Amobi Okoye - DT - Louisville

[bpc]

Well I'm up way too late and I just got a copy of the Louisville/KSU game sent to me in the mail. I couldn't sleep so I thought I would pop this game on and see whats going on with this guy.

The first thing that comes to my mind is that we should really be trading back if this is a guy that is considered a top 10 football player in this draft. I'll point out the positive first. He looks taller than 6'2" on the football field but of course, this is to scale of everybody else he is playing with. He is supposed to be 310-320 lbs. but he doesn't look like that on the field. He has a thick body but his just looks like he carries his weight really well. At his size, he could add another 20 lbs and not look fat. I would say body wise he is a lot like Tommie Harris but that is where those comparisons should end. Okoye looks like he is strong enough to play on Sunday's especially in the run game. He doesn't really do much but he has these arms that keep offensive linemen at bay and away from his body. It helps him to really read where ball-carriers are going. He is definitely better at playing the run versus the pass. He has athletic ability to really chase down the LOS and get ball-carriers on sweeps which not many DT's can do. He'll hustle in spurts and I would say he does have very good short area quickness.

On to the negative, his pass rushing moves are horrible. He is getting by right now by running into opposing players and hoping they either take a bad step and he gets to their edge or he is stronger than them/over powers his way through them. His bull rush isn't all that good because he stands straight up and loses all of his leverage. I think he can get better at this if he has a good technique coach on the DLine. He has used two moves so far and one is a limp armed rip move which is about as effective as it sounds and then his bull rush. As stated before, he stands straight up on pass plays. This makes it so easy for opposing players to step up and get inside of him and stone him at the LOS. I was expecting him to be a real run stuffing dynamo as well but he isn't on this tape that i'm watching. He has some nice qualities in the run game but if you are looking for a wide bodied defender in Okoye who is going to eat double team blocks and make life hell on opposing run offenses, I don't know if this is your guy. Bates is supposed to be in love with the big fat DT's who take up blocks so I don't know if Okoye will be his cup of tea.

The bottom line: I think that Okoye has a lot of upside. I wonder what he will look like with an additional 20 lbs on a frame that looks slender with 310 on it. I wish he showed more tenacity in terms of playing the game and I would say that he will reach a lot of that potential I just mentioned. I don't think he can help but get better with his pass rush moves but then again... he is getting stoned by schlumps at KSU, the guards in the NFL are going to stone his ass easily. He IS only 19 but this makes him a project that COULD pan out nicely in 2 or 3 years BUT you will be paying him huge bucks as a late mid-first round selection who might not play at all his first season in Denver. If you are looking for an immediate impact out of this guy, you could be waiting awhile. By that time two or three of our vets will be out of their prime or out of the league. I think that is a risky proposition. He hasn't shown me any dominance in any phase of his game or over any one player he faced off against. He projects as a every down player IF he can get his pass rushing moves down. That is a big maybe since he is really raw in that area. I think he has the ability to be a great run defender as he is naturally strong. Then again we are assuming that he will get better. Sometimes these guys with bad habits don't change. That is when it is important to have a good coach.

I'm not in love with Okoye and I personally would rather go for one of the impact safeties if they were there than reaching on this guy ESPECIALLY since they are saying this guy is a top 10-15 player in most drafts. I would rather wait until the 2nd or 3rd round for a guy like Brandon Mebane/DT/Cal who looked a lot better on film to me.

[Drek]

Okoye is getting so much press because he's a four year player who is only 20 years old. Its like a high school kid in the NBA draft, all upside. If he was there at 21 it wouldn't be a bad risk to take, but I've said it before and will say it again, this is a draft deep at the DL, we can get some very good DTs and DEs by trading our first for an '08 first and 2nd or 3rd this year. Then we can move up and get a slider in the late first/early second and still have a good number of first day picks.

[Dedhed]

I don't think you understand the scheme or something, becuase there isn't a better DT in the draft than Okoye. Here are a few things to watch for: 1-The # of times he engages at least two players, and still is moving into the backfield 2-The amount of space there is on the edges due to the attention required inside 3- Okoye dropping into coverage at 317 pounds 4-How often he's moved backwards (even when double teamed) 5-What happens when he isn't doubled.

