free speech in europe

[yavoon]

someone just sent me this and I thought it was crazy.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1392

can there even be considered free speech in europe anymore?

[BKK]

Terrorist and Muslim fanatics do not recognize free speach or human rights. That is why they have to go.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by BKK

Terrorist and Muslim fanatics do not recognize free speach or human rights. That is why they have to go.

I've looked for more stuff, as far as I can tell no1 is standing up for the professor. the paper has already gone on al jazeera to apologize. europe is just standing by while the value of freedom of speech is not whittled away, its being lopped off.

[loborugger]

IMHO, they still have the freedom of speech, as there is no govt laws against what they said. What they lack is the feeling of safety in their own country from a bunch of armed young thugs native to another land that have no compunction with wounding/maiming/killing people that disagree with them. How long will it be before this tide of human refuse washes on our shores? Govts seem helpless to stop this crap. Developed countries need cheap labor that is provided by immigrants and its almost impossible to filter out the garbage. If you go vigilant, you are subject to the same laws that the thugs are, and being a native, will probably get caught. Worse, you will be seen as one of them. A sad state of affairs.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by loborugger

IMHO, they still have the freedom of speech, as there is no govt laws against what they said. What they lack is the feeling of safety in their own country from a bunch of armed young thugs native to another land that have no compunction with wounding/maiming/killing people that disagree with them. How long will it be before this tide of human refuse washes on our shores? Govts seem helpless to stop this crap. Developed countries need cheap labor that is provided by immigrants and its almost impossible to filter out the garbage. If you go vigilant, you are subject to the same laws that the thugs are, and being a native, will probably get caught. Worse, you will be seen as one of them. A sad state of affairs.

what is the point of nominal laws when u r incapable of exercising it? free speech is a practice.

in europe now free speech is unpracticable. and the gov'ts are hardly not to blame, remember the danish gov't apologizing for the danish cartoons? the gov'ts are afraid of offending ppl for so long that now they find one of the most important institutions in western liberalism to be disappearing before their eyes.

[loborugger]

Well, like I said, there is no law against it, so IMHO, it still exists.

It takes more than just legal standing, sometimes. Sometimes it takes guts. Freedom isnt free, and that goes for the freedom of speech.

The govt's of Western Europe are representative. To me that means that when the Danish Govt apologizes for the Muhammed cartoon, they apologized on behalf of their constiutents, the people of Denmark.

If the people of Denmark dont like that, they should elect a new govt.

Standing up for what you believe in sometimes isnt easy. Sometimes you will be mocked and maimed for saying what you believe. Hell, all you have to do is hang around this place for a while. People are regularly mocked for the opinions on everything from religion to the quality of Jake Plummer's play.

The problem with the modern American (and it sounds like the modern European, too) is that speaking your mind is pretty ez these days, and people have no idea what has transpired in the past, how much blood was shed, and how much time passed to allow people like you and me to express opinions like this. Further, if we arent willing to take a stand - and risk life and limb - then some group of thugs will try and take it... be they foreign or domestic. It doesnt take a majority to frighten the majority.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by loborugger

Well, like I said, there is no law against it, so IMHO, it still exists.

It takes more than just legal standing, sometimes. Sometimes it takes guts. Freedom isnt free, and that goes for the freedom of speech.

The govt's of Western Europe are representative. To me that means that when the Danish Govt apologizes for the Muhammed cartoon, they apologized on behalf of their constiutents, the people of Denmark.

If the people of Denmark dont like that, they should elect a new govt.

Standing up for what you believe in sometimes isnt easy. Sometimes you will be mocked and maimed for saying what you believe. Hell, all you have to do is hang around this place for a while. People are regularly mocked for the opinions on everything from religion to the quality of Jake Plummer's play.

