Open Letter to Shanahan: LET BATES SHOP FOR THE GROCERIES!

[BroncoBuff]

With such a respected, even revered D-Coordinator coming in, a guy with phenomenal success elsewhere and by all accounts rabid loyalty among former players, Shanahan should let Jim Bates "shop for his own groceries."

When you look close, Shanahan is just plain AWFUL at drafting and free agency shopping for defensive players. The defensive draft deficiencies over the past six years are well documented - Paul Toviessi, Willie Middlebrooks, Terry Pierce, Nick Eason, Dorsett Davis, and to the extent they were first rounders, Deltha O'Neal and DJ Williams.

Less is made of Shanahan's HORRIBLE defensive FA moves. And not older horrible signings like the classics Darryl Gardener and Dale Carter, I'm talking the past four years alone! Man for man, lesser players replacing free agents he permitted to go. To wit:

2003: Deltha O'Neal out, Kelly Herndon in. Say what you will about Deltha - but he has flourished since leaving.
2003: Montae Reagor out, Mario Fatafehi in. One would be starting in Super Bowl if not for accident, the other waived outta Canada.
2004: Bertrand Berry out, Reggie Hayward in. Bertie led NFL in sacks his first year gone, and we lost Reg a year later to FA.
2004: Kelly Herndon out, Lenny Walls in. A classic "one or the other" decision for Shanny ... he chose wrong.
2004: Ian Gold out, DJ Williams in. DJ was not an upgrade, or else they would not have moved him over to bring Ian back.
2005: Reggie Hayward out, Courtney Brown in. Both were out all of 2006, but there's one difference: Reggie's coming back.
2005: Kenoy Kennedy out. Nick Ferguson in. Nick is decent vs run, but bad coverage helped lose the AFC ch-ship game.
2006: Trevor Pryce out, Kenard Lang in. Trevor was 5th in the league with 13 sacks - as much as any two Broncos combined.


Of course, Shanahan has made a couppla good moves - mostly trades: Champ and Gerard Warren ... and he did draft Al Wilson and the '05 CBs ... and there have even been two "positive" defensive FA moves in that time:

2004: Nick Ferguson out, John Lynch in. Definite upgrade, and we kept Nick of course.
2005: Donnie Spragan out, Ian Gold in. CANNOT credit Shanahan for this move, because had he kept Ian a year earlier - we'd have Steven Jackson now!!!!


Overall, Shanahan's moves have drained this defense year after year after year ... and he has enough on his hands now, opening up the old #7 playbook with all the new faces on offense. And Bates is a head-coach caliber, hugely respected guy (we heard what Jason Taylor said), So I hope Shanahan gives him some loose reins in personnel decisions.

[Kaylore]

Each one of those moves has a little bit of side story to it, but overall I agree with your general complaint. For the amount of money and picks we've invested in this defense, our only home-grown pro-bowler is Al Wilson and they are good but not great. And the way we've thrown things at it, we should be awesome. A lot of people want to blame the coordinators, but the fact is that players make the plays and Shanahan and Sundquist were the ones in charge trying to build this squad.

I don't know that Bates is that amazing of a talent evaluator, though. Not all great coaches are great scouts. My hope is that we can finally grab some prospects that are ready to go. Last years' draft was amazing because everyone competed including the latter picks that we seem to just throw away on guys with ACL's, broken feet, and tiny hands.

Anyway, here's to better success there.

[BroncoBuff]

Thanks, Khan .... I know, side stories one and all ...

And yes, I know, I know, "salary cap concerns, BroncoBuff! Salary cap!" But the salary cap doesn't explain all these bad moves!

Plus I just noticed: Shanahan's two best moves - both trades (Champ and Warren) - were only possible due to our preternatural ability to manufacture top-flite running backs ... they came over for Reuben Droughns and Clinton Portis. So Shanahan's two best defensive moves - to get two of our three best defensive players (Al Wilson the third) - came from bleeding our RB-maker machine. Not exactly a personnel man's proudest acheivement at roster-building.

[defenseman]

Agreed...dman

[-Slap-]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Each one of those moves has a little bit of side story to it, but overall I agree with your general complaint. For the amount of money and picks we've invested in this defense, our only home-grown pro-bowler is Al Wilson and they are good but not great. And the way we've thrown things at it, we should be awesome. A lot of people want to blame the coordinators, but the fact is that players make the plays and Shanahan and Sundquist were the ones in charge trying to build this squad.

Their unhealthy fetish for small athletes has ****ed us up big time.

[Rohirrim]

Yes. I'm hoping that new blood comes in and starts making the defensive decisions. We need some playmakers.

