OK fess up how many of you secretly hope....

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer. It would be hard to argue that the coaching staff felt the offense was sufficient given we spent just about every penny of our resources in securing offensive players.

I still think we need some players up front, but I've been upset about the declining talent on offense for some time and feel great about what they did to address that.

It's a cyclical thing, too. We spent the last two off-seasons shoring up the defense. (Theoretically) So, certainly they saw a great opportunity in Cutler, but they also can't ONLY focus on defense every year. They were bound to address some of the offensive holes, too. I don't think either necessarily supports what the staff thinks is the "real" problem THIS year. (Or last year when it was defense.)

It's fairly obvious that they thought we had holes on both sides.

Now, if the staff would only pay the level of seriousness to the d-line that they have the CB, WR and QB position, we'd be in business.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer.

This, I COMPLETELY agree with. But there are those who don't see it as an indictment of Plummer AT ALL. Which is why this is even a discussion at all. I still feel we'd have been better off with one more playmaker out there against Pittsburgh, which is why I was crazy enough to support the idea to bring in TO. Thank the Lord that Javon Walker was able to be taken for a second. What a steal!

[Popps]

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade, in the face of major opposition from most who have since clammed up.

I love the Cutler pick, too. If we can improve at any position, or even set ourselves up for later.. I'm all for it.

My point that parallel to those great offensive moves, should have been some great defensive moves.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Thank the Lord that Javon Walker was able to be taken for a second. What a steal!

We agree on that... that's for sure. What a massive boost that'll be to this offense.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by Popps

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade

No one else was willing to start a thread saying they'd give up the 15th pick for him

[Kaylore]

I think it's obvious that Cutler is Plummers ticket out of town. Part of my frustration was that his production was limited by the players around him. It was plain to me that we were woefully under-talented on the offensive side of the ball. We had no speed and were only getting older. I like all the guys we brought in and I think it will help. Unfortunately I'm out of patience for Plummer. He has no execuses this year so anything short of a real pro-bowl performance will have me in the "dump Plummer" camp, unless he wants to stay and backup Cutler, which we all know he won't.

Next year, I hope we go safety, Defensive end, Defensive tackle and maybe a project left tackle. The rest we can draft projects and filler, and if Jeff Garcia is available, bring him in and backup Cutler.

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.

[usedupbraids]

the only reason we got cutler its because of last years lost vs pitts , everyone put the blam on jake but it was or D that cost us the game not jake.Cutler should start next year jake took us to the AFC chip thats pertty good,im starting to become a cutler groupie tho start cutler next year this is jakes year

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

Next year, I hope we go safety, Defensive end, Defensive tackle and maybe a project left tackle. The rest we can draft projects and filler, and if Jeff Garcia is available, bring him in and backup Cutler.

I'm in the camp of drafting the BPA at either DE, S or RB. Whichever position has the BPA, take that guy.

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Popps

.. and for the record, I was probably the biggest proponent on this forum of the Walker trade, in the face of major opposition from most who have since clammed up.

Ahem.

[Popps]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.

Taco actually said one thing that made sense about this situation... there will be NO chance of fair competition for Plummer next season. Not in the city of Denver, where QB expectations are absolutely off the charts. Your opinion of Plummer aside, teams like Miami and Chicago would kill for the kind of QB production we've had, whether it's partly the system or not.

But, we drafted Jay high... and the pressure from the media and fans is going to be on. If Shanahan goes with Jake over Jay, he'll be facing intense scrutiny.. and think about it, if Jake plays well, but makes one mistake that matters, Shanahan will get ROASTED alive. If Jay plays mediocre and makes a ton of mistakes that lose us games... well, that's just a rookie learning the ropes.

Shanahan would have to feel that Jake is twice as good as Jay, or more... as he'd be staking his reputation on him, and that's just not going to happen.

Plummer hasn't cost us a game since 2004. He's been a PART of bad performances, in particular... he's played poorly after the team has gotten in a hole. But, he can play flawless all this year... win Superbowl MVP, and will still face a massive uphill battle to win the starting gig. Logical or not, that's what we're looking at.

So, fast forward two... three years. Cutler will be the man. I'll have his jersey... the offense will be powerful, as always. But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat?

