General Baseball Thread 2007

[Smelvin]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

I like Cleveland the city a lot actually...but I'm rather indifferent to the American League as a whole.

As far as the Jake goes...yeah, it's a beautiful park, but out of the ones I've been to thus far, I'd rank Coors and especially PNC ahead of it.

Check out Pac Bell...or AT&T, whatever. It will alwasy be Pac Bell to me.

Hands down the most beautiful park in America. You can sit in the upper deck, have a fantastic view of the game and watch 100 sail boats in the Bay crouise around. The Bay Bridge is in the backgroud...lefties with power can reach the drink...just a fantsatic viewing experience.

The All-Star game is in SF this year so everyone will see what it's about.

[MechanicalBull]

With Giambi's contract it is going to be hard to unload him unless the Yankees decide to eat a decent amount of it. This guy is the only one to pretty much come out and admitted he took something and now everyone hates him and is giving him slack for it. The Yankees and their fans want to get rid of him and dump his salary and MLB doesn't really want him saying anything. Their whole stance on trying to clean up the sport is one big joke. I'm not a huge Giambi fan but I do like it that he had the guts to stand up and at least admit something.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05222007...eorge_king.htm

The Angels’ interest in Giambi, who was in a 1-for-26 slump and batting .268 going into last night’s game, was before the recent controversy surfaced. It’s likely the Angels, who have 30 homers, will wait to see what MLB does before pursuing a deal the Yankees would have to listen to very seriously.

The Angels have utility man Chone Figgins to move as well as backup catcher Jose Molina. And their farm system is loaded with young arms. However, if the Yankees have to eat a sizeable portion of Giambi’s salary to make the trade they would want more back for Giambi. As for Giambi, he has a blanket no-trade clause. However, the Angels play 20 minutes from West Covina, where he grew up, and an equal distance from the Orange County beaches Giambi enjoys.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by Smelvin

Check out Pac Bell...or AT&T, whatever. It will alwasy be Pac Bell to me.

Hands down the most beautiful park in America. You can sit in the upper deck, have a fantastic view of the game and watch 100 sail boats in the Bay crouise around. The Bay Bridge is in the backgroud...lefties with power can reach the drink...just a fantsatic viewing experience.

The All-Star game is in SF this year so everyone will see what it's about.

I've never been to San Francisco in my life....I can't weigh in on a park I've never been to, that wouldn't be honest, but if I ever do get out that way, it'll absolutely be on the list of things to see.

[-Slap-]

Originally Posted by Drek

Six WS actually, as PatsWin pointed out, and go take a look over those old Yankees championship teams. They weren't built on farm development but on horrible mismanagement by then Red Sox ownership. Its the seedy history of baseball now long since past, a scandal easily comparable to the Chicago Black Sox, but with a much larger legacy.

You can't be comparing the sale of Babe Ruth to the fixing of the 1919 World Series. Ruth's arrival in New York and his incredible popularity rescued baseball in the dark days after the Black Sox scandal. Believe it or not, a lot of Boston sportswriters actually thought Frazee robbed the Yankees by getting $80,000 for Ruth. They thought Ruth was too wild to ever settle down and believed he would drink his way out of baseball at a young age.

I don't know any other trades between the two clubs that would have significantly swung the balance of power. Besides, the Yankees had multiple championships/dynasties throughout the 20s, 30s, 40s and 50s. Pretty mean conspiracy. Just like today, they simply had more resources than anybody else. Before the amatuer draft, or the reserve clause, once a player signed with a club, they owned him for life. The Yankees signed tons of great ballplayers and then just buried them in their minor league system for their entire careers. What are you supposed to do if you're a catcher and you've got Bill Dickey ahead of you on the big club and Yogi Berra ahead of you in the farm system? The answer was you got used to bus rides to Altoona or you found another line of work. The Yanks had guys who could have started on half the teams in the majors and they were lucky to get a cup of coffee in September.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia Red Sox Entry

After the sale of Ruth to the Yankees, Frazee continued to sell many of his star players. In the winter of 1920, Wally Schang, future star pitcher Waite Hoyt, Harry Harper, and Mike McNally were traded to the Yankees for Del Pratt, Muddy Ruel, John Costello, Hank Thormahlen, Sammy Vick and cash.^[7] The following winter, iron man shortstop Everett Scott, and pitchers Bullet Joe Bush and Sad Sam Jones were traded to the Yankees for Roger Peckinpaugh (who would be immediately shipped to the Washington Senators), Jack Quinn, Rip Collins, Bill Piercy and $50,000.^[8] One particularly controversial deal was that of Joe Dugan and Elmer Smith, who were traded to the Yankees on July 23, 1922, for Elmer Miller, Chick Fewster, John Mitchell, and future superstar Lefty O'Doul, who was at the time a mediocre pitching prospect. The trade of Dugan helped the Yankees edge the St. Louis Browns in a tight pennant race, and the resulting uproar helped create a June 15 trading deadline that went into effect the next year.^[9] Perhaps an even more outrageous deal was the trade of Herb Pennock, occurring in early 1923. Pennock was traded by the Red Sox to the Yankees for Camp Skinner, Norm McMillan, George Murray and $50,000.^[10]