[-Slap-]

We need some roughnecks. No rational person could look at that squad and call them anything but a finesse defense.

[BroncoInferno]

I don't buy that previous cooridnators and even other defensive assistants did not have major input on personnel decisions. You think it was a coincidence we brought four former Browns in the same offseason Patterson came on board? The defensive coaches get plenty of input; I have no doubt about that.

[BroncoInferno]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

CANNOT credit Shanahan for this move, because had he kept Ian a year earlier - we'd have Steven Jackson now!!!!

Actually, no, Shanny had Chris Perry rated as the #1 RB in the 2004 draft, not Jackson. One of the few times he and the staff have called that one wrong (though Perry has been limited by injuries and the presence of Rudi Johnson, to be fair).

[-Slap-]

Originally Posted by BroncoInferno

I don't buy that previous cooridnators and even other defensive assistants did not have major input on personnel decisions. You think it was a coincidence we brought four former Browns in the same offseason Patterson came on board? The defensive coaches get plenty of input; I have no doubt about that.

Bargain bin rejects, though. Castoffs from a bottom ranked defense that was changing to a 3-4 scheme.

It was a move that outside observers derided as desperate, but Bronco fans considered it better to sign four guys than to resign Reggie Hayward for the same money.

In retrospect, we should have went for a couple Chike Okeafor/Bryce Fisher level guys instead.

[Wes Mantooth]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

With such a respected, even revered D-Coordinator coming in, a guy with phenomenal success elsewhere and by all accounts rabid loyalty among former players, Shanahan should let Jim Bates "shop for his own groceries."

When you look close, Shanahan is just plain AWFUL at drafting and free agency shopping for defensive players. The defensive draft deficiencies over the past six years are well documented - Paul Toviessi, Willie Middlebrooks, Terry Pierce, Nick Eason, Dorsett Davis, and to the extent they were first rounders, Deltha O'Neal and DJ Williams.

Less is made of Shanahan's HORRIBLE defensive FA moves. And not older horrible signings like the classics Darryl Gardener and Dale Carter, I'm talking the past four years alone! Man for man, lesser players replacing free agents he permitted to go. To wit:

2003: Deltha O'Neal out, Kelly Herndon in. Say what you will about Deltha - but he has flourished since leaving.
2003: Montae Reagor out, Mario Fatafehi in. One would be starting in Super Bowl if not for accident, the other waived outta Canada.
2004: Bertrand Berry out, Reggie Hayward in. Bertie led NFL in sacks his first year gone, and we lost Reg a year later to FA.
2004: Kelly Herndon out, Lenny Walls in. A classic "one or the other" decision for Shanny ... he chose wrong.
2004: Ian Gold out, DJ Williams in. DJ was not an upgrade, or else they would not have moved him over to bring Ian back.
2005: Reggie Hayward out, Courtney Brown in. Both were out all of 2006, but there's one difference: Reggie's coming back.
2005: Kenoy Kennedy out. Nick Ferguson in. Nick is decent vs run, but bad coverage helped lose the AFC ch-ship game.
2006: Trevor Pryce out, Kenard Lang in. Trevor was 5th in the league with 13 sacks - as much as any two Broncos combined.


Of course, Shanahan has made a couppla good moves - mostly trades: Champ and Gerard Warren ... and he did draft Al Wilson and the '05 CBs ... and there have even been two "positive" defensive FA moves in that time:

2004: Nick Ferguson out, John Lynch in. Definite upgrade, and we kept Nick of course.
2005: Donnie Spragan out, Ian Gold in. CANNOT credit Shanahan for this move, because had he kept Ian a year earlier - we'd have Steven Jackson now!!!!


Overall, Shanahan's moves have drained this defense year after year after year ... and he has enough on his hands now, opening up the old #7 playbook with all the new faces on offense. And Bates is a head-coach caliber, hugely respected guy (we heard what Jason Taylor said), So I hope Shanahan gives him some loose reins in personnel decisions.

I have always thought that his coordinators did the shopping or at least made the list. He just gave the final stamp.

[BroncoInferno]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

Bargain bin rejects, though. Castoffs from a bottom ranked defense that was changing to a 3-4 scheme.

It was a move that outside observers derided as desperate, but Bronco fans considered it better to sign four guys than to resign Reggie Hayward for the same money.

In retrospect, we should have went for a couple Chike Okeafor/Bryce Fisher level guys instead.