The problem with the modern American (and it sounds like the modern European, too) is that speaking your mind is pretty ez these days, and people have no idea what has transpired in the past, how much blood was shed, and how much time passed to allow people like you and me to express opinions like this. Further, if we arent willing to take a stand - and risk life and limb - then some group of thugs will try and take it... be they foreign or domestic. It doesnt take a majority to frighten the majority.

what I'm most upset about is the fact that ppl have taken stands in the past, hard stands. and suffered for them to GIVE us what we have now. and we seem so willing to toss it aside because of fear.

what tenet is more central to western liberalism than free speech? if we can't stand up for free speech then we can't defend our culture at all.

[ClevelandBronco]

Joseph Heller once wrote that his ultimate test of a man who declared his friendship to Heller was to ask the question, "Would you hide me?" That's a deeply meaningful question. It includes the question of whether a person would be willing to accept a death sentence upon himself, and possibly for his family as well, for the simple act of protecting another man from an unjust death sentence.

Heller asked the question as a Jew and in the shadow of what the Nazis had done to the Jewish people.

yavoon, I've categorized some of what you've posted here in the past as crazy. But I attach great value to your right to speak your mind. I don't need to agree with you to have your back when it comes to exercising essential liberties.

Bottom line: If your speech ever caused your safety to be in danger, I'd hide you or anyone else here.

It could conceivably happen here, but probably not in the same way it's happening in Europe.

[fido]

It is rather frightening how extremism can lead to this. I was in europe when the borders collapsed and there was great rejoicing all-around that freedom was restored. Now, it seems as if it is going away to appease extremists. sad, really.

[mhgaffney]

The root issue here is not free speech - it's social unrest.

Some European countries like France have large Muslim minorities -- usually a poor underclass which is not well assimilated into society.

Frictions become worse because of European NATO's support for the current US occupation of Afghanistan -- and the general perception by Muslims that Islam is under attack. Also, the EU has been slow to condemn Israel's brutal and unjust treatment of the Palestinians.

Defenseman recently reminded us on this board that the world is not a fair place. Evidently he thinks this is a given. My response is that yes, this is true and it's why human history is a bloody nightmare. Our challenge is to change this reality. We must learn to live together on a shrinking planet.

If we fail the bloody pattern of history will simply repeat itself again.

We have the power to change our reality for the better. The question is: do we have the will?

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

The root issue here is not free speech - it's social unrest.

Some European countries like France have large Muslim minorities -- usually a poor underclass which is not well assimilated into society.

Frictions become worse because of European NATO's support for the current US occupation of Afghanistan -- and the general perception by Muslims that Islam is under attack. Also, the EU has been slow to condemn Israel's brutal and unjust treatment of the Palestinians.

Defenseman recently reminded us on this board that the world is not a fair place. Evidently he thinks this is a given. My response is that yes, this is true and it's why human history is a bloody nightmare. Our challenge is to change this reality. We must learn to live together on a shrinking planet.

If we fail the bloody pattern of history will simply repeat itself again.

We have the power to change our reality for the better. The question is: do we have the will?

if I was in europe, and the muslims felt that they had the right to trample freedom of speech because of my country's foreign policy. I would deport all of them.

u ask if we have the will, I say only the muslims have willpower. they will stand up for what they believe in, they will burn embassies, sure its not pretty, but it shows willpower and determination. all we have is the concept of self hate and no will. we simply justify a reason to continue to not stand up for the basic tenets of our culture, no matter how badly they are assaulted. there needs to come a time when the west figures out what is worth defending, even against the outcries of self hating ultra liberals.

[mhgaffney]

Originally Posted by yavoon

if I was in europe, and the muslims felt that they had the right to trample freedom of speech because of my country's foreign policy. I would deport all of them.

u ask if we have the will, I say only the muslims have willpower. they will stand up for what they believe in, they will burn embassies, sure its not pretty, but it shows willpower and determination. all we have is the concept of self hate and no will. we simply justify a reason to continue to not stand up for the basic tenets of our culture, no matter how badly they are assaulted. there needs to come a time when the west figures out what is worth defending, even against the outcries of self hating ultra liberals.