Look, I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd love it if Jay Cutler could take this team on his back and win it in spite of complete first half defensive collapses in the playoffs. A win is a win. That's just never been how football is played, and I don't expect those rules to change any time soon.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

This last draft was an indictment of our entire offense, not just Plummer. It would be hard to argue that the coaching staff felt the offense was sufficient given we spent just about every penny of our resources in securing offensive players.

I still think we need some players up front, but I've been upset about the declining talent on offense for some time and feel great about what they did to address that.

I agree. The O has to be able to move the chains against the great D's. It's just as important as having a D that can stop the chains from moving. And oh yeah, the return game is pretty nice to have. A team can look pretty bad in the playoffs if they don't have a solid three-phase team.

[BroncoSoja]

Originally Posted by usedupbraids

he only reason we got cutler its because of last years lost vs pitts , everyone put the blam on jake but it was or D that cost us the game not jake.

Thats crazy, Rewatch the NE game and see how ineffective Plummer was agianst NE, they shut down our Run game and dared Plummer to beat them hell even move the ball agianst them.. If it wasnt for our D handing Plummer and the rest of the offense the ball deep in NE territory and our defense playing very well, we would have been beaten badly in that game. Take away the Pitt game and that leaves you with this one, which would be evidence enough we needed to do something at QB.

As far as the Pitt game your nuts, sure our defense played pretty bad in the first half. But we were pretty close untill Plummer tossed that Pick at the end of that half... Also in the 3rd quarter when our defense showed signs of life what did Plummer do? He came out and threw the damn game away on the very next play thats what. Plummer dug his own hole and did as many expected him to do, he transformed into the old Jack that many said he would. He took responsiblity for the lose and well he should.

It still amazes me how some of you think that Plummer is not the main reason we lost that Pitt game. With the exception of G. Foster, noone came close to playing as poorly as Jake did throughout the whole game.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Popps

. . . . But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat. . . . .. .

You'll have to wait and see. Criminy, relax. The roster is set, the coaching staff is set. The team will have a decent year, they'll probably win the Div, that means a playoff berth. Turn it up then if they still don't make your standards.

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Cito Pelon

I agree. The O has to be able to move the chains against the great D's. It's just as important as having a D that can stop the chains from moving. And oh yeah, the return game is pretty nice to have. A team can look pretty bad in the playoffs if they don't have a solid three-phase team.

Then going by recent history, perhaps the overhaul in the areas of need on defense will be the agenda for next offseason. Check it out.

2004: Traded for Sauerbrun, brought back Keith Burns and drafted Darrent Williams (his main contributions were supposed to be as a return man before he played his way into a starting spot at CB).

2005: Drafted Cutler & Scheffler, traded for Javon Walker.

I guess that makes it pretty obvious what the next logical step would be.

[usedupbraids]

Originally Posted by BroncoSoja

Thats crazy, Rewatch the NE game and see how ineffective Plummer was agianst NE, they shut down our Run game and dared Plummer to beat them hell even move the ball agianst them.. If it wasnt for our D handing Plummer and the rest of the offense the ball deep in NE territory and our defense playing very well, we would have been beaten badly in that game. Take away the Pitt game and that leaves you with this one, which would be evidence enough we needed to do something at QB.

As far as the Pitt game your nuts, sure our defense played pretty bad in the first half. But we were pretty close untill Plummer tossed that Pick at the end of that half... Also in the 3rd quarter when our defense showed signs of life what did Plummer do? He came out and threw the damn game away on the very next play thats what. Plummer dug his own hole and did as many expected him to do, he transformed into the old Jack that many said he would. He took responsiblity for the lose and well he should.

It still amazes me how some of you think that Plummer is not the main reason we lost that Pitt game. With the exception of G. Foster, noone came close to playing as poorly as Jake did throughout the whole game.

Good but we still should start jake , cutler doesnt know the playbook well i rather be 13-3 with jake then 9-7 with cutler

[SureShot]

Originally Posted by Kaylore

One way to keep Plummer here is to have the competition "open" next year and win Cutler "wins" the starting job on opening day, Jake sits for the season. That'd be nice.

I was under the impression that Plummer's salary escalates in the final option year. If that is so I say trade him after this year, and use that money to sign dlinemen.

As far as my expectations for plummer, he has no excuses. Last years "no mistake Jake" is not good enough.