Well, of course there are cap constraints that have to be considered. If Bates says, "Go get me Dwight Freeney", Shanny will likely ask for some other names more modestly price. One reason we've gone for some of those bargain basement types is because we are always tight against the cap. Some teams take the approach of sacrificing a season or two to clear out some cap room, but of course Shanny is always in win now mode and will squeeze the current cap for every dollar and worry about next year when it comes. It keeps us competitive every year, but maybe we would have been better off taking a "purge the cap" type of season for the sake of future seasons; I really don't know. We seem to be in pretty good shape this season with the cap, by most accounts, so hopefully we'll see some real talent brought in.

[SureShot]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

We need some roughnecks. No rational person could look at that squad and call them anything but a finesse defense.

No doubt. Can anyone remeber when our "top flight" LB trio physically dominated a game? I can't.

Draft Willis or Carriker and sign a badass FA.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by yoakum3

I have always thought that his coordinators did the shopping or at least made the list. He just gave the final stamp.

See, that's been my question. But, I've gotten the idea from some people that this isn't the case. Well, if it's not the case... how does Patterson bring over the entire Browns defense with him? Was that Shanahan's idea?

Still, I think we all can agree that Shanahan has had a good amount of influence over the decisions on D, and most of them haven't been good.

I agree with the thread, and I've been saying it for a while. Hopefully Bates will carry the kind of clout he'll need to have Shanahan step off a little so he can get some thigns done.

[rovolution]

btw...I believe Deltha was benched near the end of this season and demoted to nickle back and the Bungles promoted Jonathan Joseph to take his spot. So it hasnt been all roses for Deltha

[Odysseus]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

We need some roughnecks. No rational person could look at that squad and call them anything but a finesse defense.

It's too bad they can't have you in the war room on draft day.

[WoodMan]

Originally Posted by rovolution

btw...I believe Deltha was benched near the end of this season and demoted to nickle back and the Bungles promoted Jonathan Joseph to take his spot. So it hasnt been all roses for Deltha

Deltha had also quit on the team when in Denver. His effort was being seriously brought into question. I never questioned keeping Herndon here before O'neil. Hind sight is always 20-20. You can only make the best guess from a forward looking perspective. I don't think Bates will be hand picking players in FA or the draft. I think it is a team management decision, with shanahan having the final say.

[-Slap-]

Originally Posted by quiettiger

It's too bad they can't have you in the war room on draft day.

Darn old credentials.



Like everybody else in the organization, I would have highfiving after the Foster/Pierce/Four D linemen draft of 2003.



Realistically, though, 2003 has proven to be one of the weakest overall drafts of the last ten years.

[SoCalBronco]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

2004: Ian Gold out, DJ Williams in. DJ was not an upgrade, or else they would not have moved him over to bring Ian back.
.

Yeah, that is outstanding reasoning, Senator.

If he wasn't an upgrade, then explain why:
1. Shanny said late in the 04 season that he was the best defensive rookie he has EVER coached.
2. He had more TFL in 2004 than any Bronco since 1991.
3. He was the first Bronco rookie to lead the team in tackles since 1972.
4. Peyton Manning went out of his way before the playoff game to praise him in the Indy Star.
5. PFW said that on many occasions he "was Denver's best defender out there" (paraphrasing, I believe it was from PFW Whispers or the team report).
6. Al Wilson said he was well on his way to a future DPOY award in his late season Q&A on the team site.

But they brought Ian back specifically because DJ wasn't an upgrade right?

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by rovolution

btw...I believe Deltha was benched near the end of this season and demoted to nickle back and the Bungles promoted Jonathan Joseph to take his spot. So it hasnt been all roses for Deltha

Even when he made the pro-bowl off of two games played against Brett Favre and Daunte Culpepper, Bengal fans were lamenting the same problems he was having here.

[fdf]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

We need some roughnecks. No rational person could look at that squad and call them anything but a finesse defense.

What? Does looking good when you whiff a tackle make you a finesse defender?

[Killericon]

Does anyone know how good of a personnel guy Bates is, or are we just assuming that he has to be better than our current crew?

[Haroldthebarrel]

Even though I think Gold has often outplayed DJ as the better linebacker the two years I have come to the conclusion that getting him back also set us back(to an extent).
DJ appeared to be a stud of dimensions as a will yet he is only above average as a sam. Perhaps it is as some say he doesnt have great instincts and therefor playing sam makes him read and not just react.
I also dont like the fact that DJ plays lighter than he did at Miami. Maybe ten more pounds would make him a lot better blitzer, I dont know but all of our linebackers are basically dead on blitzes if they are accounted for.

[azbroncfan]

You could probably break down every team in the NFL this way and have the same results. FA and the Draft are both gambles.

[OrangeShadow]

DJ should be playing weakside