You are not hearing me.

For every action there is a reaction. This is the iron law of history. I didn't make it.

I didn't say people in Europe should not stand up for the rule of law and for their right of free speech. Of course they should.

But that will not be enough -- given the state of our world today. I reject the idea we are in a clash of civilizations. That is the great neo con-job. We are, rather, in a crisis of civilization itself. It's a planet wide crisis.

Everywhere tyrants are following Bush's "lead" and using the so called terror threat to crush all opposition, silence critics, and infringe on human liberties. It's a world wide reactionary knee jerk -- and if it prevails it will prevent the very sort of open ness needed now in which to debate and discuss issues and find our way through the difficult days ahead.

I am no liberal. I am a radical, which derives from the word "root." Meaning that problems are never solved by treating symptoms. They are only solved by going to the root causes.

The lunatics and criminals now running America are fomenting violence. Everything they touch they destroy. Instead of blaming other nations, peoples and religions we must set our own house in order. That must be our top priority.

If we set the right example -- people of good will everywhere will respond in kind and join us. If we fail to get control of our own ship of state in America we deserve whatever horrible future awaits us. Bush's path leads to nuclear war and the destruction of the earth. The choice could not be more clear.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by mhgaffney

You are not hearing me.

For every action there is a reaction. This is the iron law of history. I didn't make it.

I didn't say people in Europe should not stand up for the rule of law and for their right of free speech. Of course they should.

But that will not be enough -- given the state of our world today. I reject the idea we are in a clash of civilizations. That is the great neo con-job. We are, rather, in a crisis of civilization itself. It's a planet wide crisis.

Everywhere tyrants are following Bush's "lead" and using the so called terror threat to crush all opposition, silence critics, and infringe on human liberties. It's a world wide reactionary knee jerk -- and if it prevails it will prevent the very sort of open ness needed now in which to debate and discuss issues and find our way through the difficult days ahead.

I am no liberal. I am a radical, which derives from the word "root." Meaning that problems are never solved by treating symptoms. They are only solved by going to the root causes.

The lunatics and criminals now running America are fomenting violence. Everything they touch they destroy. Instead of blaming other nations, peoples and religions we must set our own house in order. That must be our top priority.

If we set the right example -- people of good will everywhere will respond in kind and join us. If we fail to get control of our own ship of state in America we deserve whatever horrible future awaits us. Bush's path leads to nuclear war and the destruction of the earth. The choice could not be more clear.

dont pollute this thread w/ bush bashing, there's 50 other threads for that. I dont want something as important and central to the west as the free exchange of ideas to take a backseat to ur middling political agenda.

[Nordcore]

Hi I'm from France.

And I will try to give our point of view with my bad english.

The text of Redeker is a provocation and it isn't very intelligent BUT of course he has the rights to talk if he stays in the limits of the law.
THe threats are made by some stupids intolerants peoples who want to enter in a world of ignorance. DST(french secret service) is right now on their tracks and try to protect Redeker during the investigation.

But I consider that this is the consequence of a larger situation in the world. Here in Europe we see ( right or not is not my matter here) two "religious" forces who try to dominate the world : Islam and christianity.
In France we are very attached to the separation of church and government and the emergence of religious forces worry us a lot. We are badly at ease when we see Bush who referes himself in every speeches to god and we are frightened when we see extremists muslims who use of terrorism.

I'm pretty sure that the free speech is not in danger in Europe but the crusades of Al qaida and Bush ( cause here in Europe his foreign politic is essentially seen as religious (or linked to oil...) create a real tension here because we are in the middle.

Anyways I think and I pretty sure that it's a consensus that the war in Iraq intensified the tension particularly in the young muslims who live in Europe. They have the feeling that it's an attack on their religion not on The Hussein's regime. And of course the real insanes extremists like Al qaida capitalize on it.
In our suburbs(Paris or Lyon or Marseille) or in london's suburbs there are a lot of extremists Imam who present Iraq's situation or palestine's situation like attacks on Islam. And a lot of young peoples who see Bush talking about god's mission or politic inspired by god are lost and finally they are manipulated by the extremists.