6n06

[Kaylore]

Originally Posted by Popps

Taco actually said one thing that made sense about this situation... there will be NO chance of fair competition for Plummer next season. Not in the city of Denver, where QB expectations are absolutely off the charts. Your opinion of Plummer aside, teams like Miami and Chicago would kill for the kind of QB production we've had, whether it's partly the system or not.

But, we drafted Jay high... and the pressure from the media and fans is going to be on. If Shanahan goes with Jake over Jay, he'll be facing intense scrutiny.. and think about it, if Jake plays well, but makes one mistake that matters, Shanahan will get ROASTED alive. If Jay plays mediocre and makes a ton of mistakes that lose us games... well, that's just a rookie learning the ropes.

That's a surprising post from you, Popps. Shanahan plays who he thinks will help him win, media and draft choices be damned. This is a guy that drafted Maruice Clarett. To suggest that the media pushing him will be a factor in his decision to start doesn't Jay with years of past Mastermind behavior.

Cutler will start because he's better and because he will open up our offense. I don't know how anyone can watch both players and not see how much more talented Cutler is than Jake. Cutler is more accurate now than Jake, the ten year vet going on four years in our system with an existing chemistry with the receivers, has been. Remember HE ran a Vanilla offense too and Jay out executed him.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

. . . . . . I guess that makes it pretty obvious what the next logical step would be.

Agreed. The team is gonna have to make the most of what they have this year. The roster is set. If this team and staff is good, they go on a playoff roll. If not, well, you can't win 'em all.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Popps

So, fast forward two... three years. Cutler will be the man. I'll have his jersey... the offense will be powerful, as always. But, will we have a true championship caliber defense? The kind that took Miami apart tonight despite their own offense coming out very flat?

You're right about that... The Pittsburgh offense came out very flat. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between Charlie Batch and Jake Plummer the way he played tonight. Except that Batch threw three touchdowns and zero interceptions. Aside from that... I couldn't tell the difference. 15 for 25 for 209 yards... Those are Jake-esque numbers.

[DivineLegion]

question is who will be our backup next year and who do we trade Plummer for

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Taco John

You're right about that... The Pittsburgh offense came out very flat. In fact, I couldn't tell the difference between Charlie Batch and Jake Plummer the way he played tonight. Except that Batch threw three touchdowns and zero interceptions. Aside from that... I couldn't tell the difference.

Move along, nothing but the same old TJ bull**** to see here.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

Move along, nothing but the same old TJ bull**** to see here.

heh. Seriously. Shanahan could win with Charlie Batch. We'd call him "No Choke Charlie" during his third year with Shanahan.

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Taco John

heh. Seriously. Shanahan could win with Charlie Batch. We'd call him "No Choke Charlie" during his third year with Shanahan.

And if they didn't, you'd mindlessly heap the blame on him just as you do with Plummer.

[Taco John]

Originally Posted by Clockwork Orange

And if they didn't, you'd mindlessly heap the blame on him just as you do with Plummer.

Well, if he threw the game away at 17-3, during a high pressure drive that we needed him to pull the game to 17-10, then yes... yes I would.

Of course, the defense shouldn't have let the Steelers get 17 points in the first place. But that doesn't give Jake permission to throw the game away at home. If we'd have gone in that locker room 17-10, I believe we'd have won that game... Provided, of course, Plummer doesn't throw that second interception down the road.

But what is, is... We didn't win that game, and the lingering pain from it still haunts us. Maybe the fourth time is a charm.

[Clockwork Orange]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Well, if he threw the game away at 17-3, during a high pressure drive that we needed him to pull the game to 17-10, then yes... yes I would.

Of course, the defense shouldn't have let the Steelers get 17 points in the first place. But that doesn't give Jake permission to throw the game away at home. If we'd have gone in that locker room 17-10, I believe we'd have won that game... Provided, of course, Plummer doesn't throw that second interception down the road.

But what is, is... We didn't win that game, and the lingering pain from it still haunts us. Maybe the fourth time is a charm.

The lingering pain seems to haunt you more than most. Yet you've found a creative outlet for it, using it as fuel for your anti-Plummer campaign. Good on you.

Congrats on finally at least acknowledging the fact that the defense deserves their own portion of the blame for that loss. Now if you'll just go back and watch Lepsis & Foster's "performance" in that game, maybe you'll eventually find a way to dish out the criticism deservedly.

Or not. You can always just keep piling it on Plummer, it's certainly easier and requires a lot less thought.