A Must See: Robert McNamara's THE FOG OF WAR - The Orange Mane

BroncoBuff · 08-27-2006, 01:03 AM

Great movie: "THE FOG OF WAR" with Robert McNamara

I always thought of McNamara as the Vietnam hawk who goaded LBJ into escalation and carpet bombing. But the audio tapes played in this film paint another picture ... that LBJ made those calls, while McNamara actually made Colin Powell "Pottery Barn Rule" warnings. They're right there to hear. Turned me around on that....

Plus, McNamara years later was at a banquet with a very high ex-Viet Cong / current Vietnam leader. He asked the guy, (paraphrase) "I'm wondering why you didn't negotiate on (such and such) date." The guy said, "you never understood us. You were just like the Dutch and French before you. We would have fought to the last man so that we NEVER would live under any nation's rule."

McNamara was so flustered he had to leave to the restroom because he felt sick. The whole Vietnam war was - basically - a miscommunication. McNamara pointed out that the US, of course, had no interest in "ruling," per se ... but apparently the Viet Cong thought we did.

Actually, that film is an enormously excellent historical biography. Maybe the best of its kind I've ever seen. McNamara had intimate dealings with the infamous Gen. Curtis Lemay, with Kennedy and LBJ of course ... but also at Stanford, Wall Street, as president of Ford Motor Co ... and McNamara himself actually INVENTED SEAT BELTS! It's true.

Everybody in the WARRP room should see "THE FOG OF WAR."

ClevelandBronco · 08-27-2006, 01:44 AM

I'll put this as succinctly as I can:

**** Robert McNamara and **** any efforts to scrub him clean. He knew what he was doing. If he was in some way uncomfortable with what he was doing, he should have had the stones to do something about it.

And while I'm at it, **** LBJ's rotten dead corpse.

BroncoBuff · 08-27-2006, 01:53 AM

Come on ... don't beat around the bush, this is the WARRP room!

ClevelandBronco · 08-27-2006, 01:55 AM

It's only a matter of time in this discussion before I'll be accused of beating (off) around the G.W. Bush.

Wait for it.

ClevelandBronco · 08-27-2006, 02:05 AM

I'll admit my bias up front: I think LBJ and the idiot squad surrounding him ushered in the most tragic all-encompassing political/governmental/cultural/social disaster we've ever dealt with as a nation. IMO, that administration marked the beginning of the end for the U.S. in so many ways that it would take me too long to categorize them here. (That is to say, without the potential for profit.

Besides, too many folks beat me to it.)

BroncoBuff · 08-27-2006, 02:41 AM

November 22, 1963 ... the end of times

BroncoBuff · 08-27-2006, 02:46 AM

mosca · 08-27-2006, 03:14 AM

I'll check it out on your recommendation, Buff... I've seen this title at the vid store a few times but just kept passing it up.

ClevelandBronco · 08-27-2006, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

November 22, 1963 ... the end of times

Maybe it's just me, but it sounds like you're reading too much "Armageddon" into what I'm saying. It's only that I personally saw our decline as a nation for the first time during the LBJ years. Some of my other fears were confirmed during the Nixon administration.

I've reconciled myself to the idea that our government no longer represents or cares about our Constitution, but I came to that conclusion on May 4, 1970. Not after the elections of 2000 or 2004.

I have contentious disagreement with some of my fellow countrymen, but I have fundamental disagreement with my government.

I think we lost the idea long ago.

I'm just sticking around to see how much of it survives after the smoke clears.

Spider · 08-27-2006, 04:25 AM

wow , and double wow , me and Cleveland agree ........ but he is right Bro , LBJ was a son of a Bítch so was McNamara .........Bush and Rumsfeld is a part doux ..... where I disagree with Cleveland is this part

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cleveland

I think we lost the idea long ago.

I'm just sticking around to see how much of it survives after the smoke clears.

I Think huge lessons were learned off the 70's ,Iraq is bad , but nowhere near Nam , as far as body count , they are both quagmires , but much different degrees ........
I have alot of faith in my country men , yes even republicans ,we will survive this , and our children will learn from our mistakes ...... Our Goverment is far from perfect , but it is the best on the planet , I believe .........
Buff it is healthy , to look at all sides , I wish more people did like you do ......
My Daddy was a soldier in nam .......... Bad medicine war is ......

L.A. BRONCOS FAN · 08-27-2006, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClevelandBronco

I'll put this as succinctly as I can:

**** Robert McNamara and **** any efforts to scrub him clean. He knew what he was doing. If he was in some way uncomfortable with what he was doing, he should have had the stones to do something about it.

And while I'm at it, **** LBJ's rotten dead corpse.

