Manning and 3-4 defense - The Orange Mane

BigAl56 · 10-30-2006, 06:26 AM

As I've said before, the only teams who have consistent success against Peyton primarily have a 3-4 base defense - Jax, Bal, NE, Pitt. We have 4 down lineman who cannot get to Manning after 6 seconds. I do not care who is in the secondary - no one can stop harrison and wayne for 5-6 seconds; they are entirely too good. Think back to Manning against NE and Pitt - he pisses his pants b/c he is getting hit in the chops almost every play. We didn't even attempt to hit the guy yesterday. He becomes so ineffective when you get to him and hit him.

OrangeShadow · 10-30-2006, 06:28 AM

would the 3-4 utilize our LBs as good as the system we are running now?

Mile High Shack · 10-30-2006, 06:30 AM

not even a 3-4

just try to change up coverages, try to put some pressure on him, hit him in the mouth, make him scramble

DO NOT SIT BACK IN ZONE ALL DAY LONG

BigAl56 · 10-30-2006, 06:32 AM

absolutely agree, even if you don't sack him as you were eluding to - hit the guy - drive him into the ground. Hell, any QB will have a great amount of success if they are allowed to sit in the pocket for that amount of time (i.e. trent green over the past 5 years).

Mile High Shack · 10-30-2006, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl56

absolutely agree, even if you don't sack him as you were eluding to - hit the guy - drive him into the ground. Hell, any QB will have a great amount of success if they are allowed to sit in the pocket for that amount of time (i.e. trent green over the past 5 years).

jam the receivers to try and mess up the timing

do anything

do not just sit back there and let him do what he does over and over and over again

-Slap- · 10-30-2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigAl56

As I've said before, the only teams who have consistent success against Peyton primarily have a 3-4 base defense - Jax, Bal, NE, Pitt. We have 4 down lineman who cannot get to Manning after 6 seconds. I do not care who is in the secondary - no one can stop harrison and wayne for 5-6 seconds; they are entirely too good. Think back to Manning against NE and Pitt - he pisses his pants b/c he is getting hit in the chops almost every play. We didn't even attempt to hit the guy yesterday. He becomes so ineffective when you get to him and hit him.

Jacksonville and Baltimore run the 4-3, but I agree an aggressive 3-4 scheme is Peyton's biggest weakness.

Rohirrim · 10-30-2006, 07:18 AM

Unfortunately, if the Broncos moved to install a 3/4, they'd have it up and running just about the time Payaton retires.

BigAl56 · 10-30-2006, 07:21 AM

baltimore runs a 3-4. they have those tweener guys like suggs and scott who sometimes rush the passer making it appear as a 4 down line, but they have a 3-4 base

BigAl56 · 10-30-2006, 07:22 AM

well i guess suggs is predominatly a d end so you are right - it's just that he is much like some of the NE linebackers very athletic and can drop into coverage

s0phr0syne · 10-30-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OrangeShadow

would the 3-4 utilize our LBs as good as the system we are running now?

Although our LBs would be playing different roles, I think it would allow us to definitely try some different things. We don't have the personel to run the 3-4 all the time, but I think we should definitely try giving different looks.

Yesterday this wouldn't have mattered, but with Warren in the middle, we have the kind of Nose Tackle that we'd need to anchor the middle. With Ebenezer and either Veal or Myers or Dumervil acting as the ends, we could choose to drop Lang back as an OLB (something he doesn't like too much from his experience in Cleveland). Or we could put Wilson and Webster/Burns on the field as our MLBs with Gold and DJ on the outside. I mean, there's a ton of possibilities and with the talent that we have at LB I think it's worth at least experimenting with.

Smiling Assassin27 · 10-30-2006, 07:58 AM

the blue print for beating the colts exists--the chargers unveiled it last year. unfortunately, coyer's not that innovative and shanny wasn't that visionary to start implementing it over the last year and offseason. we don't have the personnel to make it work for an entire game but situationally, we can throw in a guy like chukwurah or even dumerville as an extra LB.

ScottXray · 10-30-2006, 08:09 AM

We don't need to go to a 3-4! We need a pass rush!

