Bad news for lefties: Plame leak revealed - The Orange Mane

enjolras · 08-30-2006, 01:56 PM

Not a political manuever by Bush at all....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

Ninjafied · 08-30-2006, 02:26 PM

For all of Bush’s political problems, of which there are a numerous many, this one doesn’t even show up on the radar.

Plame says her career is ruined (though I'm waiting for the book deal), Joe Wilson’s mostly false version of events has gone to pieces, Novak lost his job and Patrick Fitzgerald looks the fool for extending a criminal investigation for years after the culprit confessed five days into the Department of Justice probe. And at the end of it all, original target Karl Rove walks away clean.
What a waste of time that was.

gunns · 08-30-2006, 02:44 PM

Gee, the number of scapegoats in the Bush admin is impressive.

Fitzgerald looks the fool? He has a long way to go to surpass Starr.

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 02:45 PM

Richard Armitage was the deputy Secretary of State under GEORGE BUSH. He is a Republican. So, why is that "bad news for lefties"?

I think what you meant to say/should have said, is "Bad News for Those Prescient Enough to Oppose the Iraq War From the Start," as Armitage and his boss Colin Powell did. And as Conservative icon Pat Buchanan did. There seems little disagreement now (except among those in neurotic denial) that the Iraq war and occupation was/is a VERY BAD idea.

Besides, just like Rove, Libby, Cheney and the rest, Armitage had no "specific intent," (aka "scienter," (sic)) that he was revealing the identity of a covert agent.

Now, I was fair with you Republicans before: Cheney, Rove and Libby (sliminess aside) did not intentionally reveal a covert agent. I'll be fair now too: Neither did Armitage.

.

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunns

Gee, the number of scapegoats in the Bush admin is impressive.

Fitzgerald looks the fool? He has a long way to go to surpass Starr.

Fitzgerald's efficiency and budgetary restraint make Starr look like a junior high civics student with a no-limit "Platinum Taxpayer's Club" Visa card.

.

Ninjafied · 08-30-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunns

Fitzgerald looks the fool? He has a long way to go to surpass Starr.

Fitzgerald was solid gold up until this point. Seriously, the guy came off better than Elliot Ness and I believe it was for the right reasons. And then he started following Wilson’s dead leads…
I hate it when gold tarnishes.

OK he didn’t waste as much money as Starr but I’m not comparing him to Starr; that was another era. BTW, Starr won.

bendog · 08-30-2006, 03:00 PM

Enjrolas, if you'd even bother to read.....

There were actually TWO leaks, that's what Novak was alluding to. Scooter and Rove and Cheney were leaking to destroy the credibility of Wilson. Novak was saying, 'hey, I wasn't part of that, Armitrage and I were just shooting the crap." And, apparantly that's what happened. Armitrage got in no trouble cause he told his boss, Powell, who told Justice. What's got Libby in trouble is lying about him being the source

Blueflame · 08-30-2006, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninjafied

For all of Bush’s political problems, of which there are a numerous many, this one doesn’t even show up on the radar.

Plame says her career is ruined (though I'm waiting for the book deal), Joe Wilson’s mostly false version of events has gone to pieces, Novak lost his job and Patrick Fitzgerald looks the fool for extending a criminal investigation for years after the culprit confessed five days into the Department of Justice probe. And at the end of it all, original target Karl Rove walks away clean.
What a waste of time that was.

What a waste of time it was?

Unless I've missed the announcement, Fitzgerald is not yet finished with his investigation and to say that Rove or anyone else involved will "walk away clean" is premature at best.

bendog · 08-30-2006, 03:27 PM

Blue, imo it's a waste of time. The issue isn't that Plame was outed. The media is avoiding the real question of why Bushii had to discredit Wilson. Wilson's questions about the veracity of the Niger document that served as the basis for Bushii's "mushroom cloud" reference in the SOTU speech prior to the invasion. That document came to the WH from italy directly after Ledeen (one of the named members at the neocon PNAC site) went to italy. Woodward really doesn't have the stones to go after that story, and in reality, no one in America today wants to know that their govt lied them into a war.

We do that again, and all the kids will get on pot and pills and God knows what else. (-:

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 03:30 PM

Don't argue with him ... Armitage is a REPUBLICAN!

His premise is WRONG! Armitage is not a "lefty," he's just a Republican who was opposed to the Iraq invasion/war/occupation (see post #4, above).

