Damn! Led Zeppelin was Good!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Only "Communication Breakdown" sounds thin and whiny like the other bands of the era...

I read an interview with Page where he said the guitar sound on "Communication Breakdown" was intentional, i.e., he wanted it to sound like it was coming out of a shoe box or something. Dude was a master of the art of mic placement, that's for sure.

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Here's my take on it, or as the Lester Bangs character said in Almost Famous "Here's a theory for you to disregard completely..."

I promise I won't disappoint.

Originally Posted by Hogan

What I'm talking about here is the initial influence of Cream coming to the surface across the board. If you look at that year, you'll find many bands like Zeppelin, Sabbath, Free, Grand Funk Railroad, Blue Cheer, etc. etc. all arriving with debut albums, all based upon the loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes, all pretty much at the same time (seperated by a few months here and there but hardly enough to truly matter)....it effectively signaled the end of psychedelia and the advent of hard rock/heavy metal era, totally dominating the scene a mere two years later. I believe Cream to be the first to do this anyways (or if not, then certainly they were the most celebrated of the style's practioners)

I'll grant you that Cream basically invented the hard rock sound, though it was basically primitive (that stone age fuzz box sound makes me wince in pain). Had Jack Bruce been less an a-hole, maybe they couldda progressed together. Too bad really, I always wondered why Clapton changed bands on average every 18 months

But I really don't think Page was much influenced by Cream ... I don't hear much Cream in Zeppelin, not much at all. Like I said, the hard-rock sound pretty much originated with Cream, but the sound of Cream records was pretty thin, in that they sounded like a trio. Zeppelin, although effectively a trio, sounded like a much larger group, in a much bigger room, that was recorded much better.

To me - MY opinion - is that none of the albums you list sound nearly as good as Led Zeppelin, and only "Black Sabbath" is even close creatively, (though Cream did pioneer the hard rock genre). I don't think Grand Funk or Free or Foghat deserve mention in the company of Zeppelin and Sabbath and Cream. I happen to LIKE all these bands (Cream not so much personally), but from a sound perspective - the technical sound of the recording process, none compare. And from a groundbreaking perspective, only Cream and Sabbath compare, and neither band had even a fraction of Zep's musical range (in fact, neither Cream nor Sabbath had much range at all).

Originally Posted by Hogan

Page lifted his stylings from various sources. As a former session guy, this is also no surprise. You site the bow for example, bowing of the guitar was actually the trademark of The Creation’s Eddie Phillips…who made a name for himself with it for a time in the mid-60’s Mod “freak out” sound (think the instrumental break, if you wanna call it that, in The Who’s “Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere and you’ll get the idea) …it was later picked up on and incorporated by Page, as much of his other chops were from a variety of sources.

Everybody lifted their sources from somebody .... it's only something to frown at when you don't like the artist.

And btw ... the bow means nothing to me, never moved me much. But it was creative to use it ... and just because you can name somebody who used it before him (The Creation's "Eddie Phillips" ... reeeally?!) doesn't mean it's not craetive. You love Clapton, Hogan, well I've got some news for you: Buddy Holly was playing a Strat LONG before Clapton, I think Clapton took the whole Strat idea straight from Holly.

Originally Posted by Hogan

IMO, Bonham was an above average drummer of his day. Certainly better than most of the average time-keepers, but there are a few I’d take over him. The Fudge’s Carmine Appice, Keith Moon and Ginger Baker to name a few all displayed much more nimble and fluid drumming on the releases they appeared on. Bonham always seemed labored in his style to me, the aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop. Maybe that was the appeal to some, but to me, I was never all that wowed by it…especially after hearing Appice on the Vanilla Fudge album I keep returning to when discussing the overall sound in question here.

"Aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop" is a perfect comparison The difference is, I LIKE the way he breaks the china, where you see it as indulgent, I guess.

There's lots of great drumers, but Bonham's THUNDER was perfect for Zeppelin, perfect to contribute to Zep's remake of the face of rock music. Sure, Carmine Appice is terrific. So is Aynsley Dunbar. And Keith Moon. And Ginger Baker is especially great. But only John Bonham is immediately identifiable when you hear him play ... every time Bonham has been sampled by modern artists (Levee Breaks, Moby Dick, whatever), you instantly know it's him. Even on that Aliyah song - when you didn't expect it - BOOM! In an instant you KNEW it was Bonham from When the Levee Breaks. That kind of identifiable cound has gotta count for something, Hogan ... even if you don't personally like it, that is impressive.

