Israels partners in peace......

[Hotrod]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Created in 1987 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin of the Gaza wing of the Muslim Brotherhood at the beginning of the First Intifada, Hamas is best known outside the Palestinian territories for its suicide bombings[2] and other attacks directed against Israeli civilians, as well as military and security forces targets. Hamas' charter (written in 1988 and still in effect) calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[3][4][5] Vehemently anti-Israel and, according to many, anti-Semitic[6] its charter states: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad."[7]

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Other examples in the Hamas Covenant include

Introduction: Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and God's victory is realised.

Article 7: ... the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of God's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, God bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O slaves of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharqad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

In April 2007, Palestinian Media Watch released a video in which "Dr. Ahmad Bahar, acting speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council," refers to Israel's Jewish citizens as a "cancerous lump" and prays to Allah to "count them and kill them to the last one, and don't leave even one."[44]

In an article published on April 23, 2007 in the Hamas paper Al-Risalah, its author Kan'an Ubayd stated: "... the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds on a land, to which Allah gave his blessing for the sake of the inhabitants of the worlds.”[45]

[Hotrod]

same link

Suicide attacks
Hamas' first use of suicide bombing occurred on April 16, 1993 when a suicide bomber driving an explosive-laden van detonated between two buses parked at a restaurant. It was Hamas' 19th known attack since 1989 (the others being shootings, kidnappings and knife attacks).[57]

Hamas continued to launch suicide attacks during the Oslo Accords period (see List of Hamas suicide attacks).

[bendog]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10976570

I heard this yesterday. I thought it was interesting. His criticism of Condi wasn't that she wasn't doing enough, which is what I'd expect him to say. Rather, he said that the current situation is so bleak that even talking about "road map" stuff just weakened us further, because peace negotiations are currently not even close to possible, and when we set unreachable policy goals we just humiliate ourselves in the eyes of the world.

But he did have some interesting ideas about dealing with Syria and Syrias support for hamas and esp hezbollah.

[mhgaffney]

Here's why I have no sympathy.

The Israelis nurtured HAMAS back in the 80s and 90s to undermine Arafat's influence. In the end Israel's efforts succeeded in destroying any chance for a deal with the PLO

And so now they are left to deal with the monster they helped to create.

Too bad for them.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

Here's why I have no sympathy.

The Israelis nurtured HAMAS back in the 80s and 90s to undermine Arafat's influence. In the end Israel's efforts succeeded in destroying any chance for a deal with the PLO

And so now they are left to deal with the monster they helped to create.

Too bad for them.

if only I had made it to this thread earlier, I would have easily predicted ghaff would blame the jews. but alas, my tardiness has robbed from the low hanging prophetic fruit.

[bcbronc]

Originally Posted by yavoon

if only I had made it to this thread earlier, I would have easily predicted ghaff would blame the jews. but alas, my tardiness has robbed from the low hanging prophetic fruit.

criticizing Israeli foreign policy has nothing to do with "blaming the jews".

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by bcbronc

criticizing Israeli foreign policy has nothing to do with "blaming the jews".

yes, obviously w/ ghaff's there is historical precedent for my comment and I am not speaking out of pure isolation in the present thread.

[bcbronc]

Originally Posted by yavoon

yes, obviously w/ ghaff's there is historical precedent for my comment and I am not speaking out of pure isolation in the present thread.

fair enough.

[Rigs11]

Originally Posted by yavoon

if only I had made it to this thread earlier, I would have easily predicted ghaff would blame the jews. but alas, my tardiness has robbed from the low hanging prophetic fruit.

Instead of simply calling him a jew blamer why don't you refute what he wrote.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Rigs11

Instead of simply calling him a jew blamer why don't you refute what he wrote.

first of all, I dont really dive in the ghaff's pool, thats for braver men than me. but at some point one might imagine that u can figure out ghaffs narrative, and the constant refutation of the minutae becomes background noise to the opus.

[Hotrod]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

Here's why I have no sympathy.

.

Because you hate Israel and your Muslim friends are just poor misunderstood peace loving hippys

[bendog]

I dunno about hate. He's a loon much of the time, but he is half-correct on this. When the bottom line came with Barak and Clinton, and Arafat saw the best deal they'd ever get required him to tell them there was no right of return, Arafat knew he couldn't sell the deal. Hamas would have pilloried him and prolly killed him. BUT, gaff fails to acknowledge that Arafat himself never tried to prepare a path for peace, and PA schools were still teaching that the pales would get their farms in Israel back.

Now, polls show something like 60-70% of the pales want a two state solution, and hamas is popular only because of little corruption and actually delivering social services, but their policy of unending war is not popular.

Both sides are held hostage by a minority of violent sociopaths.

[mhgaffney]

I've stated my views many times on this board about Israel and US Mideast policy.

If you want the details you are more than welcome to check out my 1989 book about Israel's nuclear weapons program. It's still a good read and has a lot of historical background. The book is out of print but used copies are available via amazon -- and no I do not reap any proceeds or royalties. Like many authors I never made a dime.

http://www.gnosticsecrets.com/pages/dimona.htm

or you can peruse my articles on the subject. The links are posted on my web site.

http://www.gnosticsecrets.com/pages/links.htm

Everyone is welcome -- even Yavoon -- who doesn't kow **** from shinola about Judaism or Israel or anything else.

[mhgaffney]

BTW what is happening in Gaza at the moment is a great tragedy for the Palestinians -- but it serves Israel's perceived interests.

Israel's policy has always been to sow division. Divide and conquer.

[bcbronc]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

BTW what is happening in Gaza at the moment is a great tragedy for the Palestinians -- but it serves Israel's perceived interests.

Israel's policy has always been to sow division. Divide and conquer.

I'm not sure the current situation in Gaza does serve Israels interests. hizbollah still has weapons, and if the Hamas situation spills over the border into Israel enough to garner a response, who knows what Hizbollah would do. they very well might look to try to start a two-front confrontation. Iran might be a-ok with that as well. considering the political fall-out in Israel over how the Lebanese war was run, I think Israel would be just as happy if Palestine cooled the fk out for a bit.

[bendog]

imo, it's an oversimplification (by Gaff) to state what Israel's "percieved interests" are. Israel, just like the Pales, Syria and Iran, not to mention Lebanon, is constituted of different groups differing percieved interests. I think he's talking about Likudnick's percieved interests, and he may be right there with guys like Netanyahoo, but yeah you gotta be right that Olmert and Barak have nothing to gain from the chaos in Gaza, and they have to hope the WB remains calm, or calm for the WB.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by bendog

imo, it's an oversimplification (by Gaff) to state what Israel's "percieved interests" are. Israel, just like the Pales, Syria and Iran, not to mention Lebanon, is constituted of different groups differing percieved interests. I think he's talking about Likudnick's percieved interests, and he may be right there with guys like Netanyahoo, but yeah you gotta be right that Olmert and Barak have nothing to gain from the chaos in Gaza, and they have to hope the WB remains calm, or calm for the WB.

harder for crap to happen in WB cuz the WB is still occupied. checkpoints all over the damn place. and I think if anyone tried to lay siege to fatah israel might disperse them. course who the hell really knows.