Mark your calendar: I concur with all of the above.

LBJ and the sociopaths (like McNamara) with whom he surrounded himself were as evil as almost any republican I can think of.

loborugger · 08-27-2006, 08:15 AM

Didnt McNamara come out with a biography in the 90s where he said that he know that Viet Nam was wrong and unwinnable at the time... Screw him. He is like Jane Fonda... I dont give a damn what they have done since Nam after what they did in Nam.

elsid13 · 08-27-2006, 08:22 AM

Great movie it been out for a time, and the book is pretty good to. When I watched it did feel that it was an attempt to improve McNamara historical standing though.

Spider · 08-27-2006, 09:57 AM

Houston we have a problem .........

BroncoBuff · 08-27-2006, 01:08 PM

Just see it ...

I'm telling you, there were Colin Powell-like "Pottery Barn Rule" warnings from McNamara to LBJ... the audiotape is hard to argue with.

Now, McNamara was a ****ing son of a ***** in that he did not resign or argue more with LBJ - I'm just saying he's not as much a bad guy as I've always thought.

And the part about the entire war being a misunderstanding ... spooky stuff.

Spider · 08-27-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

Just see it ...

I'm telling you, there were Colin Powell-like "Pottery Barn Rule" warnings from McNamara to LBJ... the audiotape is hard to argue with.

Now, McNamara was a ****ing son of a ***** in that he did not resign or argue more with LBJ - I'm just saying he's not as much a bad guy as I've always thought.

I guees it depends ....

Quote:

And the part about the entire war being a misunderstanding ... spooky stuff.

War should always be the last resort , but when you go , go with enough force to crush the enemy .. a lesson we never learned

Rohirrim · 08-28-2006, 08:45 AM

This was a great film to watch, for historical reasons. Unfortunately, the people who need to see it (Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rummy/etc.) won't. So we get to sit on the sidelines, watching, while they make the same mistakes all over again. There was actually an opposition party back then, rather than the bunch of mealy mouthed enablers we have now. There were even massive, nation-wide protests - which accomplished nothing. I guess it's a little bit different now. Back then, we were throwing our children into the wood chipper because of the blindness of a philosophy; The Domino Effect. Now, we feed our children, and our Republic, and our history, and our ideals, into the wood chipper for the benefit of oil companies. I guess you could say that's a more "practical" reason, anyway.

The new American reality? Waiting for the Visigoths.

BroncoBuff · 08-28-2006, 10:37 PM

Modern weapons and two blankets of massive oceans make modern-day Visigoths not so scary ... I'm more worried about the yuan being tied to international currencies than an invasion ...

Or is your 'Visigoth' a metaphor for illegal immigration? Pat Buchanan's book was still #1 this weekend ...

mhgaffney · 08-29-2006, 12:25 AM

I'd be interested in Dan Ellsberg's view on this. He was close to the men making the decisions.

For what it's worth McNamara has warned that the danger of nuclear war has greatly increased under Bush. He also thinks a US attack on Iran would be a disaster.

enjolras · 08-29-2006, 02:22 AM

An article from '04, but still very valid I think (just to compare the two conflicts):

http://www.slate.com/id/2111432/

08-27-2006, 02:46 AM	#7
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Last edited by BroncoBuff; 08-27-2006 at 01:07 PM..

08-28-2006, 10:37 PM	#18
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Modern weapons and two blankets of massive oceans make modern-day Visigoths not so scary ... I'm more worried about the yuan being tied to international currencies than an invasion ... Or is your 'Visigoth' a metaphor for illegal immigration? Pat Buchanan's book was still #1 this weekend ... Last edited by BroncoBuff; 08-29-2006 at 05:04 PM..

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08-27-2006, 01:03 AM	#1
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	A Must See: Robert McNamara's THE FOG OF WAR Great movie: "THE FOG OF WAR" with Robert McNamara I always thought of McNamara as the Vietnam hawk who goaded LBJ into escalation and carpet bombing. But the audio tapes played in this film paint another picture ... that LBJ made those calls, while McNamara actually made Colin Powell "Pottery Barn Rule" warnings. They're right there to hear. Turned me around on that.... Plus, McNamara years later was at a banquet with a very high ex-Viet Cong / current Vietnam leader. He asked the guy, (paraphrase) "I'm wondering why you didn't negotiate on (such and such) date." The guy said, "you never understood us. You were just like the Dutch and French before you. We would have fought to the last man so that we NEVER would live under any nation's rule." McNamara was so flustered he had to leave to the restroom because he felt sick. The whole Vietnam war was - basically - a miscommunication. McNamara pointed out that the US, of course, had no interest in "ruling," per se ... but apparently the Viet Cong thought we did. Actually, that film is an enormously excellent historical biography. Maybe the best of its kind I've ever seen. McNamara had intimate dealings with the infamous Gen. Curtis Lemay, with Kennedy and LBJ of course ... but also at Stanford, Wall Street, as president of Ford Motor Co ... and McNamara himself actually INVENTED SEAT BELTS! It's true. Everybody in the WARRP room should see "THE FOG OF WAR."