Saying we should target Brandon Mebane later in tehe draft is exactly the reason why our DL has been terrible since before the millenium.

"Why spend a first rounder when we can get almost as good in the second?" All of our current DL are almost as good as #1 DL, but when you spread that philosophy accross the board you have a crappy line.

I would also suggest that you watch more than a single game before you pass judgement on a guy. Even though, if you pay attention to the things outlined above you'll see that even in the KSU game Okoye displays early 1st round talent.


This kid should be #1 on our draft board; he's that good. He hasn't come close to reaching his potential, and is still the best DT coming out. I would put Branch in the same class, but that's it. This kid will be 25 and a six year vet.

If we really want to improve the DL we need to draft to improve the DL. That means dumping the philosophy of looking for good value guys in the mid/late rounds and bargain bin FAs. There are a very select few players in this draft who would see the field immediately for the Broncos, and Okoye is one of them.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by Drek

Okoye is getting so much press because he's a four year player who is only 20 years old. Its like a high school kid in the NBA draft, all upside. If he was there at 21 it wouldn't be a bad risk to take, but I've said it before and will say it again, this is a draft deep at the DL, we can get some very good DTs and DEs by trading our first for an '08 first and 2nd or 3rd this year. Then we can move up and get a slider in the late first/early second and still have a good number of first day picks.

God, I am sick to death of this attitude.

[want2bAbronco2]

Whats wrong with that attitude? if we got another 2nd and 3rd we could get a DT, DE, FS, SS, and RB or OT. Not to mention if we trade Tatum etc... we could move up to get a better player at that postition. This year is really deep at DT, DE, FS, and SS. We need to get a replacement for Lynch and Ferg. I really like Brandon Merriweather Miami FS and Weddler (sp) SS. I wouldnt be upset to get Dorsey DT LSU in the 1st though.

[Rohirrim]

What worries me about the "Pick Collectors" is that if they managed to get those two number ones for 2008, next year would say, "Hey, we can trade these two number ones for two more number 3s and a top ten in 2009!" ad infinitum I guess it does absolve you of ever having to risk making a number one pick that's a flop.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by want2bAbronco2

Whats wrong with that attitude? if we got another 2nd and 3rd we could get a DT, DE, FS, SS, and RB or OT. Not to mention if we trade Tatum etc... we could move up to get a better player at that postition. This year is really deep at DT, DE, FS, and SS. We need to get a replacement for Lynch and Ferg. I really like Brandon Merriweather Miami FS and Weddler (sp) SS. I wouldnt be upset to get Dorsey DT LSU in the 1st though.

What is wrong with that attitude is that we already have a roster full of mid round value guys who display exactly the talent for where they were drafted. Let's just keep settling for bargain DL and see how much better we get in that area. This team has very few weaknesses, and they should be addressed as early in the draft as possible.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by Dedhed

I don't think you understand the scheme or something, becuase there isn't a better DT in the draft than Okoye.

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

What worries me about the "Pick Collectors" is that if they managed to get those two number ones for 2008, next year would say, "Hey, we can trade these two number ones for two more number 3s and a top ten in 2009!" ad infinitum I guess it does absolve you of ever having to risk making a number one pick that's a flop.

Its not pick collecting, its realizing that truly stand out DL talent goes top ten every year and that anything after that is a project. When a draft is as deep as this one in projects why not move back a little and grab two or three instead of investing first round money in a single guy, while also guaranteeing us the ability to trade up next year for a stand out DL should none of the projects pan out.

I had no desire to trade one of our picks last year when it was clear we had the cap money for a top guy and that Shanahan intended to go get one. Last year's draft looks like a huge success, why not seek to replicate that in '08 while taking advantage of a draft deep in projects at our biggest need position (DL)?

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by Drek

Its not pick collecting, its realizing that truly stand out DL talent goes top ten every year and that anything after that is a project. When a draft is as deep as this one in projects why not move back a little and grab two or three instead of investing first round money in a single guy, while also guaranteeing us the ability to trade up next year for a stand out DL should none of the projects pan out.

