Where does Elvis play?

[footstepsfrom#27]

...if we draft a pass rushing defensive end with our top pick?

I have this rated behind OT and DT...maybe MLB as well, but the prevailing opinon in here seems to be that we ought to take another pass rushing DE. That probably means somebody to play the right side rather than a run stopper on the left like Carriker...but we've already got a guy that seems perfect for Bates system there in Elvis. Even if he's just a 3rd down guy...how does this work? If we're drafting a guy who's a true three down player, what happens to Elvis? Does he switch to the left side on 3rd down then? The guy's about 7 pound smaller than Gaines Adams and I'm pretty sure he's a stronger player.

Why draft another pass rushing DE when we have one doing that job now? The only way I can see that working is if we're taking Jamal Anderson, who can play the left side and stop the run as well as rush the passer from that spot.

[SoCalBronco]

A rotation end like last year.

[listopencil]

If we draft one he's going to have to beat out Elvis. Also, he would be in a rotation to start with but you can use two pass rushing ends and Warren in the Nickle package.

[SonOfLe-loLang]

I've also thought about this as I havent heard Bates wax poetically about his plans for Elvis. I still would like a larger end in the draft (Carriker, Anderson) to anchor the line much like Courtney Brown did two years ago. I got real sick of watching out line get pushed around.

[chaz]

yup, agree with everyone else that we need a bigger DE to play run and pass. possibilities are carriker, anderson, johnson, and abiamiri off the top of my head that impressed me.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

A rotation end like last year.

SoCal...Elvis mostly came in on third down last year as a situational guy to rush the passer...why would we draft a guy to rush the passer, and start him at RDE, then take him out of the game on 3rd down for Elvis?

I think the LDE spot is probably a higher priority if we're looking for a guy who's an every down player. Otherwise aren't we mainly duplicating what we already have?

Also...SoCal...weren't you the one who posted the thread on Bate's defense and how it worked in Dallas? If so I'd like you to repeat what the linebacker's assignments are...especially the MLB please.

[listopencil]

It's been posted over and over but this is why I think we need a DT more than a DE. I understand that this might not be the draft where we can get one because next year is deeper, but I wish we could at least get a FA stop gap for 2-3 years.

[watermock]

Let's get that 370 pound behemoth to simply be a giant fire hydrant.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by listopencil

It's been posted over and over but this is why I think we need a DT more than a DE. I understand that this might not be the draft where we can get one because next year is deeper, but I wish we could at least get a FA stop gap for 2-3 years.

I gotta believe there's somthing still in the works...Grady Jackson maybe...but you're right. DT is the thinner position.

[Bob's your Information Minister]

Elvis will start at weakside defensive end and make his first Pro Bowl.

[SoCalBronco]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

SoCal...Elvis mostly came in on third down last year as a situational guy to rush the passer...why would we draft a guy to rush the passer, and start him at RDE, then take him out of the game on 3rd down for Elvis?

I think the LDE spot is probably a higher priority if we're looking for a guy who's an every down player. Otherwise aren't we mainly duplicating what we already have?

Also...SoCal...weren't you the one who posted the thread on Bate's defense and how it worked in Dallas? If so I'd like you to repeat what the linebacker's assignments are...especially the MLB please.

I think you may have me confused with someone else, I don't recall posting a thread on his defense during his days in the 90s as Asst. HC/DC with Dallas. It seems, generally though, from his (and his staff's) comments recently and from his days most recently with Miami and Green Bay that the DL play, at least so far as the DTs are concerned will be remarkably similar to 2002, where we had essentially two run stuffing space eaters, whose objective, primarily would be to overwhelm the G-C-C triangle. I wouldn't expect much if any pass rush from that position. Bates and his staff have recently noted that their system provides alot of playmaking ability (at least as far as tackles go) for the MLB (I believe the number he tossed around in a recent article was something astronomical like 150-210 tackles) and the WLB (130ish). I think those averages/expectations are artificially high, aided by Zach Thomas's natural ability. Now, generally those two LBs will have a playmaking role in any 4-3 defense, but it seems especially true here. There will also be, from his comments, less stunting, looping and generally moving around the LOS by the DL. As far as coverages go, just generally speaking, I have heard he tends to prefer more man coverage schemes, but I don't really know anything specific about what types of man coverage he likes.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

