The Immigration Thread

[Rohirrim]

I noticed that discussions on the new immigration bill were seeping into other threads. It seems to me that it's a big enough issue to get its own thread. IMO, this is just another bait and switch from Washington. The 20 million illegals in this country are not following our immigration laws so Washington tells them, "That's okay. You no longer have to follow those laws. We've created a whole new batch of laws for you to ignore." BTW, just as a practical question, how many illegals even know how to read? There is also a poison pill hidden in this one. There are time limits for how long the illegal can stay in this country before he can register for citizenship, except that the "administration" can waive that time limit at any time.

This is nothing more than another Simpson/Mazzoli bill (c. 1986) with a new wrapper. We all know how that one turned out. There were lots of speeches and photo ops and "get tough" language (led by Kennedy) and in the end, the millions of illegals in the country got a free pass. Congress blew a couple of million dollars creating this new bill, which they won't enforce, instead of using that money to enforce existing laws, which they keep telling us, "Don't work." Did it ever occur to them that if they provided the funding, and the border control officers, required to enforce existing laws that they might work? They keep saying, "The system is broken." Guess what? You never funded it! You never enforced it! Maybe that's why it's broken? D'oh! (head slap)

[TailgateNut]

Regardless of the wording of the proposal, it nothing short of amnesty. A get out of jail card. These people have broken the law, and we in turn will reward them with a "path" to citizenship. Those who have waited years to pursue the legal path to citizenship should be PISSED.

Sure there a "so called fines" involved, but how much money have these "criminals" made by claiming excempt status on their taxes, which in most cases were filed using another persons SSN. That alone is enough to make me see red. Just think if you were one of those people who had their SSN stolen. You are the one who gets ****ed in the process. You are the one who has to spend the time and money getting yourself out of the mess created by these "criminals".

If a citizen were to "steal" the identity of someone else in order to defraud the goverment, he'd be sitting in jail, and I believe the fines would be substantially higher than $5k.

This is a BS proposal, and I urge everyone to put a bug in your representatives ear.

[ant1999e]

Fix the leak before you bail out the water. It's common ****ing sense.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by ant1999e

Fix the leak before you bail out the water. It's common ****ing sense.

What does that mean?

[clarkster]

it means close the borders before we start getting rid of illegals i presume.

if you look at it closely and start breaking down what it costs the tax payer to house, feed, educate, and ultimately take care of the illegal alien, its infuriating. and they think they deserve it which really kind of bothers me.

[Rohirrim]

Meanwhile, Mexico is going insane. I was listening on NPR this AM. Mexico is now the second most dangerous country in the world for reporters, behind only Iraq. I don't know if many Americans are aware of this, but drug gangs in Mexico have basically declared war on the government. Their favorite tactic is decapitation. Last year, 26 heads were found, usually with notes attached, some even booby trapped. They carry out all-out automatic weapon attacks on government officials, security forces and police - and their families. The lawlessness in Mexico is reaching epidemic levels. Why we don't have the friggin Marine Corps along our border is beyond me. Oh yeah, they're in Iraq.

[clarkster]

man i remember the good old days when the worst thing that would happen in mexico was an STD and the ****s.

[bendog]

I don't think there's any possible scenario that doesn't include some type of amnesty. How does anyone think we could deport 12-15 million people? Moreover, as a society we've encouraged illegal immigration. We could have been fining employers. We have laws that allow government contracts to be let to firms not paying prevailing wages.

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by bendog

I don't think there's any possible scenario that doesn't include some type of amnesty. How does anyone think we could deport 12-15 million people? Moreover, as a society we've encouraged illegal immigration. We could have been fining employers. We have laws that allow government contracts to be let to firms not paying prevailing wages.

I always figured we could set up conditions that make it impossible to work here and they go just the way they came.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

I always figured we could set up conditions that make it impossible to work here and they go just the way they came.

That's all that's needed is a deterrent. There isn't any at all now.

------------------------------------------------------------
Human smugglers launch 'coyote express' into US
by Ken Dermota

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US officials deploying men, money and machines on Mexico's side of the border take note: undaunted human smugglers now offer illegal immigrants an "express" service into the United States.

Thousands of people have endured the two-day, non-stop exhausting desert trek by foot around border checkpoints to reach the United States every year, according to government statistics.

But now for an extra 2,000 dollars, human smugglers dubbed "coyotes" will sneak immigrants across the border in cars and trucks right under the noses of US agents, and then put them on a plane to the most favored destination, Washington.

Despite
President George W. Bush's best efforts to seal the porous frontier, with plans for a controversial two-billion-dollar, 1,100-kilometer (700-mile) border fence, the influx of immigrants has barely slowed.

"Show me a 10-foot wall," Border Patrol union vice president Rich Pierce told AFP. "And I'll show you an 11-foot ladder."

The extra security and the 6,000 National Guard troops Bush has deployed along the border has raised the cost of the trip though.