I had no desire to trade one of our picks last year when it was clear we had the cap money for a top guy and that Shanahan intended to go get one. Last year's draft looks like a huge success, why not seek to replicate that in '08 while taking advantage of a draft deep in projects at our biggest need position (DL)?

Okoye is hardly a project. He hasn't reached his potential, but that is a very different story. He would immediately upgrade our DL and would be a steal at #21. I would much prefer that than deferring yet again to bargains, and hoping one pans out. I'd also rather invest money in 1st rounders that can play than in guys that may not even make the team.
We can chose to trade back and take extra mid round players, but let's not complain when our DL doesn't improve any.

Are you implying that you think the front office doesn't seek to replicate a successful draft every year? Of course they do, but the draft is a crap shoot, and despite the occasional late round star your chances are better for finding talent in the first round.

Here are the DL "projects" we've drafted recently

Rick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Dorsett Davis, Aaron Hunt, Paul Toviessi, Clint Mitchell, Reggie Heyward, Jerry Johnson

Sorry, but if those are the types of players you're after, you can count me out.

Compare that to players recently chosen in the second half of round 1

Luis Castillo, Mike Patterson, Vince Wilfork, Marcus Tubbs, William Joseph, Tamba Hali, Mathias Kiwinuka, Erasmus James, Marcus Spears, Kenechi Udeze,
Calvin Pace, Tyler Brayton, Charles Grant

[Broncoman13]

Originally Posted by want2bAbronco2

Whats wrong with that attitude? if we got another 2nd and 3rd we could get a DT, DE, FS, SS, and RB or OT. Not to mention if we trade Tatum etc... we could move up to get a better player at that postition. This year is really deep at DT, DE, FS, and SS. We need to get a replacement for Lynch and Ferg. I really like Brandon Merriweather Miami FS and Weddler (sp) SS. I wouldnt be upset to get Dorsey DT LSU in the 1st though.

I like Meriweather's athletic skills. But, there is no way the Broncos would ever select him. He was involved in a shooting incident and the Miami Brawl. Given the recent events in Denver with DWill, I don't think there is any way the Broncos would look his way. That would certainly send the wrong message.

Also, Dorsey is going back to school.

[fontaine]

Why trade down Drek when you're the Broncos?

When was the last time we showed any ability to draft well for mid-late round talent along the DL?

It would be different if we had a history of developing that kind of talent late (such as with OL/RBs). But as far as DL is concerned Denver has been inept and incompetent in drafting talented mid to late round projects.

That last we need is another "super talented" Dorsett Davis, Clint Mitchell or Aaron Hunt, Nick Eason type.

[Drek]

Rick Eason, Bryant McNeal, Dorsett Davis, Aaron Hunt, Paul Toviessi, Clint Mitchell, Reggie Heyward, Jerry Johnson

mid 4th, late 4th, late 3rd, mid 6th, mid 2nd, 7th rounder, late 3rd, late 4th.

You see a trend there? Whole lot of second day picks. Toviessi was the highest pick of the bunch, his career ended due to injury, Hayward was a successful 3rd round pick and Dorsett Davis was the next to last pick of the third round. If you'd stop homering on for your favorite first rounders and read what I'm saying you'd see that what I'm suggesting is using this deep DL draft to take several first day, early second to mid 3rd, DLs, much like we did with CBs two years ago when we last traded our 1st rounder for a future pick.

By the way, McNeal, Eason, and Mitchell are all still in the NFL, not bad for second day picks.

Originally Posted by fontaine

Why trade down Drek when you're the Broncos?

When was the last time we showed any ability to draft well for mid-late round talent along the DL?

When was the last time we showed any ability to draft well at DB before '05? What changed in '05? It was a deep talent pool of DBs that would last through most of the first day so Shanahan made sure to grab a few of them.

In this draft we could see guys like Tank Tyler, Adam Carriker, Quinn Pittcock, Jarvis Moss, Charles Johnson, etc. slide to the late first or early second. In the 3rd we could get experienced DTs like Harrell or Mebane or a great project like Alama-Francis or Baraka Atkins. It just takes a little position jockeying, trading our first for an '08 first and late 2nd/early third, then parlaying a late second and early third into a late first/early second. Grab a slider and get the best available through the rest of the draft. Then we get someone else's lottery ticket for '08 and can assure ourselves of some elite talent next year.