(You might be interested in this: By all accounts, Bonham was always fairly obsessed with Ginger Baker, felt insecure and quite challenged by him. It was after seeing Cream in London and driving back to Headly Grange to continue work on IV, that a grumbling Bonham, muttering under his breath 'I'll show that bloke Baker something," that he picked up two drumsticks in each hand and started banging the drums so preternaturally hard, that Page raced out to the van to tell them to start the tape - then breathlessly returned to throw on his axe and play along. The two sticks in each hand is where the song "Four Sticks" got its name )

Originally Posted by Hogan

Plant is best left unmentioned by me. Never liked anything about him, his vocals or his mystical bullshat lyrics.

Well now you're just TRYING to be obtuse.

Obtuse? Ob-TUSE?!

Give him another month to think about it ...

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

I read an interview with Page where he said the guitar sound on "Communication Breakdown" was intentional, i.e., he wanted it to sound like it was coming out of a shoe box or something. Dude was a master of the art of mic placement, that's for sure.

Definitely a mic placment wizard ... and the more I'm responding to Hogan's posts, the more I realize that Page might've been even more of a producer/engineer than even a guitar player or songwriter. LZ I just sounds so beauitiful. Irrespective of style or musicianship or songwriting, it's beautifully recorded (as Roh's post to start this thread testifies).

But Communication Breakdown sounded like so much like the other English bands of the time, I always kinda though it must've been recorded earlier, like New Yardbirds time period ... then maybe 6 months or so later, back from the States, they recorded the rest. And Jones and Page singing on it, although it was probably okay then, just sounds silly now.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

And Jones and Page singing on it, although it was probably okay then, just sounds silly now.

There was always a tongue-in-cheek element with LZ (their choice of their name is emblematic.)

[Rohirrim]

Like I said, I love Led Zeppelin. I apologize that my reverence isn't deep enough for some.

[alkemical]

lol Ro~ - i'd rather listen to sabbath at times. )

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

That's interesting ... but I don't know Vanilla Fudge actually. It sounds kinda weak, I'm not dodging your comparison, but they've always been a kind of blank to me. I'm sure you're right that VF used a big bass drum sound, but that hardly makes John Bonham derivative. Bonham was a force.of.nature - utterly inimitable. Even the most bitter Zeppelin detractors acknowledge this (so what does that make you? )

One bass drum, one ride tom, two cymbals, and no frills. Just the thunder of the gods.

It seems to me that maybe ... just maybe ... you Hogan, have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists. That's fine (in fact it's kinda cool, I sometimes feel "left out" that I know so few of the artists you post in here). But when, in service of this prejudice you repeatedly raise the "specter of conspiracy" to marginalize Page and Zeppelin ... well, you lose me there big time. I mean, Randy California wrote a 4-bar melody with a chromatically descending base note ... and suddenly "Stairway to Heaven" is "PLAGIARISM, I SAY ... PLAGIARISM!" Hogan please...

And now here you allege that Page and Bonzo "stole" his drum sound by listening to the opening act on their "New Yardbirds" tour of the States in '68. I'll tell you something, that just sounds nut to me. I may not know Vanilla Fudge, but Bonzo's drum sound is largely a product of studio micing and slap-back echo (and a right foot heavier than a Buick).


C'mon ... Led Zeppelin I is a beautifully recorded record with a full, layered sound unlike anything else in November 1968. Only "Communication Breakdown" sounds thin and whiny like the other bands of the era (and I think it's the only song in their catalog that Jones and Page sang on).
Think of the massive sounding acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You,' or the cavernous cathedral-sounding organ in 'Your Time is Gonna Come' (especially compared to the plastic-sounding Farfisa organs the other bands were using ), or the groundbreaking special effects in 'Dazed and Confused." This was POWERFUL STUFF .... this was NEW STUFF!