Bush has met the enemy, and the enemy is him.

The idea that anybody "intentionally revealed" a covert agent was discredited months ago.

Rohirrim · 08-30-2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bendog

Blue, imo it's a waste of time. The issue isn't that Plame was outed. The media is avoiding the real question of why Bushii had to discredit Wilson. Wilson's questions about the veracity of the Niger document that served as the basis for Bushii's "mushroom cloud" reference in the SOTU speech prior to the invasion. That document came to the WH from italy directly after Ledeen (one of the named members at the neocon PNAC site) went to italy. Woodward really doesn't have the stones to go after that story, and in reality, no one in America today wants to know that their govt lied them into a war.

We do that again, and all the kids will get on pot and pills and God knows what else. (-:

Yeah, but can we ever again get that good Owlsley acid? I think not.

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 03:34 PM

I might've missed the basic thrust of this thread .... yes, it was an "accidental" outing by Armitage, so the theory that Bush & Co. intentionally outed her to discredit Wilson is wrong. But that theory was already discredited by Fitzgerald.

What I was referring to above is that Colin Powell/Richard Armitage are (fairly) vocal critics of the Iraq invasiion/occupation, and both were pushed outta Bush's State Department. Even though they are "Republicans," they belong to a wing of that party that Bush & Co. neocons dislike and call "them." Bush & Co. would've LOVED to leak/announce Armitage as the leakers to point a finger at those who did NOT support the war ... especially during the heated months last fall when Fitzgerald's investigation had them on pins and needles.

This pretty much exonerates Bush, Rove and Cheney of the whole thing, btw. The sound bite of Bushii saying, "if there's a leak in my administration, I want to know about it," is now a true and accurate statement, in that he did not know, and it did not originate in the WH.

WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO: is that Armitage being the leaker is not "bad news for lefties," because he's not a lefty. Sorry for the confusion. Carry on.

Spider · 08-30-2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enjolras

Not a political manuever by Bush at all....

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

how is this bad news ? then the question is what was Armatige doing with this information ? why 2 leaks ?

Ninjafied · 08-30-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueflame

What a waste of time it was?

Unless I've missed the announcement, Fitzgerald is not yet finished with his investigation and to say that Rove or anyone else involved will "walk away clean" is premature at best.

You're right - I should have said, "What a waste of time it is."
What are you going to do when the culprit has confessed?

I'll go back to my original thought:
For all of Bush’s political problems, of which there are a numerous many, this one doesn’t even show up on the radar.

I know that's just opinion, but I'm going with a strong gut feeling on this one.

bendog · 08-30-2006, 03:42 PM

What's wierd is when a guy like Armitage is 'anti-war.'

http://www.theindyvoice.com/pnac/

I really had thought of him as a pretty right wing arms dealer, but he fell on his sword with Powell after the admin left him hanging in the UN

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by §Pide®

how is this bad news ? then the question is what was Armatige doing with this information ? why 2 leaks ?

Armitage leaked it. Rove, Libby, etc... simply "discussed it," as they said they did. Sorry to say, this exonerates Bush, Cheney, Rove, etc...

Can't win 'em all ...

Ninjafied · 08-30-2006, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bendog

but he fell on his sword with Powell after the admin left him hanging in the UN

That’s the way it works. First it was Teflon Ron, then Latex Willy. Maybe we can come up with something like Stupid Don’t Stick for George.

Spider · 08-30-2006, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Armitage leaked it. Rove, Libby, etc... simply "discussed it," as they said they did. Sorry to say, this exonerates Bush, Cheney, Rove, etc...

Can't win 'em all ...

what was Armatige doing with the info on Plame ?

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by §Pide®

what was Armatige doing with the info on Plame ?

I think he was just "gossiping," if the talking heads shows are correct. Based on what I've heard and read, he meant no harm. I believe him because he (along with his boss Colin Powell) were against the war from Day One.

But let's be clear: The leak DID come from THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION, just not 'the usual suspects' in the WH. It came from State.

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 03:57 PM

Actually, I find it AMAZING that, in the middle of this MAJOR WASHINGTON ****-STORM ... Robert Novak managed to protect his source through thick and thin, while Bush & Co. were taking oin very heavy water and listing badly ... and while Libby was indicted and Rove was nearly fired.

I NEVER thought I'd say this, but: "I have new found respect for Novak."

Wow. Go figure.

bendog · 08-30-2006, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by §Pide®

what was Armatige doing with the info on Plame ?