And even if we didn't have that, we still could have done something on defense....disguise the defense! That is why Peyton does poorly against the 3-4..he doesn't know where the pressure will be coming from.

If we would simply MOVE pre-snap...let P do his audible thing, then MOVE again late...it would make him change the play or shift to the run . In our house with the 12th man we should have stopped that team, since the Indy O couldn't hear the changes.

By playing vanilla we LET them do what they wanted...choose the weak spot every play.

Terrible Defensive play...Poor scheme. You could see the confusion on the Defenses side every snap...including Bailey. The entire Defense, including the linebackers, played like poop all day. Don't blame Dwill....Coyer left him out there with no help, and Ferguson and Lynch blew their rotations repeatedly. Coyer needs an ass kicking by Shanahan!

boltaneer · 10-30-2006, 08:27 AM

The Charger's defense has done pretty well against Manning in the past couple of years (both on the road) and I noticed that they seemed to play a lot more man coverage rather than zone. I'm not sure what the Broncos tended to do yesterday but as it's already been stated, you have to pressure Peyton. If you get burnt by the blitz than so be it but you can't let him sit back there and pick apart your defense. I heard that there were only seven or eight blitzes called yesterday. The Chargers brought at least an extra LB on the majority of the plays.

Jacksonville is probably the 4-3 team that gives him the most trouble. They have a pretty good back seven but I'd probably rate Denver's as stronger but their d-line has some real studs on it and that seems to be the key to their success against Peyton.

rbackfactory80 · 10-30-2006, 09:03 AM

The blueprint is pressure, nothing more nothing less.

Barry Ramey · 10-30-2006, 09:21 AM

The defenses that do well against Manning also have big d-lines, which the Broncos do not have. To run a 3-4 defense, you need 3 DL that are big enough to occupy blockers so your LB's are able to run free and the OLB's are able to get pressure on the QB since are coming on the rush most times. The Broncos do not have the DL to run the 3-4 and once again, that's the defense the Browns wanted to go to and why those DL are now on the Broncos.

Getting heat on Manning is key, but so is not playing in such soft zones you're not constantly allowing 15-20 yard completions before a defender even enters the picture.

I have no faith in Coyer stopping a good passing team. He counts on teams making mistakes and yes, bad teams will many times, but can't count on good teams doing that, but he seems to think going from the extreme of blitzing a lot to hardly ever blitzing and doing so with defenders starting so far back, they dodn't even get near the QB before the ball is out. His zones and blitzes just don't fool the good offenses.

10-30-2006, 06:26 AM	#1
BigAl56 Rookie Attempt more 3-4 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 86 Adopt-a-Bronco: Al Wilson	Manning and 3-4 defense As I've said before, the only teams who have consistent success against Peyton primarily have a 3-4 base defense - Jax, Bal, NE, Pitt. We have 4 down lineman who cannot get to Manning after 6 seconds. I do not care who is in the secondary - no one can stop harrison and wayne for 5-6 seconds; they are entirely too good. Think back to Manning against NE and Pitt - he pisses his pants b/c he is getting hit in the chops almost every play. We didn't even attempt to hit the guy yesterday. He becomes so ineffective when you get to him and hit him.

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10-30-2006, 06:28 AM	#2
OrangeShadow armed and dangerous Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 6,771	would the 3-4 utilize our LBs as good as the system we are running now?

10-30-2006, 06:30 AM	#3
Mile High Shack Ring of Famer Cock-a-doodle-do Join Date: May 2001 Location: Somewhere Posts: 17,010	not even a 3-4 just try to change up coverages, try to put some pressure on him, hit him in the mouth, make him scramble DO NOT SIT BACK IN ZONE ALL DAY LONG

10-30-2006, 06:32 AM	#4
BigAl56 Rookie Attempt more 3-4 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 86 Adopt-a-Bronco: Al Wilson	absolutely agree, even if you don't sack him as you were eluding to - hit the guy - drive him into the ground. Hell, any QB will have a great amount of success if they are allowed to sit in the pocket for that amount of time (i.e. trent green over the past 5 years).

