Should the United States

[Bronx33]

Fixed it's **** up in iraq and leave it's goverment in the best postion to maintain control of the country and please no (it's bushes fault) why should we fix it comments, we are all in this together no matter what you say (This is a doing the right thing poll nothing more nothing less)

[Spider]

I wish it was that simple , no question about us needing to get the **** out of there , big question is when ?
The new plan is worse then the old plan .........
We are in one hellva fix ....... between Iraq and a hard place
I think we should be out of there and have a fowarding adress in 6 months

[Bronx33]

Iam not for crapping on the innocent population and those are the ones that will pay if we pulled out today, Iam all for leaving the goverment standing on two feet not it's knees.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

Iam not for crapping on the innocent population and those are the ones that will pay if we pulled out today, Iam all for leaving the goverment standing on two feet not it's knees.

yeah but if they cant fight for their own damn country , then do they deserve a decent country ?
I said along time ago , you cant force democracy on these turds , they have no national pride , just religion ...........

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

yeah but if they cant fight for their own damn country , then do they deserve a decent country ?
I said along time ago , you cant force democracy on these turds , they have no national pride , just religion ...........

These folks have been under someones foot for their whole lives they know nothing else but pain and suffering (give them the best possiable chance) at a better life that's the least we can do after bushes cluster **** approach.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

These folks have been under someones foot for their whole lives they know nothing else but pain and suffering (give them the best possiable chance) at a better life that's the least we can do after bushes cluster **** approach.

well this sounds cold hearted , but they chose to live under someones foot , they could have escaped if they wanted to , let me ask you , if what was going on in Iraq was going here , would you put up with it ? i wouldnt

[Rohirrim]

Iraq is a lost cause. The Shiite power base has already taken over and is actively working against U.S. interests inside and outside of the Maliki government. Maliki will not say no to them. The truth is, he can't say no to them. It's over. Get out now or let another 1,000 Americans get killed and then pull out a year from now. It will make no difference to the outcome.

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

well this sounds cold hearted , but they chose to live under someones foot , they could have escaped if they wanted to , let me ask you , if what was going on in Iraq was going here , would you put up with it ? i wouldnt

That's your opinion spider but you will probably find most were too poor to do anything about it and were left to the brutal whims* of a dictators. As for the question (yes) i would do what i could it doesn't mean i would be able too. You are assuming you understand these folks positions and their ability to do what you say ( is so easy) just maybe spider it wasn't so easy.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

That's your opinion spider but you will probably find most were too poor to do anything about it and were left to the brutal whims* of a dictators. As for the question (yes) i would do what i could it doesn't mean i would be able too. You are assuming you understand these folks positions and their ability to do what you say ( is so easy) just maybe spider it wasn't so easy.

Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy , but would say what is going on in Iraq right now backs up my theory more ..........these people only want one thing , Religion .......... they wont fight for Iraq , care less , they will fight for their religion .............

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

Nothing worthwhile ever comes easy , but would say what is going on in Iraq right now backs up my theory more ..........these people only want one thing , Religion .......... they wont fight for Iraq , care less , they will fight for their religion .............

The radicals are making it a fight for there religion not the moderates in iraq, your are generalizing all of them into one group. The difference is the quite group is afraid to speak out (and understandably so) death is a big deterent those are the people i know can save and rebuild iraq. Those are the people that deserve a chance and we can help them get a foothold. Bush has finally pointed this in the right direction were it should have been pointed from day one, the insurgency never would have gotten a foothold. But sadly it was handled wrong by bush allowing the insurgency to grow, now is that the quite ones fault? nope it's our fault. We can leave em no it isn't fair to those in iraq that know what they want (they just need a foothold) can we attempt to make good out of bad? or do we tuck our tails and run and watch iraq turn into a terrorist cluster**** which will no doubt affect us again on our soil.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

The radicals are making it a fight for there religion not the moderates in iraq, your are generalizing all of them into one group. The difference is the quite group is afraid to speak out (and understandably so) death is a big deterent those are the people i know can save and rebuild iraq. Those are the people that deserve a chance and we can help them get a foothold. Bush has finally pointed this in the right direction were it should have been pointed from day one, the insurgency never would have gotten a foothold. But sadly it was handled wrong by bush allowing the insurgency to grow, now is that the quite ones fault? nope it's our fault. We can leave em no it isn't fair to those in iraq that know what they want (they just need a foothold) can we attempt to make good out of bad? or do we tuck our tails and run and watch iraq turn into a terrorist cluster**** which will no doubt affect us again on our soil.