NPR had a piece on this last night with a guy whose writing a book. Armitrage supposedly only knew that Plame was some womd anaylist with the CIA, and she was married to Wilson. He got that out of some memo. So Safire comes breezing through - and mentions 'who the heck is this Joe Wilson guy?" Armitrage says, "I dunno, his wife works for the cia and he went over to niger."

Meanwhile, independently, and for different reasons, Rove and Libby are leaking Plame to Judith Miller. Recall they'd used her to bolster the case for womd earlier. What Rove did was tell her 'saddam is trying to get womd.' She says, 'can someone verify that?" Rove, "sure, Chalabi." What's unspoken is that Chalbi was Rove's source. So essentially, they're using Chalabi as a source to confirm what Chalbi said.

The question is why are Rove and Libby trying to discredit Wilson on a personal level rather than with facts of what they knew of Saddams womd programs? The answer, they didn't want the facts to come to light, because they knew their intell was fabricated or in the case of Chalabi suspicious, and their intell was contradicted by the CIA and Later, but before the invasion, by Blix who was actually in Iraq.

Spider · 08-30-2006, 04:12 PM

mmmmmm .Sounds like a whipping boy ...... take one for the team .... but either way a Republican outed a CIA agent ....... good job guys

BroncoBuff · 08-30-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bendog

The question is why are Rove and Libby trying to discredit Wilson on a personal level rather than with facts of what they knew of Saddams womd programs? The answer ...........

.......... is as old as politics itself. Alger Hiss, Eugene McCarthy, Edmund Muskie, Thomas Eagleton, Daniel Ellsburg, Ross Perot, Monica Lewinsky, Cindy Sheehan ...

The desire and means to politically "Discredit" don't always center on policy.

.

enjolras · 08-30-2006, 04:20 PM

Here is a really good breakdown of the whole incident:

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=116511

This revelation does make the whole incident seem far less devious than the lefties had been charging. It seems more like a case of opportunism on the administrations part, more than a concerted effort to leak sensitive and classified information.

bendog · 08-30-2006, 04:36 PM

It's all politics, but you still aren't asking why bushii had to discredit wilson personally and not on the facts of womd. I mean it wasn't a secret to saddam that bushii thought he had womd. It's not like we had a spy in Iraq who needed protecting. It's rather obvious bushii didn't know ****e about what was actually happening in iraq

08-30-2006, 01:56 PM	#1
enjolras Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,941	Bad news for lefties: Plame leak revealed Not a political manuever by Bush at all.... http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...age/index.html

08-30-2006, 03:30 PM	#10
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Don't argue with him ... Armitage is a REPUBLICAN! His premise is WRONG! Armitage is not a "lefty," he's just a Republican who was opposed to the Iraq invasion/war/occupation (see post #4, above). Bush has met the enemy, and the enemy is him. The idea that anybody "intentionally revealed" a covert agent was discredited months ago. Last edited by BroncoBuff; 08-30-2006 at 03:32 PM..

08-30-2006, 03:34 PM	#12
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	I might've missed the basic thrust of this thread .... yes, it was an "accidental" outing by Armitage, so the theory that Bush & Co. intentionally outed her to discredit Wilson is wrong. But that theory was already discredited by Fitzgerald. What I was referring to above is that Colin Powell/Richard Armitage are (fairly) vocal critics of the Iraq invasiion/occupation, and both were pushed outta Bush's State Department. Even though they are "Republicans," they belong to a wing of that party that Bush & Co. neocons dislike and call "them." Bush & Co. would've LOVED to leak/announce Armitage as the leakers to point a finger at those who did NOT support the war ... especially during the heated months last fall when Fitzgerald's investigation had them on pins and needles. This pretty much exonerates Bush, Rove and Cheney of the whole thing, btw. The sound bite of Bushii saying, "if there's a leak in my administration, I want to know about it," is now a true and accurate statement, in that he did not know, and it did not originate in the WH. WHAT I WAS REFERRING TO: is that Armitage being the leaker is not "bad news for lefties," because he's not a lefty. Sorry for the confusion. Carry on. Last edited by BroncoBuff; 08-30-2006 at 03:47 PM..