Frazee bought the team and less than four years later began a monumental firesale that surpasses both Marlins firesales combined, almost all of which was sent to the Yankees for middling talent and cash to finance his various preferential endevours.

That same core basically went form winning championships in Boston to winning them in New York, which built the team into the powerhouse it was for the next several decades.

So you don't consider a theater man coming in and liquidating pretty much all talent from a perenial championshiship team to its' regional rival, primarily in cash deals, over half a decade comparable to a single fixed series in which not even the entire team was in on?

One seems a hell of a lot seedier to me, and its the one that has nothing to do with players trying to screw an owner nicknamed "Commie".

Doesn't matter now though, Sox fans have walked through the proverbial valley of darkness that was horrible mismanagement and poor ownership to now finally be delivered by real baseball men, and we're enjoying the rewards.

[-Slap-]

Originally Posted by Drek

Frazee bought the team and less than four years later began a monumental firesale that surpasses both Marlins firesales combined, almost all of which was sent to the Yankees for middling talent and cash to finance his various preferential endevours.

That same core basically went form winning championships in Boston to winning them in New York, which built the team into the powerhouse it was for the next several decades.

So you don't consider a theater man coming in and liquidating pretty much all talent from a perenial championshiship team to its' regional rival, primarily in cash deals, over half a decade comparable to a single fixed series in which not even the entire team was in on?

One seems a hell of a lot seedier to me, and its the one that has nothing to do with players trying to screw an owner nicknamed "Commie".

Doesn't matter now though, Sox fans have walked through the proverbial valley of darkness that was horrible mismanagement and poor ownership to now finally be delivered by real baseball men, and we're enjoying the rewards.

Its a bit more complicated. The AL president at the time was Ban Johnson and he basically pressured five of the seven AL teams into not making any deals with Frazee. This left Boston only the recently disgraced White Sox or the Yankees as available trading partners. Most of the trades between the two clubs didn't look that bad at the time they were made. Ed Barrow was the Red Sox GM and when he left for New York in 1920, he made a point of acquiring players who he was familiar with from his days in Boston. Its certainly not a stretch to figure he would know which prospects had the most potential, seeing as how he originally signed them all years earlier. The Red Sox might have gotten fleeced, but trades are part of the game. Besides, the Yankees most dominant dynasties didn't happen until the 30s and 50s, long after the influence of those lopsided trades would have made much impact.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

Its a bit more complicated. The AL president at the time was Ban Johnson and he basically pressured five of the seven AL teams into not making any deals with Frazee. This left Boston only the recently disgraced White Sox or the Yankees as available trading partners. Most of the trades between the two clubs didn't look that bad at the time they were made. Ed Barrow was the Red Sox GM and when he left for New York in 1920, he made a point of acquiring players who he was familiar with from his days in Boston. Its certainly not a stretch to figure he would know which prospects had the most potential, seeing as how he originally signed them all years earlier. The Red Sox might have gotten fleeced, but trades are part of the game. Besides, the Yankees most dominant dynasties didn't happen until the 30s and 50s, long after the influence of those lopsided trades would have made much impact.

It is more complicated, more than your portrayal as well.

For example, almost none of those deals were perceived in a fair light at the time (take it from someone who's talked to various Red Sox/Yankee fans alive at the time, like my own late grandfather), which is why pretty much all of them included cash.

How much cash? Well when you add in the payout for Ruth you're talking over $300,000. Frazee only paid $500,000 for the whole damn team.

Also, the Ruth deal, yeah he was restricted to the Yankees and White Sox, but the White Sox offered Joe Jackson and $60,000 while the Yankees offered a straight $100,000. What strikes you as the better organizational move? Remember at this time Joe Jackson wasn't banned (he in fact played the entire 1920 season) and wouldn't have been prompted by Charlie Comiskey to plead guilty.

Frazee owned the team through '23, just long enough to finish trading away as many assets as he could to former right hand man Ed Barrow before selling the team at over twice the price he paid for it. Never mind that the entire situation was instigated by Frazee's hatred of Ban Johnson and a $350,000 loan from the Yankees, his end alone is a pretty obvious smash and grab heist without the least bit of subtlety.

