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Old 06-18-2007, 01:34 AM   #1
anthonypacino
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Default Will Jarvis Moss be worth what could have been?

With Denver moving up in the 1st this year to grab Moss, I felt like we dropped the ball for next year. I wanted to do the deal that Dallas made, getting a top 5 and their own 1 next year. That kind of firepower would have allowed Denver to command the draft next year no matter what our season is like this year.

Darren McFadden will be the "Calvin Johnson" of next year's draft, the sure bet can't miss RB. He's more than hype as well, in fact if it wasn't for him ARK would have been in the toilet last year and now with their touted QB bailing on the team he IS the offense.

Glen Dorsey another can't miss DT he wouldv'e been the best DL last year if he had came out early. Huge stuffer in the middle, just like Bates uses. He could be devastating in a rotation with Warren, Thomas.

Vernon Gholston will lead the Big 10 in sacks this season and is a beast, I'm sure he will be a top 10 at worst.

And like many of you I know that tons of these 1st rounders are crap shoots at best and maybe the best thing about doing that deal could've been trading that top pick, or both for tons of picks spread out over the next few years.

So, with all that being said will Moss make the impact that would take away the sting of that once possible deal? If he becomes just a rotational situation guy would drafting Quinn and trading him have been a better option.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:39 AM   #2
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Wasn't it already determined that it would have been impossible for us to make that deal with Dallas?
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:47 AM   #3
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Wasn't it already determined that it would have been impossible for us to make that deal with Dallas?
We moved ahead of Cincy, Tenn, NYG by trading with Jax. We picked before Dallas before the trade to 17 from 21 for Moss. The deal would have been us drafting Quinn and trading him to the Browns for their 1st next year and others.

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Old 06-18-2007, 01:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by anthonypacino View Post
We moved ahead of Cincy, Tenn, NYG by trading with Jax. We picked before Dallas before the trade to 17 from 21 for Moss. The deal would have been us drafting Quinn and trading him to the Browns for their 1st next year and others.
Are you saying we had that opportunity and passed??
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:54 AM   #5
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all i keep hearing is about how crowder is doing so well, moss is gonna have to show something soon or his pick would NOT have been worth it.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:00 AM   #6
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Denver decided to address their needs this year, rather than wait. However, I guess one could say, they could have still addressed their needs with their other selections, instead of trading away their 2007 third, 2008 third, along with three second day choices to land the two Florida lineman.

I know some people are skeptical in regards to if they'll start, but I think the investment the Broncos put in the players shows how much they think of them, and how they think they can contribute this year. I think all three guys can have productive seasons, but I don't want to read the bull**** people will put out of neither of the three start, and have just "average" rookie campaigns.

Denver probably would have done a deal had Moss not been there, however he was one of the three guys they were hoping for, and they did what they had to do to get him.

Sure, having the possibility of two first-rounders would have been nice, but who knows if Dallas' would have been high? You're assuming it. I don't think Dallas will be lights out, but they're not going to be nearly as bad as you think they are.

I think the potential Moss has is unlimited. He's the perfect, protoypical end for Jim Bates to groom. He has some question marks, but who doesn't? Bates' helped make Jason Taylor the player he is today, and had success with Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila as well. He may need a year or so, but Moss has what it takes to be a three-down player in the NFL and can terrorize quarterbacks. He's in a good situation.

Hindsight is 20/20. Who even knows if the rumored deal would have been possible? Next year is an extremely deep class, so having two first-rounders would have been nice. However, I can't fault the Broncos for doing what they thought was in their best interest, getting lineman now.

People were pissed when we never drafted lineman, and people are still pissed that we did, (after seeing our selections) - where I may think there could have been better alternatives, Jim Bates coming to Denver was a sign of big change. Pro-Bowl players were released, positions of players will change and the line has been revamped.

It's about damn time.

