OK fess up how many of you secretly hope....

[maven]

Originally Posted by Popps

Again, Champ bailey got beat badly in a couple of those losses. At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?

C'mon Popps. You know damn well the **** we bring on the defensive line is the real culprit. Don't drift from this.

[Taco John]

"Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback"

"The field position battle doesn't matter."

"It's ok for your quarterback to choke if the pressure is too high."

"At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?"

The hits keep comin'!

[24champ]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Yeah, in that lost cause of a game... I wasn't advocating him start the entire season. Jake was playing like such garbage that game that it wouldn't hurt throwing Brad in there to see what he could do. But no way in hell did I want to see him start the entire season.

So no... like the quote says... I was ready to see him in there at "the end of the third quarter", not starting for the rest of the season. And also, like the quote says "I don't know if BVP can play at this level".

But nice try.

Where did I say you wanted BVP to start the whole season? The last sentence you indicated you wanted to see BVP in a start. Plus later on in the thread you mention it again...Just saying it is odd that you say BVP was horrible in pre-season and I suppose you wanted him to start after Miami to somehow get Plummer on the right track.

Originally Posted by Taco John

You must not be too familiar with our head coach.

Let me introduce you to the man who once started a virtual rookie against the Dolphins in week one:

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by 24champbailey

Did you not entertain the thought that BVP should start after the loss to Miami?

[24champ]

Originally Posted by Taco John

You can read Taco right? Ok where is the word SEASON in that post?

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by 24champbailey

The last sentence you indicated you wanted to see BVP in a start.

No I didn't. The last sentence indicated a philosophy that I have when a veteran plays bad for a prolonged period of time, not advocating that BVP start in week two. Again, nice try.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by 24champbailey

You can read Taco right? Ok where is the word SEASON in that post?

You can read right? Where did I advocate that BVP start at all?

I was all for yanking Plummer in the third quarter to send a message and putting BVP in to see what he could do under the circumstances.

This is pretty weak.

[24champ]

I was all for yanking Plummer in the third quarter to send a message and putting BVP in to see what he could do under the circumstances.

what message is that? That we have a ****tier QB than Plummer?

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Second of all, this coddling of Jake and pardoning him for not driving our offense to at least ONE touchdown at home in the first half of football isn't going to stop

No one is pardoning him.

People are trying to explain to you that SITUATIONS dictate what happens.

Elway was the best QB to ever play the game, but was held to 10 pts in two different Superbowls. Now, should is it "pardoning" him to say that his poor performance wasn't the reason we lost the game?

After all, he didn't "step up like a leader" when we needed him to.

IT DOESN'T MATTER that they were different caliber QBs. The scenario is the same. Both performed well during the season, then got buried at some point in the playoffs.

Is it pardoning Elway to say that he wasn't the reason we lost those games?

Is it pardoning Elway to say that the SITUATION was a contributing factor to his poor play?

Pitt's D had a lead, all the momentum, we had abandoned the running game and they KNEW we were in pass-only mode before half. Jake threw a ball up that he shouldn't have.

Now.... do you REALLY define that as choking, Taco? Really? That's choking?

See, to me, choking is when you blow a lead, or throw a crucial pick in a tie game... or miss a short put to win the Masters. But, throwing a half-time INT when your team was in the process of being blown out..... "choking?"

I think you know better, but you need it to suit your agenda, so logic and situational details are never going to enter your posts. It's just going to be one-liners, assumptions and "what ifs."

[Popps]

Originally Posted by SprintRightOption

Wow, I read this entire thread all the way through. I remember your unending defense of Griese here and at the DPO in 2000-02 for much worse football than Plummer, and it really is telling to see how you and some others argue a 180 when it's Plummer.

Like I said, anyone who has been around long enough has to laugh at his new "we need a franchise QB stance."

Great post, otherwise.. by the way. Concise, logic and fact based and covers the debate in great detail. Nicely done.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by 24champbailey

what message is that? That we have a ****tier QB than Plummer?