I think you may have me confused with someone else, I don't recall posting a thread on his defense during his days in the 90s as Asst. HC/DC with Dallas. It seems, generally though, from his (and his staff's) comments recently and from his days most recently with Miami and Green Bay that the DL play, at least so far as the DTs are concerned will be remarkably similar to 2002, where we had essentially two run stuffing space eaters, whose objective, primarily would be to overwhelm the G-C-C triangle. I wouldn't expect much if any pass rush from that position. Bates and his staff have recently noted that their system provides alot of playmaking ability (at least as far as tackles go) for the MLB (I believe the number he tossed around in a recent article was something astronomical like 150-210 tackles) and the WLB (130ish). I think those averages/expectations are artificially high, aided by Zach Thomas's natural ability. Now, generally those two LBs will have a playmaking role in any 4-3 defense, but it seems especially true here. There will also be, from his comments, less stunting, looping and generally moving around the LOS by the DL. As far as coverages go, just generally speaking, I have heard he tends to prefer more man coverage schemes, but I don't really know anything specific about what types of man coverage he likes.

Somebody posted a great thread about Bate's defense and it's use in Jimmy Johnson's Superbowl teams, as well as the respoinsibilities for run support from the safeties and the WSLB.

Anyway...what kind of coverage responsibilities does the MLB have in Bates system if you know?

[SureShot]

I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed if Elvis starts this year. He fits Bates' system perfectly. A speed edge rusher with long arms and quick hands.

Why draft the likes of Moss or Spencer when Elvis is a better football player?

[SoCalBronco]

Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27

Somebody posted a great thread about Bate's defense and it's use in Jimmy Johnson's Superbowl teams, as well as the respoinsibilities for run support from the safeties and the WSLB.

Anyway...what kind of coverage responsibilities does the MLB have in Bates system if you know?

As always, the coverage responsibility of the MLB varies with the coverage chosen. As I noted above, from some things I have heard (second hand), he sometimes prefers man, I don't know if that's accurate, but something you mentioned is a big indicator if its true. If his defense is truly patterned after Jimmy Johnson's (I'd love to get confirmation if you could find something connecting him to JJ's scheme), then we will be seeing alot of Quarters coverage (a.k.a Cover 4). That was a Johnson favorite at Dallas and at the University of Miami before that. This is a matchup zone coverage where responsibilities vary based on the stems of the inside recievers (slot and/or TE) i.e. #2 recievers (the 2nd reciever from the sideline, the first would be the closest reciever to that respective sideline).

Both the corners and safeties are reading #2 to #1. The depth of the corner can vary, but it is usually at 5-7 yards and with a slight outside shade on the #1 reciever (widest) on that side. After recognizing pass, they read #2, is he running a vertical pattern or not? If so, the corner must immediately realize that he has no safety support and must slide from covering the #1s outside routes to an inside position. If #2 does not go vertical, the corner stays with the outside technique, guarding outside breaking routes such as outs and comebacks, since he knows the safety will be bracketting inside breaking routes such as digs, posts and curls.

The safeties also read #2. If he is vertical, they play him M-M with an inside technique. If not, they double #1, being responsible for inside breaking routes.

The OLB's play flat coverage, the MLB plays hook coverage (this is the area right above the center) and is responsible for collisioning any crossers.

Here is an illustration of quarters:


Safeties see no. 2 go flat (and know LBs are going with them), so they bracket the post routes by no.1.

[chrisp]

I'm inclined to believe rumours I've been hearing that the Broncos are more interested in the 280-290lb ends like Carriker or Anderson than they are in the pass-rush specialists like Moss or Adams. The latter guys are only going to see action on 3rd down their first year even if they do develop into every-down guys further down the line, and as someone has already pointed out we already have one of those guys.

I think that Elvis faces a battle in camp to prove he can hold up against the run whatever happens, but drafting a big DE will help his cause.

I'm sure than if we do get a big DE, he will move inside on passing downs to bring rush specialists on to the field.

I'm also in agreement with those that suggest a DT is an as big if not bigger priority than DE - solid tackle play will free up the DEs more anyway

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by listopencil

It's been posted over and over but this is why I think we need a DT more than a DE. I understand that this might not be the draft where we can get one because next year is deeper, but I wish we could at least get a FA stop gap for 2-3 years.

This is not spectacular like pulling Willis or up jumped Calvin Johnson. The press will pan our team's draft. The fans will be disappointed. This is probably as smart a play as there is.