He bought low, parted the organization out to his backers in New York, and made off with a pile of cash, all while spiting in the face of Ban Johnson and the "Loyal Five" who then got to play against one team with the organizational depth of two. In his 6 years of ownership Frazee made over $1 Million dollars profit.

Thing is, I'm not bitter or anything over it. The Yankees ownership made the moves needed at the time to become a contender. Was it crooked? Hell yes, but that was the nature of pro baseball at the time. But it just goes to show you the power of good ownership. After the Sox left Frazee they went through the inept ownership of Quinn followed by the misguided and soft hearted Yawkeys. They consistently knee capped the franchise for decades. No curse of Babe Ruth or any such nonsense, just plain old mismanagement. We've got a great ownership group now though, and are reaping the profits.

It wasn't too many years ago that the Red Sox couldn't sell out a stadium as small as Fenway, now tickets couldn't be worth more if they were made of solid gold. This is almost entirely thanks to the new ownership. Thats why I can't help but laugh at all the "big market/small market" whiners who think its a totally unbalanced league. Its the ultimate convergence of sports and capitalism. Two of the defining characteristics of our country in one game. If you have a shrewd businessman at the helm who is also a baseball guy and cares about winning you can make a powerhouse organization, both on the field and in the bank account.

[Hogan11]

Conspiracy? You want a conspiracy? This takes the cake in my book:

In an orchestrated move with Bud Selig and John W. Henry (owner of the Florida Marlins at the time), Henry bid for the Boston Red Sox, sold the Florida Marlins to Loria for $158.5 million, including a $38.5 million no-interest loan from MLB. The deal was approved by the other owners before Loria and Henry even signed a contract. Loria promptly sold the Expos to "Expos Baseball, LP," a partnership of the other 29 major league clubs, for $120 million. Loria then moved the Expos' entire front office and on-field staff to Florida.

The end results of this deal:

Each MLB club got a cut of the Expos sale to Washington DC and both Loria and Henry got a World Series Championship after the deal (Loria's Marlins in 2003 & Henry's Red Sox in 2004).

Hmmm.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

Conspiracy? You want a conspiracy? This takes the cake in my book:



The end results of this deal:

Each MLB club got a cut of the Expos sale to Washington DC and both Loria and Henry got a World Series Championship after the deal (Loria's Marlins in 2003 & Henry's Red Sox in 2004).

Hmmm.

Yeah, Selig ran a pretty good shell game there trying to set up his much desired contraction. But there wasn't anything that attacked the integrity of the game between the lines, which Frazee's fire sale did.

I do find it rather hilarious that Tom Werner, now Red Sox minority owner, did his own fire sale with the Padres a little over a decade ago. I also find it hilarious that Henry went from a team with a bad lease agreement where he was constantly pining for a new stadium (even saying he'd build it with his own money if need be) to the oldest stadium in baseball but talks of building a new one were shelved within a year of purchase.

The net effect on the Red Sox is a different owner, but its one with a commitment to winning. Frazee's effect, as I said, was basically giving one team the organizational depth of two, while he made a quick money grab. One is just back room corporate dealing, one impinges the integrity of the teams fans watched for over a decade.

[PatsWin2002]

What do y'all think of this Giambi thing?

Report: Giambi failed amphetamines test within last year

We all knew that big, sweaty, pumpkinhead was back on something!

[Smelvin]

Tim freaking Lincecum. simply awesome!!!

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by PatsWin2002

What do y'all think of this Giambi thing?

Report: Giambi failed amphetamines test within last year

We all knew that big, sweaty, pumpkinhead was back on something!

Giambi: Those didn't help me hit the ball either.

Reporter: Then why did you take them?

Giambi: No comment.

What a joke this guy is.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by Drek

Yeah, Selig ran a pretty good shell game there trying to set up his much desired contraction. But there wasn't anything that attacked the integrity of the game between the lines, which Frazee's fire sale did.

What?

Just by having the league own and operate the Expos for a few years the integrity of the game was jepardized...especially with moves like refusing the team to have September callups. It was a clear conflict of interest and it put MLB in the ranks of the WWE and XFL while it was going on.

The net effect on the Red Sox is a different owner, but its one with a commitment to winning. Frazee's effect, as I said, was basically giving one team the organizational depth of two, while he made a quick money grab. One is just back room corporate dealing, one impinges the integrity of the teams fans watched for over a decade.

The net effect of the entire franchise swap situation was one where all it's principle's profited.....very quickly. Honestly, It probably was circumstance that had the Marlins beat the Yankees in 2003 and the Red Sox grabbing their first World Series in ages the very next year....but it also smells somewhat fishy. In a league where a clear conflict of interest can blatently take place for a couple of years, it remains a not so far fetched possibility whether one wants to admit it or not.