[Elway777]

If the Bronco's trade down it will not be for Mid round picks but for a early second round and Early 3 round pick. Maybe trade down for a late first and late 3 round pick. Useless a great player fall to the Broncos then it would be O.K to trade down. If Okoye makes it to the Broncos then I think he would be a solid pick for the Broncos.I also like Pitcock and He would also be a solid pick for the Broncos. If the Broncos draft de I like Woodley.

[want2bAbronco2]

Originally Posted by BroncoMan13

I like Meriweather's athletic skills. But, there is no way the Broncos would ever select him. He was involved in a shooting incident and the Miami Brawl. Given the recent events in Denver with DWill, I don't think there is any way the Broncos would look his way. That would certainly send the wrong message.

Also, Dorsey is going back to school.

I knew about the brawl, not shooting =/ that sucks. I really think he could be a steal in rnd 2. I didn't know Dorsey went back, thought he was a SR... oh damn.

[bpc]

Originally Posted by Dedhed

I don't think you understand the scheme or something, becuase there isn't a better DT in the draft than Okoye. Here are a few things to watch for: 1-The # of times he engages at least two players, and still is moving into the backfield 2-The amount of space there is on the edges due to the attention required inside 3- Okoye dropping into coverage at 317 pounds 4-How often he's moved backwards (even when double teamed) 5-What happens when he isn't doubled.

Well I'm going to be respectful here. I played football for 10 years, all throughout high school and college at the University of Hawaii and another I-AA school. I know what defensive fronts are, I know where Okoye was always lined up on the film. I watched Okoye as well as one person could watch. Honestly, he engaged two offensive linemen only once from what I saw on a pass play. He did not move them into the backfield. On passing downs he stands straight up. Although I will say that he is tougher against the run, I never saw him double teamed, not once. I'm not trying to tear down the guy. If he was the best, I would want Denver to draft him but he just didn't look the way to me. He does have potential. To me though he is a tad overated from the film I watched. If he is drafted top 10, it really says something about the talent in this draft and we should trade back.

Saying we should target Brandon Mebane later in tehe draft is exactly the reason why our DL has been terrible since before the millenium.

Have you watched him play? He plays a lot stronger than Okoye. They are two different players. I would say Mebane is more of a Booger McFarland type, Okoye is built more like a Tommie Harris but don't confuse the two coming out of college... the production and motor seem much different from what I saw.

"Why spend a first rounder when we can get almost as good in the second?" All of our current DL are almost as good as #1 DL, but when you spread that philosophy accross the board you have a crappy line.

I'm rooting for multiple 1st day selections on the DL. The value between mid-1st/late-1st through 3rd round picks in this draft though is not going to be that different. You must find value.

I would also suggest that you watch more than a single game before you pass judgement on a guy. Even though, if you pay attention to the things outlined above you'll see that even in the KSU game Okoye displays early 1st round talent.

I've only seen one game, true. Hopefully I will see more. With what I do I most likely will. I'm not just tearing on Okoye. I"ve been critical of other players as well... most recently Marshawn Lynch. We have to be smart about these picks. It is imperitive that we get this right. If Denver drafts Okoye, they have to realize he will not contribute this next season is a full capacity if at all. He is more raw than T. Pryce when he came out in 1997 and he didn't play until the last game of the season.

This kid should be #1 on our draft board; he's that good. He hasn't come close to reaching his potential, and is still the best DT coming out. I would put Branch in the same class, but that's it. This kid will be 25 and a six year vet.

I haven't watched Branch all that much, a little in the USC tape and I have some being mailed to me as we speak. From what I saw though, the two are not in the same class. Nobody is in the same class as Branch. It is literally Branch and everybody else. In that case, we cannot overvalue a player by position. That would be foolish. There are three very good safeties out there that we would pass up in that scenario which would be stupid.