And the europe's governments are unable to find a common position cause Blair is always agree with Bush and Zapatero or Chirac reject the US view of the world...

Once again , if I offended someone it wasn't my will. I'm here like a French Broncos fan who try to explain to you the point of view here in France.

Sorry for my outrageous english...

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Nordcore

Hi I'm from France.

And I will try to give our point of view with my bad english.

The text of Redeker is a provocation and it isn't very intelligent BUT of course he has the rights to talk if he stays in the limits of the law.
THe threats are made by some stupids intolerants peoples who want to enter in a world of ignorance. DST(french secret service) is right now on their tracks and try to protect Redeker during the investigation.

But I consider that this is the consequence of a larger situation in the world. Here in Europe we see ( right or not is not my matter here) two "religious" forces who try to dominate the world : Islam and christianity.
In France we are very attached to the separation of church and government and the emergence of religious forces worry us a lot. We are badly at ease when we see Bush who referes himself in every speeches to god and we are frightened when we see extremists muslims who use of terrorism.

I'm pretty sure that the free speech is not in danger in Europe but the crusades of Al qaida and Bush ( cause here in Europe his foreign politic is essentially seen as religious (or linked to oil...) create a real tension here because we are in the middle.

Anyways I think and I pretty sure that it's a consensus that the war in Iraq intensified the tension particularly in the young muslims who live in Europe. They have the feeling that it's an attack on their religion not on The Hussein's regime. And of course the real insanes extremists like Al qaida capitalize on it.
In our suburbs(Paris or Lyon or Marseille) or in london's suburbs there are a lot of extremists Imam who present Iraq's situation or palestine's situation like attacks on Islam. And a lot of young peoples who see Bush talking about god's mission or politic inspired by god are lost and finally they are manipulated by the extremists.

And the europe's governments are unable to find a common position cause Blair is always agrree and bush and Zapatero or Chirac reject the Us view of the world...

Once again , if I offended someone it wasn't my will. I'm here like a French Broncos fan who try to explain to you the point of view here in France.

Sorry for my outrageous english...

how is free speech NOT in danger? the continent is hemmoraging w/ examples of either self censorship or violent outrage at free speech?

and THE WHOLE POINT OF FREE SPEECH is to protect the speech u dont agree w/. there needn't be a law to protect speech u agree w/, its superfluous. free speech is there to protect speech u hate. to say that its ok to suppress it because u thought it was a bad thing to say is to DIRECTLY ATTACK the VERY CONCEPT of free speech.

sorry for caps, I thought maybe they help. it seems to me u dont mind not protecting speech u dislike. now I know u threw in the "but he has the right to say it." but I dont think u understand what is at stake, and the concept of free speech.

as for christianity, as far as I know christianity is doing nothing to try and dominate anything. perhaps u could show me a christian group that is as large and as violent and as intense as large swaths of islam? I think this is a red herring to try and balance the debate in a relativist format. christianity is not a danger to anything the west values in the world, and the places they do disagree w/, atleast in america they got shot the hell down 90% of the time and are rarely violent about anything.

[yavoon]

and in a larger extent I see the same self hate in ur views that I see in ultra liberals, blaming the west for crimes by islam.

[Nordcore]

I totally understand the notion of free speeches.
And I said that Redeker has the rights to say what he wants if he stays in the law. The law here protects every speeches except homophobic, racist and antisemitic speeches.
So his text is protect by law and the DST protect him and try to find the authors of threats. If you consider that racist or homophobic speeches are legitimate then we are in profond disagree...I can't agree when danemark autorised the existence of a nazi's organization in Danemark under pretext of free speech. Some speeches are so stupid and ugly that you can't defend them.