10-30-2006, 07:18 AM	#7
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,854	Unfortunately, if the Broncos moved to install a 3/4, they'd have it up and running just about the time Payaton retires.

10-30-2006, 07:21 AM	#8
BigAl56 Rookie Attempt more 3-4 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 86 Adopt-a-Bronco: Al Wilson	baltimore runs a 3-4. they have those tweener guys like suggs and scott who sometimes rush the passer making it appear as a 4 down line, but they have a 3-4 base

10-30-2006, 07:22 AM	#9
BigAl56 Rookie Attempt more 3-4 Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 86 Adopt-a-Bronco: Al Wilson	well i guess suggs is predominatly a d end so you are right - it's just that he is much like some of the NE linebackers very athletic and can drop into coverage

10-30-2006, 07:58 AM	#11
Smiling Assassin27 STOP! KIPER TIME! Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: In a van down by the river Posts: 10,983 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	the blue print for beating the colts exists--the chargers unveiled it last year. unfortunately, coyer's not that innovative and shanny wasn't that visionary to start implementing it over the last year and offseason. we don't have the personnel to make it work for an entire game but situationally, we can throw in a guy like chukwurah or even dumerville as an extra LB.

10-30-2006, 08:09 AM	#12
ScottXray Opinionated A**** Love Me some PANCAKES!** Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: PDX (Portland OR) Posts: 4,663 Adopt-a-Bronco: J. D. Walton	We don't need to go to a 3-4! We need a pass rush! And even if we didn't have that, we still could have done something on defense....disguise the defense! That is why Peyton does poorly against the 3-4..he doesn't know where the pressure will be coming from. If we would simply MOVE pre-snap...let P do his audible thing, then MOVE again late...it would make him change the play or shift to the run . In our house with the 12th man we should have stopped that team, since the Indy O couldn't hear the changes. By playing vanilla we LET them do what they wanted...choose the weak spot every play. Terrible Defensive play...Poor scheme. You could see the confusion on the Defenses side every snap...including Bailey. The entire Defense, including the linebackers, played like poop all day. Don't blame Dwill....Coyer left him out there with no help, and Ferguson and Lynch blew their rotations repeatedly. Coyer needs an ass kicking by Shanahan!

10-30-2006, 08:27 AM	#13
boltaneer 17 ATTA BABY! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: America's Finest City Posts: 4,068	The Charger's defense has done pretty well against Manning in the past couple of years (both on the road) and I noticed that they seemed to play a lot more man coverage rather than zone. I'm not sure what the Broncos tended to do yesterday but as it's already been stated, you have to pressure Peyton. If you get burnt by the blitz than so be it but you can't let him sit back there and pick apart your defense. I heard that there were only seven or eight blitzes called yesterday. The Chargers brought at least an extra LB on the majority of the plays. Jacksonville is probably the 4-3 team that gives him the most trouble. They have a pretty good back seven but I'd probably rate Denver's as stronger but their d-line has some real studs on it and that seems to be the key to their success against Peyton.

10-30-2006, 09:03 AM	#14
rbackfactory80 Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 4,617	The blueprint is pressure, nothing more nothing less.

10-30-2006, 09:21 AM	#15
Barry Ramey Ring of Famer Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,700	The defenses that do well against Manning also have big d-lines, which the Broncos do not have. To run a 3-4 defense, you need 3 DL that are big enough to occupy blockers so your LB's are able to run free and the OLB's are able to get pressure on the QB since are coming on the rush most times. The Broncos do not have the DL to run the 3-4 and once again, that's the defense the Browns wanted to go to and why those DL are now on the Broncos. Getting heat on Manning is key, but so is not playing in such soft zones you're not constantly allowing 15-20 yard completions before a defender even enters the picture. I have no faith in Coyer stopping a good passing team. He counts on teams making mistakes and yes, bad teams will many times, but can't count on good teams doing that, but he seems to think going from the extreme of blitzing a lot to hardly ever blitzing and doing so with defenders starting so far back, they dodn't even get near the QB before the ball is out. His zones and blitzes just don't fool the good offenses.