I don't find it to be all that weak at all....check out that production and drum sound:



Of course, there's also the well worn story of Appice giving Ludwig a heads up on Bonham because he was so blown away by Appice's drum set and sound:

"When Zeppelin opened for Vanilla Fudge on the band's first US tour in late '86 and early '69, Bonham was bowled over by the appearance and resonance of Appice's kit. "At the time I had the big blonde Ludwig kit with the 26" double bass drums and the big toms," explains Appice "When John saw that kit, he kind of flipped out. He said he'd love to get a Ludwig endorsement and get a kit like that.
I ended up calling Ludwig and told them that Zeppelin was going to be big and this kid John Bonham, you're going to want to endorse him because he was really good and he wants a kit just like mine." I sent them the record and they liked it and they gave him the same kit that I had - two bass drums and everything. We had the two heads on the drums and they were loud!"

http://www.carmineappice.net/pdfs/bo...s_autumn-1.pdf

I just posted that quote for general interest...because everyone borrows from everyone else, but that's kinda the point....it wasn't all that innovative. Here with the Vanilla Fudge, you have the very same drum sound and the very same "cavernous cathedral-sounding organ" sound along with the production techniques that Zeppelin would later take to a wider audience and ultimately, to the bank. Really, it doesn't sound all that nuts to me.

And finally, there's this:

It seems to me that maybe ... just maybe ... you Hogan, have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists. That's fine (in fact it's kinda cool, I sometimes feel "left out" that I know so few of the artists you post in here). But when, in service of this prejudice you repeatedly raise the "specter of conspiracy" to marginalize Page and Zeppelin ... well, you lose me there big time.

I find this rather insulting to be honest. Whilst I'm always on the lookout for new sounds and band's I do not have a prejudice that favors less popular, less known artists....in fact, when it comes to music and artist's work, I've always stressed that the number one priority, no matter how much you happen to love a band or performer, is to be honest about the work they produce. To put forth a honest review, you have to rid yourself of your own personal bias. It may appear to some that I'm harsh on Zeppelin and maybe I am, but I'm also honest about it and fair. You have to be in order to do anything like this otherwise you become nothing but a shill. If anyone doubts me in this area overall or when it comes to Zeppelin in particular, one only needs to go back into this thread and see my album to album response to your post comparing Zep I to other's releases at the time....I believe I give Zep I the nod in a majority of those album to album comparisons, do I not?

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

I promise I won't disappoint.

I'll grant you that Cream basically invented the hard rock sound, though it was basically primitive (that stone age fuzz box sound makes me wince in pain). Had Jack Bruce been less an a-hole, maybe they couldda progressed together. Too bad really, I always wondered why Clapton changed bands on average every 18 months

But I really don't think Page was much influenced by Cream ... I don't hear much Cream in Zeppelin, not much at all. Like I said, the hard-rock sound pretty much originated with Cream, but the sound of Cream records was pretty thin, in that they sounded like a trio. Zeppelin, although effectively a trio, sounded like a much larger group, in a much bigger room, that was recorded much better.

To me - MY opinion - is that none of the albums you list sound nearly as good as Led Zeppelin, and only "Black Sabbath" is even close creatively, (though Cream did pioneer the hard rock genre). I don't think Grand Funk or Free or Foghat deserve mention in the company of Zeppelin and Sabbath and Cream. I happen to LIKE all these bands (Cream not so much personally), but from a sound perspective - the technical sound of the recording process, none compare. And from a groundbreaking perspective, only Cream and Sabbath compare, and neither band had even a fraction of Zep's musical range (in fact, neither Cream nor Sabbath had much range at all).

I think you missed the point some. Cream pioneered the power trio playing loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes. The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.

..and where in the hell did I ever mention Foghat?

Everybody lifted their sources from somebody .... it's only something to frown at when you don't like the artist.

And btw ... the bow means nothing to me, never moved me much. But it was creative to use it ... and just because you can name somebody who used it before him (The Creation's "Eddie Phillips" ... reeeally?!) doesn't mean it's not craetive. You love Clapton, Hogan, well I've got some news for you: Buddy Holly was playing a Strat LONG before Clapton, I think Clapton took the whole Strat idea straight from Holly.

Uh, NO I don't love Eric Clapton. Matter of fact, I had quite the discussion with Watermock a couple of years ago about him....he bought into the whole "Clapton Is God" thing whilst I maintained (and still do) that Cream was dominated in all areas by Jack Bruce. I won't deny Clapton's ability, but I'm far from thrilled by his work since his days with Cream (and that includes Derek).

I believe I covered the lifting of techniques in my last post. Sure it can be creative, but it's not innovative, that's the thing. (and yes, Eddie Phillips, really)

"Aural equivalent of a bull in a china shop" is a perfect comparison The difference is, I LIKE the way he breaks the china, where you see it as indulgent, I guess.