I'm sorry cause you seemed to take my post like an attack on christianity. It isn't. i didn't say that christians use terrorism or anything like that. I just say that here a part of muslims see the Bush's politic like a direct provocation against their religion. And it creates a lot of tension , and of course the extremists benefit of this.
I think that we cant burry our heads in the sand and said " no, no the muslims are intolerant and agressive and we made nothing for that..."
We have to see on our part too, our governments neglect these countries for too long and we pay the price... Of course i don't legitimate any violence but we have to reject this violence on both part. And yes I think that the declarations of bush on axe of evil or the declarations of the pop are at least awkwards.
(And if this the bush's part who bother you , Chirac or others europe leaders aren't better cause they did nothing too to ameliorate the situations)

[Nordcore]

Originally Posted by yavoon

and in a larger extent I see the same self hate in ur views that I see in ultra liberals, blaming the west for crimes by islam.

so if I understand your views we(i don't speak about you or me personally of course) are for nothing in this and Islam is violent by definition?

I can't believe that...like I can't believe that christianity wasn't the lone cause of the inquisition.

And i'm not a person who feel hate... I'm proud to be what i am and I try to respect anybody , I am wounded by this word. Maybe it's not the same signification in english or in french. Al qaida are pure , insane haters . I am not.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Nordcore

I totally understand the notion of free speeches.
And I said that Redeker has the rights to say what he wants if he stays in the law. The law here protects every speeches except homophobic, racist and antisemitic speeches.
So his text is protect by law and the DST protect him and try to find the authors of threats. If you consider that racist or homophobic speeches are legitimate then we are in profond disagree...I can't agree when danemark autorised the existence of a nazi's organization in Danemark under pretext of free speech. Some speeches are so stupid and ugly that you can't defend them.

I'm sorry cause you seemed to take my post like an attack on christianity. It isn't. i didn't say that christians use terrorism or anything like that. I just say that here a part of muslims see the Bush's politic like a direct provocation against their religion. And it creates a lot of tension , and of course the extremists benefit of this.
I think that we cant burry our heads in the sand and said " no, no the muslims are intolerant and agressive and we made nothing for that..."
We have to see on our part too, our governments neglect these countries for too long and we pay the price... Of course i don't legitimate any violence but we have to reject this violence on both part. And yes I think that the declarations of bush on axe of evil or the declarations of the pop are at least awkwards.

in america all speech is protected, except libel, slander and a few other things. but hate speech is most certainly protected.

as for us "causing" islam to be violent. thats horsecrap. we have wronged many ppl, we bombed the crap outta the serbs, have the serbs turned to suicide bombing? the japanese had the rape of nanking, do the chinese bomb japan to this day?

we took texas from the mexicans, do they have an insurgency there w/ suicide bombing?

it is true that there is propaganda, but u can't stop propaganda. reality does not control propaganda. AND in the end propaganda taps into something real, the violence muslims have towards free speech, and the hatred muslims have for infidels was not conjured up by magic. it is propaganda that taps into real feelings.

as for the pope, he was basically proved 100% correct. I mean that is how islam works isnt it? if u call islam violent, they will kill u. they know this doesn't make sense, they dont care. their objective is the subjugation of thought, the repression of any critic of islam. the factual words or logical arguments have always been irrelevant.

I stil say, if u can not defend freedom of speech. instead turning to things like, "well it is a mean thing to say." then u can not defend the very idea the west was built on. u can not defend its culture and u can not defend its values.

[Nordcore]

in fact the question is " do you think that every speeches are legitimate?"

I don't talk about the redeker's text who is totally right even if i am in disagree with his point of view.
I talk about revisionism, racism, nazism, homophobic declarations.
So if you go on this way , the declaration of Al qaida are legitimate too and the media on europe or in US should broacast the declarations of Ben Laden?

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Nordcore

so if I understand your views we(i don't speak about you or me personally of course) are for nothing in this and Islam is violent by definition?

I can't believe that...like I can't believe that christianity wasn't the lone cause of the inquisition.