Guatemalan immigrant Maria L. was one of those who decided the higher premium was worth it to avoid having to make the hazardous trip by foot.

The coyotes gave Maria, and her cousin Marisol, who asked to remain anonymous, falsified US identification cards and settled them in a safe house in Mexico to wait several days -- for rain.

"On rainy days, immigration does not inspect every truck," Marisol said she was told by the coyotes, although Pierce denied this, saying the 11,000 members of his union inspect vehicles "every day rain or shine."

When the rains came, the cousins, both 20, were wedged into the back of a van, which had an apparently legal driver, and they slipped across the border undetected.
CONT.

[Rohirrim]

People don't realize what's coming down the road. They need only take a look at Quebec to get an idea. L.A. already has a mayor with marginally separatist views. It's only a matter of time before those who are marching now for "illegal rights" will be marching for a North American Union and enforced bilingualism. Not to mention, the overpopulation. IMO, California is already lost. Its systems are collapsing. Romer gave it all he had to try and save the schools, but he just couldn't do it. We can only stand by and watch as one of the most beautiful states in America gets swept into the toilet.

[atomicbloke]

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

Regardless of the wording of the proposal, it nothing short of amnesty. A get out of jail card. These people have broken the law, and we in turn will reward them with a "path" to citizenship. Those who have waited years to pursue the legal path to citizenship should be PISSED.

Sure there a "so called fines" involved, but how much money have these "criminals" made by claiming excempt status on their taxes, which in most cases were filed using another persons SSN. That alone is enough to make me see red. Just think if you were one of those people who had their SSN stolen. You are the one who gets ****ed in the process. You are the one who has to spend the time and money getting yourself out of the mess created by these "criminals".

If a citizen were to "steal" the identity of someone else in order to defraud the goverment, he'd be sitting in jail, and I believe the fines would be substantially higher than $5k.

This is a BS proposal, and I urge everyone to put a bug in your representatives ear.

Apparently, things are going to become more difficult for legal immigrants. Already some rules for them are ridiculously difficult.

In other words, scientists, professors, doctors, engineers, lawyers and other high skilled workers have to wait 10 years to become citizens, and in those 10 years, their families can't even visit them.

But everyone who jumped the border will soon be made citizens along with their families and anchor babies.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by atomicbloke

Apparently, things are going to become more difficult for legal immigrants. Already some rules for them are ridiculously difficult.
In other words, scientists, professors, doctors, engineers, lawyers and other high skilled workers have to wait 10 years to become citizens, and in those 10 years, their families can't even visit them.
But everyone who jumped the border will soon be made citizens along with their families and anchor babies.

Mexicans fear U.S. immigration plan
By TRACI CARL, Associated Press Writer

MONTERREY, Mexico - Congress' new immigration plan was bad news for tens of thousands of poor Mexicans who depend on a U.S. guestworker program for temporary jobs in agriculture and other seasonal work, such as landscaping and construction.

Millions of would-be migrants have been holding tight to
President Bush's promise that they could one day apply for temporary visas to get a glimpse of the American dream.

At the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey, which hands out more temporary visas than any other consulate or embassy in the world, Edmundo Bermudez, a 36-year-old from the northern city of Durango, said the plan rewards those who have already entered the United States illegally, while shutting out those who stayed home hoping to gain legal passage.

He was especially offended by the plan to give preference to migrants with degrees and skills.

"The United States already has enough people with college degrees. Who is going to cut their tobacco?" asked Bermudez, who has been working intermittently in the U.S. for the past eight years. In Mexico, he makes about $10 a day, while in the U.S. he earns almost that — $8 — in an hour.

The proposal, unveiled Thursday in Washington, is devoid of Bush's original plan to grant three-year visas to migrants living in their native countries. Instead, it focuses on securing the border and giving illegal residents a path toward legal residency, while gradually giving preference for new visas to those with advanced degrees and highly specialized skills.

Many in Mexico — and U.S. employers who say they need workers for low-skilled jobs — had hoped Congress would expand the guestworker program and allow more to cross legally, work a few months and then return home with their savings to build homes and businesses.

Gilberto Escalante, a 41-year-old fisherman from Topolobampo in Sinaloa state, said the current temporary visa program is better than the congressional plan because it gives Mexicans the option to freely enter and leave the U.S. while maintaining their lives in Mexico — instead of forcing them to choose between the two countries.

"We don't want the house or the latest car in the U.S. We want to go and work so that our families can have a good life in Mexico," said Escalante, who came to the industrial hub of Monterrey to apply for a visa to work on fish and shrimp boats off the coast of Mississippi.

Yet the congressional plan came as welcome news to the millions of Mexicans who depend on the $23 billion sent home each year by Mexicans living in the U.S., many illegally.

The proposal would allow illegal immigrants to obtain a "Z visa" and, after paying fees and a $5,000 fine, ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of households would have to return to their home countries first.