There's lots of great drumers, but Bonham's THUNDER was perfect for Zeppelin, perfect to contribute to Zep's remake of the face of rock music. Sure, Carmine Appice is terrific. So is Aynsley Dunbar. And Keith Moon. And Ginger Baker is especially great. But only John Bonham is immediately identifiable when you hear him play ... every time Bonham has been sampled by modern artists (Levee Breaks, Moby Dick, whatever), you instantly know it's him. Even on that Aliyah song - when you didn't expect it - BOOM! In an instant you KNEW it was Bonham from When the Levee Breaks. That kind of identifiable cound has gotta count for something, Hogan ... even if you don't personally like it, that is impressive.

I never felt Bonham had the fluidity that the other drummers I mentioned had and I personally perfer the nimbleness as opposed to the labored in drummers.

(You might be interested in this: By all accounts, Bonham was always fairly obsessed with Ginger Baker, felt insecure and quite challenged by him. It was after seeing Cream in London and driving back to Headly Grange to continue work on IV, that a grumbling Bonham, muttering under his breath 'I'll show that bloke Baker something," that he picked up two drumsticks in each hand and started banging the drums so preternaturally hard, that Page raced out to the van to tell them to start the tape - then breathlessly returned to throw on his axe and play along. The two sticks in each hand is where the song "Four Sticks" got its name )

I actually have heard of this somewhere before, but not in many years.

[alkemical]

I love baker's work.

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

You're joking, right? The snare that opens this song sounds like a junior high kid in a marching band ... even when they get rolling, the bass drum sounds thick, but it's mic'd very poorly, and the cymbals sound hoooorible. And Hogan, the organ is exactly the plastic Farfisa organ I was making fun of!!

No offense, but I might actually be giving you too much credit. Have you actually listened to the organ sounds on Led Zeppelin 1? Do you know what a cheap Farfisa organ sounds like? Sorry, but the snare, the bass, the cymbals and the organ ... you actually made my point for me with this song. That song has no business being compared to Led Zeppelin I.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

You're joking, right? The snare that opens this song sounds like a junior high kid in a marching band ... even when they get rolling, the bass drum sounds thick, but it's mic'd very poorly, and the cymbals sound hoooorible. And Hogan, the organ is exactly the plastic Farfisa organ I was making fun of!!

No offense, but I might actually be giving you too much credit. Have you actually listened to the organ sounds on Led Zeppelin 1? Do you know what a cheap Farfisa organ sounds like? Sorry, but the snare, the bass, the cymbals and the organ ... you actually made my point for me with this song. That song has no business being compared to Led Zeppelin I.

1) That's not a farfisa, it's a Hammond.....are you sure you know what the difference is? Maybe I gave you too much credit to look at this stuff honestly.

2) That's the very same drum kit and bass drum sound recorded a full three years earlier, Morton's production may've been refined some in the time gap between the two records, but the germ of the overall drum sound is there whether you want to admit it or not.

[BroncoBuff]

Sounds like a Farfisa to me ... seriously, it does. Anybody wanna weigh in? I'm talking :15 seconds to :50 of the song ... even the organ solo at 1:40 sounds "plastic."(maybe it's the "Farfisa" setting on a B3? )

Seriously though, the Gregg Allman, Booker T Jones, John Paul Jones, Three Dog Night, Ray Manzarek, Tom Scholz, right up to today's Hammond players like 'Danger Mouse' from Gnarls Barkley ... their Hammond sounds are much fuller. That just doesn't sound like a Hammond.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Sounds like a Farfisa to me ... seriously, it does. Anybody wanna weigh in? I'm talking :15 seconds to :50 of the song ... even the organ solo at 1:40 sounds "plastic."(maybe it's the "Farfisa" setting on a B3? )

Seriously though, the Gregg Allman, Booker T Jones, John Paul Jones, Three Dog Night, Ray Manzarek, Tom Scholz, right up to today's Hammond players like 'Danger Mouse' from Gnarls Barkley ... their Hammond sounds are much fuller. That just doesn't sound like a Hammond.

Seriously, this is almost as big an error on your part as the notion that I was some kind of Clapton lover. It's pretty unmistakable if you ask me and the Fudge was well known for it's hammond organ heavy sound. Here's a link to Mark Stein's bio just in case I'm called into question on it again http://www.vanillafudge.com/person1.htm
He never used a farfisa, period.