If we pull a starting DT, DE, and some depth from all our picks it was a win. Drafting ain't easy.

[That One Guy]

I think we've got all the pure pass rushers that we need. Lang was a 1st rounder but he just isn't a run stuffing stud. I'd say we see someone in the 270+ range that can stand up a bit better against the run but can get upfield as well. As others have said, I think we're trying to replace Brown this time around.

[chrisp]

Originally Posted by quiettiger

This is not spectacular like pulling Willis or up jumped Calvin Johnson. The press will pan our team's draft. The fans will be disappointed. This is probably as smart a play as there is.

If we pull a starting DT, DE, and some depth from all our picks it was a win. Drafting ain't easy.

I don't have a problem with the press panning our draft as long as I'm happy with it - those guys have been wrong before...

However if we draft a DE and a DT good enough to start I can't see many people objecting inside or outside of Denver.....

[BroncoInferno]

You would certainly want two passing rushing ends on the field at the same time in nickel sets, so I'm not sure how drafting one pass rushing ending would hurt Elvis' playing time.

[Drek]

I don't think there is any way we take another strictly pass rushing end early in this draft. We already have Dumervil and Lang, both are good rush ends for Bates' system. Ekuban is a solid fit as well.

Thats why I've been championing Jamaal Anderson the draft forum. Take Anderson and we answer our LDE question with an every down stud athlete. He'll stop the run, create pressure on the QB, and occasionally generate turnovers. On the opposite side we'll then be able to utilize Dumervil as an every down pass rusher. He's not a run liability, though he isn't powerful against it, but in Bates' schemes thats not a big deal. The DEs line up very wide, outside the box even, so a fast, long armed guy like Dumervil isn't going to be easy for OTs to pick up in space. That'll help him perform better in both run and pass situations.

I personally can't wait to see an end to all the overly ornate stunting and fakes that Coyer was employing. The end result was often just a cluster**** at the LOS for us and a reciever with a huge matchup advantage for the other team, a la the Ekuban v. Tomlinson play we saw in the first San Diego game of last year.

[Hotrod]

Vegas

[cmhargrove]

Originally Posted by chrisp

I'm inclined to believe rumours I've been hearing that the Broncos are more interested in the 280-290lb ends like Carriker or Anderson than they are in the pass-rush specialists like Moss or Adams. The latter guys are only going to see action on 3rd down their first year even if they do develop into every-down guys further down the line, and as someone has already pointed out we already have one of those guys.

I think that Elvis faces a battle in camp to prove he can hold up against the run whatever happens, but drafting a big DE will help his cause.

I'm sure than if we do get a big DE, he will move inside on passing downs to bring rush specialists on to the field.

I'm also in agreement with those that suggest a DT is an as big if not bigger priority than DE - solid tackle play will free up the DEs more anyway

The funny thing here is that even though Anderson is on the larger side, he isn't considered a pass rush specialist? Of all the "top DE prospects" I believe Anderson led the group last year with 13.5. That's why I think he is worth moving up for. If he is already in the 275-285 range, has natural raw skill, and can get 13.5 sacks - why shouldn't he be the guy? I hope he is. Get Anderson, trade for Jenkins, take whoever the heck else you want.

[cmhargrove]

I really am pulling for Elvis this year. If we get a good DT to pair up with Warren, that will elevate the whole interior. Elvis was really awesome last year when you watch tape (just don't watch him at DT). He was always close to the QB, incredible leverage, just a hand breadth away from 5-6 more sacks on the year because of chip blocks and double teams.

If we get a good fat body that can cause a little havoc in the middle and someone who can rush better than Lang (sorry, it's true), than Elvis really could have a monster year. If we find the right DT, and another good end, Elvis could have 13-15 sacks on the year - watch the tape, he was so close all year.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Mediator has posted a couple of explanations of Bates system. If I interpeted it correctly, Bates uses the DTs to tie up the blockers and stop the run and both DEs rush te passer on every play. He does not use the traditional run stopping DE on the left side.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Originally Posted by cmhargrove

The funny thing here is that even though Anderson is on the larger side, he isn't considered a pass rush specialist? Of all the "top DE prospects" I believe Anderson led the group last year with 13.5. That's why I think he is worth moving up for. If he is already in the 275-285 range, has natural raw skill, and can get 13.5 sacks - why shouldn't he be the guy? I hope he is. Get Anderson, trade for Jenkins, take whoever the heck else you want.