allusion therefore nothing, as we see it, is real.

Within the illusion everything is true in the eyes of the beholder.

IE there is no wrong and no right just illusion.

What is IS.

[baja]

PS There is no me.

[c_lazy_r]

Originally Posted by baja fan

PS There is no me.