And, for the record, not only can I and do I know the difference between the two organ's sounds, but I actually perfer the farfisa sound to that of the hammond.

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

I think you missed the point some. Cream pioneered the power trio playing loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes. The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.

What point am I missing? I acknowledge Cream pioneered the heavy sound, and Zeppelin took the bare bones of that. (And to the extent it is part of your description, the "trio" aspect seems to me not relevant, # of members in the band doesn't matter, at least not compared to the music. Zep was effectively a trio anyway).

Part of the disconnect here is definitions: "Sound" means two things:

1) sound = style, i.e. power blues-rock
2) sound = recording / producing / mixing quality

1) Yes, Zeppelin took the "heavy" sound from Cream, agreed. But they transported it light years ahead ... I don't think Cream could have ever come up with a Dazed and Confused or Whole Lotta Love or Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.

2) Jimmy Page was a wizard producer/engineer, and Zeppelin I sounds ("sound" #2 definition) significantly better than all the others, light years better imo. I guess a way to express this is: Cream sounds a bit like they were recorded playing live with one mic above the instruments and one mic for the singer. In mono. Listen to the acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.' cream could have never, and I mean never managed such a thick, full sound. Zeppelin I was recorded with dozens of mics, overdubs, and a lush full sound. As I said above, your Vanilla Fudge example makes this point for me ... the sound (#2 definition) of that Vanilla Fudge song kinda sucks.

Originally Posted by Hogan

...and where in the hell did I ever mention Foghat?

You didn't. I just thought it was funny to throw them in there. I laughed anyway ...

Unfair tactic I know. (I think they call it ... "subtraction by addition" )

Originally Posted by Hogan

Uh, NO I don't love Eric Clapton. Matter of fact, I had quite the discussion with Watermock a couple of years ago about him....he bought into the whole "Clapton Is God" thing whilst I maintained (and still do) that Cream was dominated in all areas by Jack Bruce. I won't deny Clapton's ability, but I'm far from thrilled by his work since his days with Cream (and that includes Derek).

I guess you didn't say you loved Clapton, okay.

I believe I covered the lifting of techniques in my last post. Sure it can be creative, but it's not innovative, that's the thing. (and yes, Eddie Phillips, really)

I have no problem saying Page got the idea to use a bow from somebody else.





GAWD ... that short-haired blonde off the top of that video is hot.

Originally Posted by Hogan

Bonham had the fluidity that the other drummers I mentioned had and I personally perfer the nimbleness as opposed to the labored in drummers.

Totally cool ... he was NOT fluid. I seriously doubt he was setting up a jam session with Miles Davis

Originally Posted by Hogan

(Referring Bonham's obsession with Ginger Baker): I've heard of this somewhere before, but not in many years.

Yeah, I read that in "The Making of Led Zeppelin IV."

Remind me, Hogan ... how many other bands have had an entire books written about the recording process of one of their albums?

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

2) That's the very same drum kit and bass drum sound recorded a full three years earlier, Morton's production may've been refined some in the time gap between the two records, but the germ of the overall drum sound is there whether you want to admit it or not.

No way do I "admit it." Appice drives that thing pretty powerfully, but the sound (definition #2) is really not so good.

The marching snare off the top of that song is putrid really, compared to the recorded sound of Bonham's drums (again, I'm referring to "sound" Definition #2 in my post above) … if Jimmy had heard that Appice snare sound off the top there from behind the glass on the Zep I sessions, he would’ve said, “Whoa, whoa! We’ve got a problem here.” I’m serious Hogan, that snare sound would have been unacceptable, it NEVER wouldda made its way onto the vinyl.

And the crash cymbals at 1:45 and beyond … puh-leeeeease! They sound hooorible, and they overdrive the channel too, they’re “in the red,” something that wouldda never happened to seasoned studio master Pagey. (listen @ 6:20 and beyond too … those crash cymbals are horribly mic’ed and ridiculously overdriven)

And then after those cymbals, the organ again at 2:30 … that is a FARFISA! (Actually, that being a Farfisa is the best possible scenario, because if that’s the best sound they could get out of a Hammond, somebody goofed up.)

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan

or the record, not only can I and do I know the difference between the two organ's sounds, but I actually perfer the farfisa sound to that of the hammond.