If we really want to improve the DL we need to draft to improve the DL. That means dumping the philosophy of looking for good value guys in the mid/late rounds and bargain bin FAs. There are a very select few players in this draft who would see the field immediately for the Broncos, and Okoye is one of them.

Response is in the orange.

[mattob14]

bpc, any chance you still have ties to anyone at Hawaii? I'm wondering about Ikaika Alama-Francis and his injury. Have you watched any film on him or heard anything about his injury? He's an intriguing prospect on the DL.

[bpc]

Originally Posted by mattob14

bpc, any chance you still have ties to anyone at Hawaii? I'm wondering about Ikaika Alama-Francis and his injury. Have you watched any film on him or heard anything about his injury? He's an intriguing prospect on the DL.

I still have some ties as some of the players I was with are working in the film deparment or various offices on the team. I talk to the coaches as well.

From what I've heard he has a partially torn pec and he is out for the rest of the all-star games. He is resting up for either the Combine if he can perform or his pro day. Usually UH players will participate in USC's pro day or that is what they have been doing over the past two or three years. They think he should be good to go. He is basically a guy that has a ton of potential, "great body" for the position and is still growing. Then again keep in mind that he has never dominated either. One of those reasons is that he is playing a DE position in a 3-4 defense which causes the DE to have a lot of responsibilities taking up blocks, read and reacting. Its not like a 4-3 where the DE's can just pin their ears back and go.

I have film coming in on him as well and I will be posting it as soon as I break him down.

This is my favorite time of year.

Any other info you need?

[mattob14]

Thanks bpc! He's a guy I haven't really been able to watch, but he gets good marks from everyone who's watched him on film and you can't ignore the size/speed, especially after he put on 30-40 pounds this year. His stats weren't great, but like you said, he has other responsibilities in the 3-4. Good news on the injury, I just hope he doesn't rise to the point where we won't have a shot at him in round 2.

[bpc]

For what its worth, Kiper was the first to really burst him on the scene about a month/month and a half ago putting him on his top 25. Since then everybody has had him rising on their mocks following suit. Funny how that happens. THere are a lot of good players coming out with triangle numbers that are eye popping. The key is actually finding the football players out of that mix. Hopefully we will find a couple that can impact us immediately.

[Drek]

Originally Posted by bpc

I have film coming in on him as well and I will be posting it as soon as I break him down.

This is my favorite time of year.

Any other info you need?

Cool, looking forward to it. He could be a real good sleeper pick in this draft.

[mattob14]

Kiper was definitely ahead of the pack on that one. Since then, I know Scott Wright reviewed film and basically agreed with Mel and a few others have started to sing his praises. The film reviews actually excite me more than the size/speed combo, but those numbers don't hurt at all. I don't know about top 25, but I'd love to see him picked in round 2.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by bpc

Well I'm going to be respectful here. I played football for 10 years, all throughout high school and college at the University of Hawaii and another I-AA school. I know what defensive fronts are, I know where Okoye was always lined up on the film. I watched Okoye as well as one person could watch. Honestly, he engaged two offensive linemen only once from what I saw on a pass play. He did not move them into the backfield. On passing downs he stands straight up. Although I will say that he is tougher against the run, I never saw him double teamed, not once. I'm not trying to tear down the guy. If he was the best, I would want Denver to draft him but he just didn't look the way to me. He does have potential. To me though he is a tad overated from the film I watched. If he is drafted top 10, it really says something about the talent in this draft and we should trade back.

I've only seen the highlights of the KSU game, but I saw him doubled at least once, and in the backfield more than a few times. With 57 seconds left in the 3rd the KSU LT looks inside to double Okoye, and the DE is left with a free run. The QB is forced up in the pocket and Okoye gets the sack. The Miami game is impressive. I'm not recommending spending a top 10 selection on him, but I would love to get him at #21. I'm a fan of trading back only if you have numerous positions to address, but I don't think the Broncos are in that predicament at all. I think with improved line play on both sides of the ball we have the talent to make a run. Otherwise you're just drafting more players than you can field.

Have you watched him play? He plays a lot stronger than Okoye. They are two different players. I would say Mebane is more of a Booger McFarland type, Okoye is built more like a Tommie Harris but don't confuse the two coming out of college... the production and motor seem much different from what I saw.