Denver has some extra picks coming this next year, if they want that all-star - they can sell the farm to get him. However, I'm perfectly happy with what we did, and I'm not going to bother with the "what could have beens" especially when this next draft hasn't even started, and that Moss, and the other selections haven't played a down.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:01 AM   #7
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All speculation. Are you Mel Kiper telling us how great college players are going to be a year from now?
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:02 AM   #8
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all i keep hearing is about how crowder is doing so well, moss is gonna have to show something soon or his pick would NOT have been worth it.
They don't start hitting until training camp IMO. There is some contact at mini camp but not much. Let's wait until we see the depth chart take shape in august before we judge the rookies.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:08 AM   #9
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whose to say cleveland even approached denver about a trade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonypacino View Post
With Denver moving up in the 1st this year to grab Moss, I felt like we dropped the ball for next year. I wanted to do the deal that Dallas made, getting a top 5 and their own 1 next year. That kind of firepower would have allowed Denver to command the draft next year no matter what our season is like this year.

Darren McFadden will be the "Calvin Johnson" of next year's draft, the sure bet can't miss RB. He's more than hype as well, in fact if it wasn't for him ARK would have been in the toilet last year and now with their touted QB bailing on the team he IS the offense.

Glen Dorsey another can't miss DT he wouldv'e been the best DL last year if he had came out early. Huge stuffer in the middle, just like Bates uses. He could be devastating in a rotation with Warren, Thomas.

Vernon Gholston will lead the Big 10 in sacks this season and is a beast, I'm sure he will be a top 10 at worst.

And like many of you I know that tons of these 1st rounders are crap shoots at best and maybe the best thing about doing that deal could've been trading that top pick, or both for tons of picks spread out over the next few years.

So, with all that being said will Moss make the impact that would take away the sting of that once possible deal? If he becomes just a rotational situation guy would drafting Quinn and trading him have been a better option.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:12 AM   #10
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Ah, you meant Cleveland sending us picks? Heh. Who knows. In that case, we'd have a high pick, but I don't remember them offering us anything.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:48 AM   #11
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The trade was not offered to us. We were at 21, Dallas at 22. After one of our prospects went at 16, Shanny decided to go and get his guy. Cleveland did not start making serious calls until after we had moved up because the cost for 17 or 18 was too high, but the point values fell in line between 21 and 23. There may have been talk that the Browns wanted to get back in the first round, but if nothing was substantiated Shanny did the right thing by not letting Moss get away. What if he sticks around and the deal never goes through? What if Cleveland doesn't want to deal with an AFC team? Then you're stuck with a bad deal to move down or someone you're not crazy about at #21.

Bottom line, I think Shanny made the right call. It beats the "let's stay where we are and draft Willie Middlebrooks" days.

Besides, I find it hard to believe that Shanny would have passed on the Cleveland deal if it were offered to us.
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Old 06-18-2007, 06:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonypacino View Post
With Denver moving up in the 1st this year to grab Moss, I felt like we dropped the ball for next year. I wanted to do the deal that Dallas made, getting a top 5 and their own 1 next year. That kind of firepower would have allowed Denver to command the draft next year no matter what our season is like this year.

Darren McFadden will be the "Calvin Johnson" of next year's draft, the sure bet can't miss RB. He's more than hype as well, in fact if it wasn't for him ARK would have been in the toilet last year and now with their touted QB bailing on the team he IS the offense.

Glen Dorsey another can't miss DT he wouldv'e been the best DL last year if he had came out early. Huge stuffer in the middle, just like Bates uses. He could be devastating in a rotation with Warren, Thomas.

Vernon Gholston will lead the Big 10 in sacks this season and is a beast, I'm sure he will be a top 10 at worst.

And like many of you I know that tons of these 1st rounders are crap shoots at best and maybe the best thing about doing that deal could've been trading that top pick, or both for tons of picks spread out over the next few years.

So, with all that being said will Moss make the impact that would take away the sting of that once possible deal? If he becomes just a rotational situation guy would drafting Quinn and trading him have been a better option.
What could have been?

No, he won't.