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08-30-2006, 02:26 PM	#2
Ninjafied Seasoned Veteran Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 264	For all of Bush’s political problems, of which there are a numerous many, this one doesn’t even show up on the radar. Plame says her career is ruined (though I'm waiting for the book deal), Joe Wilson’s mostly false version of events has gone to pieces, Novak lost his job and Patrick Fitzgerald looks the fool for extending a criminal investigation for years after the culprit confessed five days into the Department of Justice probe. And at the end of it all, original target Karl Rove walks away clean. What a waste of time that was.

08-30-2006, 02:44 PM	#3
gunns I WANT DEFENSE! Defense, defense, defense Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Always Hoping Posts: 11,658 Adopt-a-Bronco: Defense	Gee, the number of scapegoats in the Bush admin is impressive. Fitzgerald looks the fool? He has a long way to go to surpass Starr.

08-30-2006, 02:45 PM	#4
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Richard Armitage was the deputy Secretary of State under GEORGE BUSH. He is a Republican. So, why is that "bad news for lefties"? I think what you meant to say/should have said, is "Bad News for Those Prescient Enough to Oppose the Iraq War From the Start," as Armitage and his boss Colin Powell did. And as Conservative icon Pat Buchanan did. There seems little disagreement now (except among those in neurotic denial) that the Iraq war and occupation was/is a VERY BAD idea. Besides, just like Rove, Libby, Cheney and the rest, Armitage had no "specific intent," (aka "scienter," (sic)) that he was revealing the identity of a covert agent. Now, I was fair with you Republicans before: Cheney, Rove and Libby (sliminess aside) did not intentionally reveal a covert agent. I'll be fair now too: Neither did Armitage. .

08-30-2006, 03:00 PM	#7
bendog Marginally Continent David Bowens, he'd be an upgrade Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 19,935 Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens	Enjrolas, if you'd even bother to read..... There were actually TWO leaks, that's what Novak was alluding to. Scooter and Rove and Cheney were leaking to destroy the credibility of Wilson. Novak was saying, 'hey, I wasn't part of that, Armitrage and I were just shooting the crap." And, apparantly that's what happened. Armitrage got in no trouble cause he told his boss, Powell, who told Justice. What's got Libby in trouble is lying about him being the source

08-30-2006, 03:27 PM	#9
bendog Marginally Continent David Bowens, he'd be an upgrade Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 19,935 Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens	Blue, imo it's a waste of time. The issue isn't that Plame was outed. The media is avoiding the real question of why Bushii had to discredit Wilson. Wilson's questions about the veracity of the Niger document that served as the basis for Bushii's "mushroom cloud" reference in the SOTU speech prior to the invasion. That document came to the WH from italy directly after Ledeen (one of the named members at the neocon PNAC site) went to italy. Woodward really doesn't have the stones to go after that story, and in reality, no one in America today wants to know that their govt lied them into a war. We do that again, and all the kids will get on pot and pills and God knows what else. (-:

08-30-2006, 03:42 PM	#15
bendog Marginally Continent David Bowens, he'd be an upgrade Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 19,935 Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens	What's wierd is when a guy like Armitage is 'anti-war.' http://www.theindyvoice.com/pnac/ I really had thought of him as a pretty right wing arms dealer, but he fell on his sword with Powell after the admin left him hanging in the UN

08-30-2006, 03:57 PM	#20
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Actually, I find it AMAZING that, in the middle of this MAJOR WASHINGTON ****-STORM ... Robert Novak managed to protect his source through thick and thin, while Bush & Co. were taking oin very heavy water and listing badly ... and while Libby was indicted and Rove was nearly fired. I NEVER thought I'd say this, but: "I have new found respect for Novak." Wow. Go figure.

08-30-2006, 04:12 PM	#22
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	mmmmmm .Sounds like a whipping boy ...... take one for the team .... but either way a Republican outed a CIA agent ....... good job guys

08-30-2006, 04:20 PM	#24
enjolras Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,941	Here is a really good breakdown of the whole incident: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?pid=116511 This revelation does make the whole incident seem far less devious than the lefties had been charging. It seems more like a case of opportunism on the administrations part, more than a concerted effort to leak sensitive and classified information.

08-30-2006, 04:36 PM	#25
bendog Marginally Continent David Bowens, he'd be an upgrade Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Folsom Prison Posts: 19,935 Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens	It's all politics, but you still aren't asking why bushii had to discredit wilson personally and not on the facts of womd. I mean it wasn't a secret to saddam that bushii thought he had womd. It's not like we had a spy in Iraq who needed protecting. It's rather obvious bushii didn't know ****e about what was actually happening in iraq