I've seen very little of Mebane, and I've liked what little I've seen. However, I think there's a reason why one is a projected 1st rounder and the other a projected 3rd. I'de love Mebane with the Skins pick, BTW.

I'm rooting for multiple 1st day selections on the DL. The value between mid-1st/late-1st through 3rd round picks in this draft though is not going to be that different. You must find value.

I love value, but you need to find players first. Getting good value doesn't mean anything if it doesn't make your team better. Again, I would put a higher onus on value if we needed to address a number of spots.

I've only seen one game, true. Hopefully I will see more. With what I do I most likely will. I'm not just tearing on Okoye. I"ve been critical of other players as well... most recently Marshawn Lynch. We have to be smart about these picks. It is imperitive that we get this right. If Denver drafts Okoye, they have to realize he will not contribute this next season is a full capacity if at all. He is more raw than T. Pryce when he came out in 1997 and he didn't play until the last game of the season.

I'm with you 100% on Lynch. I don't think he represents any value to the Broncos, but I'm not with you on Okoye. I think he's an immediate upgrade to our DL.

I haven't watched Branch all that much, a little in the USC tape and I have some being mailed to me as we speak. From what I saw though, the two are not in the same class. Nobody is in the same class as Branch. It is literally Branch and everybody else. In that case, we cannot overvalue a player by position. That would be foolish. There are three very good safeties out there that we would pass up in that scenario which would be stupid.

Branch is certainly the most polished and NFL ready DT coming out, and I wouldn't call Okoye a better DT right now, but I think in 2 years Okoye will be a better player. I agree that it would be difficult to pass up a player like Reggie Nelson or Landry, but draft records bear out the fact that the vast majority of lineman on both sides of the ball are found very early in the draft. I think it's easier to find DB sleepers than it is 300+ pound men who are truly athletic.
[/QUOTE]

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

What worries me about the "Pick Collectors" is that if they managed to get those two number ones for 2008, next year would say, "Hey, we can trade these two number ones for two more number 3s and a top ten in 2009!" ad infinitum I guess it does absolve you of ever having to risk making a number one pick that's a flop.

Not really. Most who want it know this team will never be in position to get an elite talent in the draft unless something out of the ordinary happens with this team, or they possess another team's 1st round pick. This was a bad year for the Broncos and they are picking 21st. I'd rather not have a 1st for one season with a couple extra picks and 2 1sts the next year that can be used to move up, instead of hoping they get lucky twice in the 20's and find someone who no one thought would be that good.

[Atlas]

Originally Posted by Dedhed

I don't think you understand the scheme or something, becuase there isn't a better DT in the draft than Okoye. Here are a few things to watch for: 1-The # of times he engages at least two players, and still is moving into the backfield 2-The amount of space there is on the edges due to the attention required inside 3- Okoye dropping into coverage at 317 pounds 4-How often he's moved backwards (even when double teamed) 5-What happens when he isn't doubled.

Saying we should target Brandon Mebane later in tehe draft is exactly the reason why our DL has been terrible since before the millenium.

"Why spend a first rounder when we can get almost as good in the second?" All of our current DL are almost as good as #1 DL, but when you spread that philosophy accross the board you have a crappy line.

I would also suggest that you watch more than a single game before you pass judgement on a guy. Even though, if you pay attention to the things outlined above you'll see that even in the KSU game Okoye displays early 1st round talent.


This kid should be #1 on our draft board; he's that good. He hasn't come close to reaching his potential, and is still the best DT coming out. I would put Branch in the same class, but that's it. This kid will be 25 and a six year vet.

If we really want to improve the DL we need to draft to improve the DL. That means dumping the philosophy of looking for good value guys in the mid/late rounds and bargain bin FAs. There are a very select few players in this draft who would see the field immediately for the Broncos, and Okoye is one of them.

I like this kid. Is he going to be there at 21? I think he will go earlier.

[Jens1893]

Originally Posted by Atlas

I like this kid. Is he going to be there at 21? I think he will go earlier.

Earliest I´ve seen him go is #9