[Bronco LB 59]

Originally Posted by Hogan11

What?

Just by having the league own and operate the Expos for a few years the integrity of the game was jepardized...especially with moves like refusing the team to have September callups. It was a clear conflict of interest and it put MLB in the ranks of the WWE and XFL while it was going on.

The MLB Commissioners Office not allowing the Expos to expand their roster from 25-to-40 was downright dirty and the media did a lousy job of giving the story the attention it deserved. Frank Robinson and the Expos entered September 2003 in the thick of the pennant race.

[Hogan11]

Originally Posted by Bronco LB 52

The MLB Commissioners Office not allowing the Expos to expand their roster from 25-to-40 was downright dirty and the media did a lousy job of giving the story the attention it deserved. Frank Robinson and the Expos entered September 2003 in the thick of the pennant race.

Yes...that move and the deal as a whole casts a shoadow of doubt on the legitimancy of both the Marlins & Red Sox WS championships to me.....it all seems too perfect....almost like it was some sort of part of the inital deal.

The sweeping under the rug of the callup refusal at the time is also mindboggling....maybe no one wanted to bring into question the integrity of the so-called National Passtime and chose to ignore an obivous wrong as it was happening, who knows.

The franchise swap of 2002 stunk to high heaven....and it still does.

[MechanicalBull]

Originally Posted by PatsWin2002

What do y'all think of this Giambi thing?

Report: Giambi failed amphetamines test within last year

We all knew that big, sweaty, pumpkinhead was back on something!

I really don't find him taking amphetamines that big of a story since everyone already knew and he admitted that he was taking something else much worse than that. Plus years ago a lot of ballplayers were taking amphetamines.

The whole MLB trying to clean up the sport is a joke. They want the players to be clean but they also don't want the players to be clean.

[SouthStndJunkie]

Magglio Ordonez is off to a heck of a start this year.

.344 average

21 doubles

11 HRs

41 RBIs

[SouthStndJunkie]

Make that 12 HRs and 42 RBIs.

Dude is on fire.

2 HRs so far tonight.

[MechanicalBull]

Originally Posted by SouthStndJunkie

Make that 12 HRs and 42 RBIs.

Dude is on fire.

2 HRs so far tonight.

Yeah he is on fire to start the season so far. It's also great for whoever has him on their fantasy team

[SouthStndJunkie]

Put out the fire......Maggs is still smoking!

4-4 so far today. Average up to .361 at the moment. 2 more doubles (23) and 3 more RBIs (45).

[Clockwork Orange]

This is something else.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ba...t&lid=tab2pos2

No, not the article, the fact that the guy who wrote the article is named Tristan Cockcroft.



Seriously, have you ever heard a gayer name than that for a guy in your life?

[MechanicalBull]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

This is something else.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/ba...t&lid=tab2pos2

No, not the article, the fact that the guy who wrote the article is named Tristan Cockcroft.



Seriously, have you ever heard a gayer name than that for a guy in your life?

It can't be. That can not be his real name I refuse to believe that his parents named him Tristan Cockcroft.

[Clockwork Orange]

According to ESPN, the Yankees have expressed interest in Todd Helton and Brian Fuentes, but no deal is imminent. It's on the front page on espn.com in the rumors section and to read it you have to have insider, so that's all I've got.

Something to keep an eye on.

[MechanicalBull]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

According to ESPN, the Yankees have expressed interest in Todd Helton and Brian Fuentes, but no deal is imminent. It's on the front page on espn.com in the rumors section and to read it you have to have insider, so that's all I've got.

Something to keep an eye on.

Just keep on adding to the payroll for the Yanks. Helton would help them out but they don't need hitting they need pitching so why get Helton. They are probably interested since they know Boston is interested.

Bob Ryan was on WFAN here in NY the other day and he mentioned that Boston would love to get Helton but doesn't see it happening with how well Youkilis and Lowell are playing right now because with Ortiz as the DH one of those two(Lowell or Youkilis) would always be on the bench unless Lowell was part of the deal.

[MechanicalBull]

With Minn 7 games out at the moment does Torii Hunter get traded before this season ends? If yes then where are some likely destinations?

Despite being off to the best start of his eight-year major league career, it remains doubtful that the Minnesota Twins can re-sign Torii Hunter, who can become a free agent after the season.

The reason is that Hunter, who is on his way to his second all-star appearance, will be unaffordable.

At his present pace, Hunter, 31, who is being paid $12 million this season, can expect guaranteed offers in the $75 million range over five years, or $60 million for four years.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/p...?urn=mlb,33618