08-27-2006, 01:44 AM	#2
ClevelandBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Freedonia Posts: 1,643	I'll put this as succinctly as I can: ** Robert McNamara and ** any efforts to scrub him clean. He knew what he was doing. If he was in some way uncomfortable with what he was doing, he should have had the stones to do something about it. And while I'm at it, **** LBJ's rotten dead corpse.

08-27-2006, 01:53 AM	#3
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Come on ... don't beat around the bush, this is the WARRP room!

08-27-2006, 01:55 AM	#4
ClevelandBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Freedonia Posts: 1,643	It's only a matter of time in this discussion before I'll be accused of beating (off) around the G.W. Bush. Wait for it.

08-27-2006, 02:05 AM	#5
ClevelandBronco Ring of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Freedonia Posts: 1,643	I'll admit my bias up front: I think LBJ and the idiot squad surrounding him ushered in the most tragic all-encompassing political/governmental/cultural/social disaster we've ever dealt with as a nation. IMO, that administration marked the beginning of the end for the U.S. in so many ways that it would take me too long to categorize them here. (That is to say, without the potential for profit. Besides, too many folks beat me to it.)

08-27-2006, 02:41 AM	#6
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	November 22, 1963 ... the end of times

08-27-2006, 03:14 AM	#8
mosca grand pubah honest optimism Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,950 Adopt-a-Bronco: Bubby Brister	I'll check it out on your recommendation, Buff... I've seen this title at the vid store a few times but just kept passing it up.

08-27-2006, 08:15 AM	#12
loborugger lost in the ether Did we finally get a FB??? Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The 'cuse Posts: 5,783 Adopt-a-Bronco: Peyton Hillis	Didnt McNamara come out with a biography in the 90s where he said that he know that Viet Nam was wrong and unwinnable at the time... Screw him. He is like Jane Fonda... I dont give a damn what they have done since Nam after what they did in Nam.

08-27-2006, 08:22 AM	#13
elsid13 Lost In Space Bóg, Honor, Ojczyzna Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: DC Posts: 19,080	Great movie it been out for a time, and the book is pretty good to. When I watched it did feel that it was an attempt to improve McNamara historical standing though.

08-27-2006, 09:57 AM	#14
Spider Mr Diplomacy I survived Tebow Mania at the Mane Join Date: May 2001 Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder Posts: 84,438 Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller	Houston we have a problem .........

08-27-2006, 01:08 PM	#15
BroncoBuff *************** Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 25,433 Adopt-a-Bronco: QUANTERUS SMITH	Just see it ... I'm telling you, there were Colin Powell-like "Pottery Barn Rule" warnings from McNamara to LBJ... the audiotape is hard to argue with. Now, McNamara was a **ing son of a *** in that he did not resign or argue more with LBJ - I'm just saying he's not as much a bad guy as I've always thought. And the part about the entire war being a misunderstanding ... spooky stuff.

08-28-2006, 08:45 AM	#17
Rohirrim Partisan Human Cannonball Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Twixt Hell & Highwater Posts: 48,801	This was a great film to watch, for historical reasons. Unfortunately, the people who need to see it (Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rummy/etc.) won't. So we get to sit on the sidelines, watching, while they make the same mistakes all over again. There was actually an opposition party back then, rather than the bunch of mealy mouthed enablers we have now. There were even massive, nation-wide protests - which accomplished nothing. I guess it's a little bit different now. Back then, we were throwing our children into the wood chipper because of the blindness of a philosophy; The Domino Effect. Now, we feed our children, and our Republic, and our history, and our ideals, into the wood chipper for the benefit of oil companies. I guess you could say that's a more "practical" reason, anyway. The new American reality? Waiting for the Visigoths.

08-29-2006, 12:25 AM	#19
mhgaffney Ring of Famer Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 9,764	I'd be interested in Dan Ellsberg's view on this. He was close to the men making the decisions. For what it's worth McNamara has warned that the danger of nuclear war has greatly increased under Bush. He also thinks a US attack on Iran would be a disaster.

08-29-2006, 02:22 AM	#20
enjolras Ring of Famer Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,939	An article from '04, but still very valid I think (just to compare the two conflicts): http://www.slate.com/id/2111432/