It is also good news for the Mexican government, which has spent years lobbying the U.S. for a comprehensive immigration reform that allows more people to work legally in the U.S. Many had feared the U.S. would only approve more border security measures, such as adding to National Guard troops at the border and other high-tech security measures.

[bendog]

Well, the basic problem is we need the workers. So, even assuming there was a way to get rid of the ones here now, we'd need replacements. Moreover, the laws a joke. Every person in congress for the past 30 years has known we tacitly encourage illegal immigration.

[ant1999e]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

What does that mean?

Secure the borders first. Whether it's amnesty or deportation, if we don't secure the border, they will just come back. Just a waste of time.

[Rohirrim]

It's amazing to me that in every poll taken, the overwhelming majority of Americans want the border sealed up, even if it takes the Marine Corps to do it, and yet, Washington just ignores them. Of course, they're ignoring us about everything else too. Take Iraq, for example. Did you ever think our representative government might not be so representative.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by bendog

Well, the basic problem is we need the workers. So, even assuming there was a way to get rid of the ones here now, we'd need replacements. Moreover, the laws a joke. Every person in congress for the past 30 years has known we tacitly encourage illegal immigration.

no we dont, and this is stupid. funny how everytime supply and demand might actually favor the common man everyone goes bat****, makes a person reconsider who are and who aren't the fascists. but of course u makeup for that by screaming for min wage increases right?

[NYBronco]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Meanwhile, Mexico is going insane. I was listening on NPR this AM. Mexico is now the second most dangerous country in the world for reporters, behind only Iraq. I don't know if many Americans are aware of this, but drug gangs in Mexico have basically declared war on the government. Their favorite tactic is decapitation. Last year, 26 heads were found, usually with notes attached, some even booby trapped. They carry out all-out automatic weapon attacks on government officials, security forces and police - and their families. The lawlessness in Mexico is reaching epidemic levels. Why we don't have the friggin Marine Corps along our border is beyond me. Oh yeah, they're in Iraq.

Another reason why they are leaving their waste land of a country for ours.

[RMT]

The GOP is covering for coporate America (who want low-wage workers) and the Democrats want amnesty for the millions of new potential voters they can garner to overcome the GOP. It's a shame that our government represents self-interests before the interests of those who elected them in the first place. Our representatives are a bunch of traitors and are betraying the work of our forefathers.

[NYBronco]

Originally Posted by RMT

The GOP is covering for coporate America (who want low-wage workers) and the Democrats want amnesty for the millions of new potential voters they can garner to overcome the GOP. It's a shame that our government represents self-interests before the interests of those who elected them in the first place. Our representatives a bunch of traitors and are betraying the work of our forefathers.

Our capitalistic / lobbyest government has slowly reduced the power and influence of the American union labor. The uncontrolled immigration is one of their greatest means to destroy the labor unions.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by NYBronco

Our capitalistic / lobbyest government has slowly reduced the power and influence of the American union labor. The uncontrolled immigration is one of their greatest means to destroy the labor unions.

in that sense I like immigration! dont be making me like immigration damnit!

=[

[RkyMtnThunder]

I dont like this new deal.

As someone said 'seal the leak and bail out the water'

well, IMO the leak may be sealed - but the bailing? Easier said than done.


So any illegal already on our soil will have the opportunity to become a citizen. Groovy. Oh, it costs $5,000?

So um, how or better yet...why are they going to come up with this money when they have grown so accustomed to abusing the services America may offer?

I can see it now - the outstanding amount of 'new citizens' who indefinately owe the Treasury $5k while feeling even more empowered to file for welfare and other services

I can see a dramatic influx of border jumpers trying to get across in time for them to benefit from this glorified amnesty bill.

What I dont see is a majority of these people actually playing by the rules. They havent before, what makes anyone think they will now?

And enforcing these rules? HA. If we have been more diligent about enforcing existing laws, especially on American companies/small business who employ illegals - we wouldnt have this problem in the first place.

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is an issue that the people can gnash and scream about, but it will never be addressed in a way that solves the problem.

The US Govt would have to get serious about enforcing harsh penalties on the employers who provide the reason for illegals to be here. The govt could fix the problem that way, but I seriously doubt that this will ever happen because of the benefit that those employers provide to their communities and their fellow businesses. Not only that, but there are lobby groups that represent several large industries.

The trick here will be finding a way to halt the flow of traffic at the border while simultaneously Americanizing the people here.

[RMT]

Out glutenous nature doesn't help either - if we would scale back our consumption of stuff, there would be less of a need for goods and services and, thus, less of a need for migrant (illegal) workers.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by RMT

Out glutenous nature doesn't help either - if we would scale back our consumption of stuff, there would be less of a need for goods and services and, thus, less of a need for migrant (illegal) workers.

there is no need for migrant illegal workers. there is a market for cheap labor, which is sort of obvious. but there is no need.