But then Denver threw thier whole draft this year and some of next year at just 4 players. So they weren't really looking for value anyway.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:16 AM   #13
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Quote:
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whose to say cleveland even approached denver about a trade?
Whoa, take a step back there. Cleveland had to have made that offer, if not, we wouldn't be discussing the same topic for the 12th time since the draft.

FWIW, I read over at CP when they were all asking what they would have done if KC had been been offered the deal, someone claime that Cleveland was not offering AFC teams the same deal. They were not willing to give their '08 1st to a conference opponent.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:37 AM   #14
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Whoa, take a step back there. Cleveland had to have made that offer, if not, we wouldn't be discussing the same topic for the 12th time since the draft.

FWIW, I read over at CP when they were all asking what they would have done if KC had been been offered the deal, someone claime that Cleveland was not offering AFC teams the same deal. They were not willing to give their '08 1st to a conference opponent.
Why wouldn't they trade to another AFC team? That doesn't make sense. Maybe another team in thier division, but surely not the entire AFC.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:40 AM   #15
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What could have been?

No, he won't.

But then Denver threw thier whole draft this year and some of next year at just 4 players. So they weren't really looking for value anyway.
Or they were looking for the value they got in the four players. Shanahan already stated from what was available in the positions they needed to fill there wasn't any point in drafting players who wouldn't make the team anyway.

It's a little soon to say that philosophy equals throwing away both this year and next year's draft. Unless you are the KC fan version of Ms Cleo.

As for this topic it was beat to death after the draft.

The trade Dallas did wasn't available to Denver. Get over it.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:52 AM   #16
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Or they were looking for the value they got in the four players. Shanahan already stated from what was available in the positions they needed to fill there wasn't any point in drafting players who wouldn't make the team anyway.

It's a little soon to say that philosophy equals throwing away both this year and next year's draft. Unless you are the KC fan version of Ms Cleo.

As for this topic it was beat to death after the draft.

The trade Dallas did wasn't available to Denver. Get over it.
To assume I have a problem with with Denver throwing 9 picks at 4 players is self serving at best.

Who is your inside source that says Denver would not have recieved the same offer had they not traded thier draft away? Just curious.

Finally, I am not the one who started the thread. I am simply one who responded to it. Much like yourself.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:00 AM   #17
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To assume I have a problem with with Denver throwing 9 picks at 4 players is self serving at best.

Who is your inside source that says Denver would not have recieved the same offer had they not traded thier draft away? Just curious.

Finally, I am not the one who started the thread. I am simply one who responded to it. Much like yourself.

This discussion has been well documented. If you want to see my take on it, go back and find it.

Nobody said you started a thread. Just your usual trolling with a response you can't back up at this time.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonypacino View Post
With Denver moving up in the 1st this year to grab Moss, I felt like we dropped the ball for next year. I wanted to do the deal that Dallas made, getting a top 5 and their own 1 next year. That kind of firepower would have allowed Denver to command the draft next year no matter what our season is like this year.. . . . . ..
Next year will have to take care of itself. Moss was one of the prospects they wanted, they got him, now we'll just have to wait and see how it pans out.

If you want to speculate about what could have been, that's fine with me. It's possible something could have been arranged, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush I guess was the thinking at that time. The BBT may have panicked a bit, which is what I thought at the time. I thought Moss would have been available at 21 at the time the tradeup was made.

I don't mind judicious trading up in round one. I'm a little wary of trading down or trading out. It doesn't seem to work out all that well.

BTW, how's Swink working out for you? What do you think about this Pinon Canyon deal?
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:16 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by anthonypacino View Post
With Denver moving up in the 1st this year to grab Moss, I felt like we dropped the ball for next year. I wanted to do the deal that Dallas made, getting a top 5 and their own 1 next year. That kind of firepower would have allowed Denver to command the draft next year no matter what our season is like this year.