What's the message a coach is usually trying to send to a quarterback when they bench them halfway through a game where they're struggling?

Why are we even talking about last year's Miami game? Plummer typically has bad opening games, and recovers the next week. Big deal.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by maven

C'mon Popps. You know damn well the **** we bring on the defensive line is the real culprit. Don't drift from this.

Of course, man. I'll never stray from it, because it's factual and can be proven by any number of factual and statistical based means.
Decent against the run, abysmal against the pass.

Champ Bailey literally saved this defense last year. He saved the season. He's a one-man gang out there, some days. I shudder to think of the havoc that guy could cause if he had some ass-kickers up front putting real pressure on QBs.

I love Champ, I just think he deserves better.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Taco John

"Brad Johnson is an elite quarterback"

He worked himself into an elite class with top notch performances for three different organizations and a Superbowl win. You said he and Griese were equals.

Context.

Originally Posted by Taco John

"The field position battle doesn't matter."

First off, never said anything close to that. I did say that it didn't matter where we gave Pittsburgh the ball that day.. be it our 40 or their 20. The result was the same... an easy score.

Originally Posted by Taco John

"At what point do we start calling out Champ for being a playoff choker?"

Absolutely. That's your logic at work. Champ got beaten badly a few times across a few playoff losses. By your logic, he therefore must be the SOURCE of the problem, and should be replaced.

Context sucks, eh Taco?

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Popps

Now.... do you REALLY define that as choking, Taco? Really? That's choking?

See, to me, choking is when you blow a lead, or throw a crucial pick in a tie game... or miss a short put to win the Masters. But, throwing a half-time INT when your team was in the process of being blown out..... "choking?"

When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown and send your team into the locker room on a high note after a rough half, but instead on the first play of the drive you throw an boneheaded interception that basically puts the game out of reach on your own field, yes... that's Choking. That's right. I capitalized it.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Taco John

When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown.

It was 17-3 with Pitt getting the ball after the gun... with the half running out.

Gosh, ya think Pitt might have been looking for us to go for big chunks of yardage? We ran the ball 14 times all day, it's not like they had to worry about that.

They sat back and waited for us to do what the situation FORCED us to do. Our crappy defensive performance led to throw-only mode, instead of keeping the game close (like the week before where we won and scored near halftime) and grinding it out.

[Popps]

Oh well, I've had enough of talking logic to a brick wall. I've got a St. Louis game to worry about.

Hey, maybe Jake will have a poor performance and you can get some threads going calling for the rookie to start?

You can only hope...

[24champ]

Originally Posted by Taco John

When you have the opportunity to pull your team to within a touchdown and send your team into the locker room on a high note after a rough half, but instead on the first play of the drive you throw an boneheaded interception that basically puts the game out of reach on your own field, yes... that's Choking. That's right. I capitalized it.

Taco can you cite any other "chokes" in any other sport where the Person/team choked when they were never leading?

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Popps

It was 17-3 with Pitt getting the ball after the gun... with the half running out.

Yeah. A touchdown puts us in our locker room at 17-10. Within one touchdown. Pittsburgh stalled on their first drive out the gates. In fact, our defense held them until Plummer finished the choke job later on after teasing us with our first touchdown of the game.

They sat back and waited for us to do what the situation FORCED us to do. Our crappy defensive performance led to throw-only mode, instead of keeping the game close (like the week before where we won and scored near halftime) and grinding it out.

So it's OK to choke if the pressure is too high then, and instead of throwing to the open guy, throw a floater to the covered tight end. Got it. I guess I just need to understand context.

[Bronco LB 59]

NO.....You can count the number of rookie QBs who have enjoyed successful seasons on your hand, Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Rick Mirer, Greg Cook. The offense is way too complicated to begin with, the odds would be stacked against Denver if they went this route.

[Dedhed]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

It was the original question posed in this thread.



If you voted yes, you voted that you want to see Plummer get injured and miss a couple of games, regardless of how anyone wants to spin it.

You're the one spinning this out of context. "injured" is very different than getting an owie.