maybe so , but the lack of action by the moderates speak just as loud as the actions of the radicals ...........
it isnt an insurgency , never was , it is a civil war , 2 factions fighting for power , just cause they dont wear blue and gray doesnt mean they cant have a civil war ...........and what is their civil war ? Sunni vs ****te , religious factions ..........

[Spider]

and Bust couldnt point us in the right direction if he had a compass and a GPS system ............Tom tom couldnt even help that bastard

[bendog]

I'm afraid I agree with Rohirrm. I wish I didnt. But the problem with the notion "of leaving the govt standing on it's own two feet" is that the govt has already fallen on it's face.

Bushii is just setting the stage for the exit. Telling all-ah-mucky he must crack down on Sadr to keep US support. Now the question is how will Rove blame this on the democrats. Remember in Vietnam, we all knew that Nixon/Ford's policy of vietnamization was simply a pull out with a face on it. We negotiated a truce everyone knew Ho would ignore the minute we were gone, and we knew the ARVN wouldn't stand and fight even when we had 500K troops there. But the gop line quickly became, the dems wouldn't fund the aid we promised the South, so it's their fault. Of course the dems got us there in the first place. But the dems show no indication of pulling the money.

[bendog]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

maybe so , but the lack of action by the moderates speak just as loud as the actions of the radicals ...........
it isnt an insurgency , never was , it is a civil war , 2 factions fighting for power , just cause they dont wear blue and gray doesnt mean they cant have a civil war ...........and what is their civil war ? Sunni vs ****te , religious factions ..........

Every sunni who even spoke of peace has been killed by Sadr or al queda. Any moderate left alive has split if he had the means to do so.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by bendog

Every sunni who even spoke of peace has been killed by Sadr or al queda. Any moderate left alive has split if he had the means to do so.

I didnt say it was easy

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

maybe so , but the lack of action by the moderates speak just as loud as the actions of the radicals ...........
it isnt an insurgency , never was , it is a civil war , 2 factions fighting for power , just cause they dont wear blue and gray doesnt mean they cant have a civil war ...........and what is their civil war ? Sunni vs ****te , religious factions ..........

Locally in the states i understand ) it but you have to understand why they (in iraq) or the middle east have a problem speaking outloud. Those are the important ones IMO, if they speak out the others will follow death is a big deterent even more so when your own don't care who they take out in the process. Insurgency/ civil war (call it what ya want) there are hostages being held silent in this cluster**** and we are yet to hear their voice and if we pull out (we never will) do the job as best as possiable (now) or pay out the nose for it down the line. It will affect both sides the radicals don't care about anything other than their warped agenda and if that is allowed to settle in (we are all ******) in the long run.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

Locally in the states i understand ) it but you have to understand why they (in iraq) or the middle east have a problem speaking outloud. Those are the important ones IMO, if they speak out the others will follow death is a big deterent even more so when your own don't care who they take out in the process. Insurgency/ civil war (call it what ya want) there are hostages being held silent in this cluster**** and we are yet to hear their voice and if we pull out (we never will) do the job as best as possiable (now) or pay out the nose for it down the line. It will affect both sides the radicals don't care about anything other than their warped agenda and if that is allowed to settle in (we are all ******) in the long run.

you are right ............ THEY have a problem , how long do we ask Americans to die defending a bunch of pussies that wont fight back ?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Bush's Iraq is done, cooked. Who wants more American blood and lives on their hands for continuing this nightmare?

With the money alone this failed invasion and occupation cost we could be far down the road to energy independence.

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by §Pide®

you are right ............ THEY have a problem , how long do we ask Americans to die defending a bunch of pussies that wont fight back ?