I'm sure you know the difference, wouldn't have mentioned the brand unless I knew you did.

And it's cool to LIKE Farfisas. Heck, Pink Floyd used them alot...

But listen to the organ at 1:20 to 2:00, and then 2:30 and beyond. It might not be a Farfisa brand, but if that's a Hammond, somebody f'd up - or else puled the B3 stops into "Farfisa" mode.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

What point am I missing?

I acknowledge Cream pioneered the heavy sound, and Zeppelin took the bare bones of that. (And to the extent it is part of your description, the "trio" aspect seems to me not relevant, # of members in the band doesn't matter, at least not compared to the music. Zep was effectively a trio anyway).

Part of the disconnect here is definitions: "Sound" means two things:

1) sound = style, i.e. power blues-rock
2) sound = recording / producing / mixing quality

1) Yes, Zeppelin took the "heavy" sound from Cream, agreed. But they transported it light years ahead ... I don't think Cream could have ever come up with a Dazed and Confused or Whole Lotta Love or Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.

You basically rephrased what I said in the paragraph you were responding to:

The influence of that (loud, improv dissemblings on blues themes) hit all at once basically in '69 with all those albums/band's listed, all arriving with the same concept and then taking it in their own directions in subsequent releases. I don't think it's a stretch to say Zep I fits in that catagory.

.2) Jimmy Page was a wizard producer/engineer, and Zeppelin I sounds ("sound" #2 definition) significantly better than all the others, light years better imo. I guess a way to express this is: Cream sounds a bit like they were recorded playing live with one mic above the instruments and one mic for the singer. In mono. Listen to the acoustic guitar in 'Babe I'm Gonna Leave You.' cream could have never, and I mean never managed such a thick, full sound. Zeppelin I was recorded with dozens of mics, overdubs, and a lush full sound. As I said above, your Vanilla Fudge example makes this point for me ... the sound (#2 definition) of that Vanilla Fudge song kinda sucks.

You're comparing production techniques over the span of years here and you can't really do that because the equiptment evoloved at such a rapid rate during that time that anything recorded in '66 & '67 would sound obsolete by '69 & '70. The Fudge album was recorded in '66, released in '67 and was known as the heaviest sounding record at that time....given the relationship between the bands, don't you think it's possible that they took the sound of that record (recording / producing / mixing quality, etc) and used it for their own only with state of the art equiptment three years later? Of course the sound would be vastly improved due to the time span and the improvement in recording equiptment, but that doesn't negate the influence. It's kinda the same as Appice turning Bonham on to Ludwig drums.

You didn't. I just thought it was funny to throw them in there. I laughed anyway ...

Unfair tactic I know. (I think they call it ... "subtraction by addition" )

That used to be known as a "pulling a Mock".

I guess you didn't say you loved Clapton, okay.

Yeah, I think you got me confused with Roh on that one....I was miffed by that given the go around I had with Mock on that years ago.

I have no problem saying Page got the idea to use a bow from somebody else.

Okay, that was the point....cool enough.

GAWD ... that short-haired blonde off the top of that video is hot.

They knew how to pick the audience members back then for sure...those old clips from that time are loaded with women like that

Totally cool ... he was NOT fluid. I seriously doubt he was setting up a jam session with Miles Davis

Yeah, fluidity is big with me

Yeah, I read that in "The Making of Led Zeppelin IV."

Remind me, Hogan ... how many other bands have had an entire books written about the recording process of one of their albums?

...but that's not the record in question here Buff.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

No way do I "admit it." Appice drives that thing pretty powerfully, but the sound (definition #2) is really not so good.

The marching snare off the top of that song is putrid really, compared to the recorded sound of Bonham's drums (again, I'm referring to "sound" Definition #2 in my post above) … if Jimmy had heard that Appice snare sound off the top there from behind the glass on the Zep I sessions, he would’ve said, “Whoa, whoa! We’ve got a problem here.” I’m serious Hogan, that snare sound would have been unacceptable, it NEVER wouldda made its way onto the vinyl.

And the crash cymbals at 1:45 and beyond … puh-leeeeease! They sound hooorible, and they overdrive the channel too, they’re “in the red,” something that wouldda never happened to seasoned studio master Pagey. (listen @ 6:20 and beyond too … those crash cymbals are horribly mic’ed and ridiculously overdriven)

And then after those cymbals, the organ again at 2:30 … that is a FARFISA! (Actually, that being a Farfisa is the best possible scenario, because if that’s the best sound they could get out of a Hammond, somebody goofed up.)