So, with all that being said will Moss make the impact that would take away the sting of that once possible deal? If he becomes just a rotational situation guy would drafting Quinn and trading him have been a better option.
Funny, Cincy was in the division so I could see them not getting the offer, but the Giants, Titans, and Jags aren't (hell, two of them are in the NFC) and not a one of them took the supposed deal we could've made, not to mention we traded up directly after Green Bay was on the clock, before Cleveland was probably even considering making a move.

Its revisionist history. Unless you were in Cleveland's war room you don't even know if it was remotely possible. Most indications though seem to point towards them targeting KC as the next team that might take a QB and intentionally leap frogging them. That makes Dallas the ideal spot.

The question you're asking is basically would I have preferred Shanahan to sit on his hands hoping for a steal to fall in his lap, literally an hour and a half and five picks before this steal was possible, or do I like that he was aggressive when two of the three players we wanted were off the board earlier than expected and he made sure we brought home at least one of them?

I'll take the later. Its better to be proactive and get what you need instead of sitting on your hands praying for value regardless of its usefulness to you in round one. The best teams find a way to get value at need positions in the first, be that moving up, down, or where ever.

Also, after the draft Shanahan and Sundquist both said we had deals in place to move up for TWO first round picks if two of Timmons, Harrell, or Moss were available at 21. One such team we'd been in talks with was Dallas. Kinda implies Dallas made it clear their pick was up for trade before the draft even started, so unless you think the Cleveland staff is completely brainless they knew exactly where they could go for a deal.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:24 AM   #20
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Whether we should have made the trade or not, there was an article on Si.com after the draft that detailed the Browns attempts to move up to get Quinn which documents that they called everyone starting round pick 14 on down to see if they could get up and take Quinn. So I don't think there should be any question on whether we could have had a deal like Dallas' or not. We definately could have...
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:27 AM   #21
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This discussion has been well documented. If you want to see my take on it, go back and find it.

Nobody said you started a thread. Just your usual trolling with a response you can't back up at this time.
Who says I wanted to know your take? I asked for a credible source. My response was reasonable. It was an opinion. Your response was more for rep points than to state an actual opinion. Ms. Cleo told me so.

Last edited by crazyhorse; 06-18-2007 at 09:30 AM..
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:32 AM   #22
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Can we wait a year or two to judge this year's draft? That is the standard practice. Actually, I feel we will be really judging last year's class this year (Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Hixon, and in a funny way Walker).

1) The team stated clearly there were not many guys they thought would make the team, so they were going to package picks to move up. This made really good sense for the team.

2) It looks like we kicked ass in free agency, and we got most of the peices we needed there.

3) At the end of last season, we all were screaming for D-line help, which the team got.

Let's chill on this one, I think you will be more excited when training camp begins. These guys will find their spot, but it will not be given to them. Now, they have to compete against some more talented competition (after FA).

The Chiefs fan (Crazyhorse) is rightly pissed because his team did very little to solidify their future this year, they will be handing off their offense to Brodie Croyle, and they are about to mortgage their future on Larry Johnson. I would be a little pissed if I was a Chiefs fan, it's just not going to be their year.
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:36 AM   #23
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If Moss, Crowder and Thomas make an impact in our ability to force a pass rush and get the defense off the field on 3rd down, then the picks were worth it. Wondering if Cleveland would have traded with us to maybe move back into the first round for the 21st pick is speculating on something we have no real information on. As far as we know, they contacted the cowboys only, and Dallas accepted the offer. If the players cleveland drafted flop, them moving around up and down the draft board like retarded chickens wont matter.


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Old 06-18-2007, 09:38 AM   #24
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BTW - Jarvis Moss is now a Bronco, its time to back him and not second guess. There are always what ifs, but now he wears the blue and orange. I don't know if i'm going to rush out and buy a Moss jersey yet, but he's our guy now, let's support him.
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:18 AM   #25
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Have our daft picks even had their contracts done yet? You can't really see what a guy is made of until you get that done. I'm not saying they would dog it but let's just say that until I have signed on the dotted line, my arse is not going full tilt and risking injury until I sign my deal. So let's not judge where they are until they are signed and some hitting starts.
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