Well hopefully the job will be finally pointed in the right direction if isn't it too late? but i will say if it isn't allowed too get out of the gate all those brave servicemen and women (died for nothing) it seems some just want this to fail just so the finger can be pointed solely at bush, that may be fixed IMO, (LETS JUST TRY TO FIX IT!) it isn't easy it isn't popular way but it does make the most sense in the long run for all those envolved. The locals just need a foothold alot are far to scared to speak out they need to see some progress in the right direction then like a little kid (let em walk) the sooner we get there the sooner our troops get home. I want em home just as much as anybody but we can't leave this job completely ****** up and i thing bush gets it finally.

[TailgateNut]

Regardless of what we do, Iraq will NEVER stand on it's own. It's a country so divided, it cannot be untited through democracy.
I we leave, we'll deal with the issues we helped create, and if we stay we'll deal with the issues we helped create. It's a matter of how much money and how many lives do we want to Donate to Iraq!

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by Bronco_Beerslug

Bush's Iraq is done, cooked. Who wants more American blood and lives on their hands for continuing this nightmare?

With the money alone this failed invasion and occupation cost we could be far down the road to energy independence.

Fine you are intitled to your opinion (give up) cut the loses i fully understand your point of view. I just want to see something good come out of the ones already lost if you want to live with that the rest of your life (ok).

[Bronx33]

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

Regardless of what we do, Iraq will NEVER stand on it's own. It's a country so divided, it cannot be untited through democracy.
I we leave, we'll deal with the issues we helped create, and if we stay we'll deal with the issues we helped create. It's a matter of how much money and how many lives do we want to Donate to Iraq!

If you have your way (we will never know) that much is fact and i can say that with 100% accuracy.

[bendog]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

Locally in the states i understand ) it but you have to understand why they (in iraq) or the middle east have a problem speaking outloud. Those are the important ones IMO, if they speak out the others will follow death is a big deterent even more so when your own don't care who they take out in the process. Insurgency/ civil war (call it what ya want) there are hostages being held silent in this cluster**** and we are yet to hear their voice and if we pull out (we never will) do the job as best as possiable (now) or pay out the nose for it down the line. It will affect both sides the radicals don't care about anything other than their warped agenda and if that is allowed to settle in (we are all ******) in the long run.

I'm curious as to what we can do ... now. They have an elected govt which the maj and president have clear known ties to Iran and Sadr's death squads ... in fact we know the death squads are embedded in their police. And all-ah-mucky's govt thus far has shown no indications of either breaking with Sadr and Iran or reforming the police. In fact, it appears that if he tried, assuming he has any desire to try, he'd be replaced ... perhaps terminated, even with an electric drill.

The last political solution was to forge a coalition of non-Sadr/Iranian dominated shiaa milita and the sunni. But Sistani who is presumably a moderate shot that down, saying all the shiaa had to be united. What that means practically is that Sadr can continue ethnic cleansing.

Bushii may be preparing to cut and run, or he may be preparing to withdraw the army/marines to defensible positions and stop patrolling ... to protect the borders and let the sunni shiaa square accounts, and then see if after they've ethnically cleansed themselves they can do a deal.

[Spider]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

Well hopefully the job will be finally pointed in the right direction if isn't it too late? but i will say if it isn't allowed too get out of the gate all those brave servicemen and women (died for nothing) it seems some just want this to fail just so the finger can be pointed solely at bush, that may be fixed IMO, (LETS JUST TRY TO FIX IT!) it isn't easy it isn't popular way but it does make the most sense in the long run for all those envolved. The locals just need a foothold alot are far to scared to speak out they need to see some progress in the right direction then like a little kid (let em walk) the sooner we get there the sooner our troops get home. I want em home just as much as anybody but we can't leave this job completely ****** up and i thing bush gets it finally.

it isnt that people wanted the US to fail , most saw the plan was screwed ..........Situation like this , you have to kill the people or leave em be , bust didnt adhere to that , so now we are billions in Debt and putting americans at risk ...........and now 4 years later he has a plan ?

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Originally Posted by Bronx33

Fine you are intitled to your opinion (give up) cut the loses i fully understand your point of view. I just want to see something good come out of the ones already lost if you want to live with that the rest of your life (ok).

This is Bush's and the Neocon spiel, it's all that's left after sacrificing over 3000 American's and maiming over 20,000 more. One more time, it is ALREADY a hellhole, we created it. They are involved in civil war, they hate each other but hate us MORE.