And i'm not a person who feel hate... I'm proud to be what i am and I try to respect anybody , I am wounded by this word. Maybe it's not the same signification in english or in french. Al qaida are pure , insane haters . I am not.

very good example. if the inquisition was around today it would need to be fought like islam is fought. and infact christianity has been fought, the enlightenment, the renaissance all fought old christian ideas. christianity can no longer imprison ppl like galileo.

this is what islam needs. to be fought, it is NOT RIGHT that islam represses free speech, or subjugates women. and the continued acquiescence that such ideas are, or that such ideas should be tolerated, do no service to those in islam who actually are liberal and do no service to the ppl who came before us and fought and suffered for the ideas and freedoms we have.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Nordcore

in fact the question is " do you think that every speeches are legitimate?"

I don't talk about the redeker's text who is totally right even if i am in disagree with his point of view.
I talk about revisionism, racism, nazism, homophobic declarations.
So if you go on this way , the declaration of Al qaida are legitimate too and the media on europe or in US should broacast the declarations of Ben Laden?

all those are protected in america. though I believe terorristic threats of bodily harm is not protected. I'm not a civil rights lawyer. but u can be homophobic, or nazi in ur speech in america.

thats the very idea IMO of free speech. if something is truly bad showing it the light of day allows ppl to see its evil.

like i said, protecting speech ppl agree w/ is unnecessary. the speech that needs protecting is speech the majority hates.

[Nordcore]

oh I didn't say that we are responsable of the extremist part of the islam. I just say that I can't believe that all the muslims are haters.
I believe that there are some dangerous and insanes peoples who use Islam like a pretext to spread their hate and rage against occident.
My neighbour who is muslim like his life in France and respect the law of the republic and he doesn't want to dominate the world or kill every woman who don't wear the scarf.

I just ask the question of the creation and the spread of this extremism in Islam. And i think that the occident has a responsability in it even if the first responsibles are the extremists themselves of course.

[yavoon]

Originally Posted by Nordcore

oh I didn't say that we are responsable of the extremist part of the islam. I just say that I can't believe that all the muslims are haters.
I believe that there are some dangerous and insanes peoples who use Islam like a pretext to spread their hate and rage against occident.
My neighbour who is muslim like his life in France and respect the law of the republic and he doesn't want to dominate the world or kill every woman who don't wear the scarf.

I just ask the question of the creation and the spread of this extremism in Islam. And i think that the occident has a responsability in it even if the first responsibles are the extremists themselves of course.

not everyone in germany was as extreme as hitler. infact u could probably say most weren't.

good story from a guy I know who had a fulbright scholarship. he interviewed a VERY nice old lady in germany. she offered him food, and smiled pleasantly and they had a lovely conversation. when he asked her about hitler and the execution of the jews this is what she said:

"oh we didnt know, we had no idea that that was happening. we thought they were being protected from others who would harm them, we thought it was for their own good. .... but u know, its nice to not have so many jews around."

u could probably say that most ppl are nice, or nicer than osama. or dont want to kill u. and while this might be factually true, it does not diminish the actual problem. nor does it negate where the problem originates from.

[Nordcore]

It's an intersting debate for me yavoon and if you feel arrogance in my declarations it's due to my bad english. I really enjoy it.


I understand what you said about free speeches and the duty to protect the speeches that you hate but the speeches has to be right to be protect.

I take an example, if someone says that the gas chambers didn't exist I can understand that you permit him to say that but you have the right(no the duty ) to say in the same time that all(except some fools) the historians are ain disagree with this.

Another example who made big noise here in europe, the revival of creationism in USA with intelligent design. They have to right to talk about this but it can't be accepted like a science theory cause they haven't any proofs of this.

In many european countries I think that the lawyer considered that some speeches are illegal (nazism, racism...) cause he can't control the validity (i didn't find a good word in english , sorry) of all the declarations. It's dangerous i'm agree with you but let spread hate speeches are dangerous too.