I really don't understand why you're having such a hard time with this...Bonham is using the very same set that Appice uses, check that link I posted again for the story on that...the same set of Ludwigs. You're also trying to compare production that had been improved upon three years removed from the Fudge album. That cannot be done fairly.

and finally, no farfisas were used on that or any other Fudge record....do I really have to pile up links to prove that to you?

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

You basically rephrased what I said in the paragraph you were responding to

I guess we basically agree on that part then.

You're comparing production techniques over the span of years here and you can't really do that because the equiptment evoloved at such a rapid rate during that time that anything recorded in '66 & '67 would sound obsolete by '69 & '70. The Fudge album was recorded in '66, released in '67 and was known as the heaviest sounding record at that time....given the relationship between the bands, don't you think it's possible that they took the sound of that record (recording / producing / mixing quality, etc) and used it for their own only with state of the art equiptment three years later?

Very very possible ... and in a way, you're acknowledging Zep I was at least recorded better. The quality of equipment progressed rapidly in those 2-3 years (watch that Tom Dowd movie!!!!)

And yes, I'm certain Page borrowed from their recording styles. BUt Page was a major studio veteran, he played on everybody's records (EVERYbody's records, even the Stones). So Page learned a million and one things froma million and one sources about recording.

Originally Posted by Hogan

That used to be known as a "pulling a Mock".

Now listen Hogan, I realize you prefer these other British bands, the Stones, Who, Floyd, Peter and Gordon, but I really think you should consider ...


Yeah, I think you got me confused with Roh on that one....I was miffed by that given the go around I had with Mock on that years ago.

Originally Posted by Hogan

They knew how to pick the audience members back then for sure...those old clips from that time are loaded with women like that

No kidding .... GAWD is she something. Danish or what was that language, German?

Originally Posted by Hogan

...but that's not the record in question here Buff.

No it's not, that was just a little dig. But you'll admit I have mostly avoided using the immense popularity and sales of Zeppelin as part of my arguments.

But man, they did sell alotta albums. I think they're #1 all-time in total sales as ratio to number of albums released (just 9 including Coda).

[BroncoBuff]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

and finally, no farfisas were used on that or any other Fudge record....do I really have to pile up links to prove that to you?

I believe you ... I later edited my post on the organ stuff about 3 up ^^

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

I guess we basically agree on that part then.

Very very possible ... and in a way, you're acknowledging Zep I was at least recorded better. The quality of equipment progressed rapidly in those 2-3 years (watch that Tom Dowd movie!!!!)

And yes, I'm certain Page borrowed from their recording styles. BUt Page was a major studio veteran, he played on everybody's records (EVERYbody's records, even the Stones). So Page learned a million and one things froma million and one sources about recording.

Okay, two more issues we can put to bed now

Now listen Hogan, I realize you prefer these other British bands to Zeppelin, the Stones, Who, Floyd, Peter and Gordon, but I really think you should consider ...

Oh Man...don't get me started

No kidding .... GAWD is she something. Danish or what was that language, German?)

German...one very attractive Frauline indeed.

[FADERPROOF]

My dad still tells me of the first time he saw Zeppelin in concert, they opened for Vanilla Fudge before they were known and as LZ1 was coming out.

Said they came on stage and the presence was unbelievable, and after they closed set the entire crowd was walking around going "holy ****! Did you just hear that band?" said he was sold from that point on.

[ElwayMD]

Only thing that beats cranking up some Zep on a weekend is putting The Who on and trying to figure out how in the hell Keith Moon didn't pass out and die every time he sat in front of a drum kit. John Bonham may have had the heavy foot but damn Keith Moon had insane skills. He was all over the kit and still kept the tempo (and of course he helped name LZ so the circle is complete). Also, listening to "The Ox" on bass is amazing they have an isolated audio of him playing "Won't get Fooled Again" on YouTube and his bassline is just sick.

The Who paved the way for so much of the rock we appreciate today it's insane to think that My Generation was being written while Lennon and McCartney were still trying singing their "teenie-bopper" songs. Now I just wish they would retire, Roger is starting to sound like his lungs are going to explode every time he tries to hit a high note.