I'm Man Enough to Admit It ....

[BroncoBuff]

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

Here we go:

ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."


TWO - Where do you "incorporate" a nation? The Hague? The United Nations? Mr. Kimball the county clerk? Where?


THREE - In the wake of WWII and the Holocaust, forces aligned to "incorporate" the nation of Israel in 1948. Israel proper includes all of this area except: a bulbous chunk of land that extends west from the River Jordan between the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee - and the Gaza Strip, a small piece of southern coastline bordering Egypt. These areas were left UNINCORPORATED. Israel's border ends at Jerusalem, but its exact placement around that city includes ...... all of it? None? Half? Israel DID/DID NOT then include the "V"-shaped eastern part of the Sinai.


FOUR - The natives in the area before 1948 - loosely called "Palestinians" - didn't hate Israel yet, but they didn't like the new state. They thought there already WERE a country - 'Palestine'. But because they never "incorporated," the rest of the world permitted Israel nationhood.


FIVE - Over time, the Israelis prospered and grew, and many of their citizens started to build homes and communities in attractive areas outside the strict borders of Israel - closer to the River Jordan, on it's "West Bank," and down the Mediterranean coastline in "The Gaza Strip."


SIX - General Moshe Dayan's Six-Day War with Egypt drove the Egyptians out of the Sinai, and back south of Gaza. Why was this war fought? (briefly please). Is this when the "V" shaped eastern part of the Sinai was made part of Israel? Or was that always part of Israel?


SEVEN - Over time, the 'Palestinians' came to resent the Settlements in the "puny" area they thought had been left to them after the 1948 birth of Israel. They have refused and still refuse to "incorporate" a nation in what's left of this region, because doing so would "concede" that the Israeli nation is, in fact, their nation. The Palestinians believe much/all of Israel should be part of "Palestine." This is why they won't "incorporate." They're "between a rock and a hard place" you might say.


EIGHT - The Palestinians' anger brewed over time, and began resulting in terrorist attacks in the 70s .... But, if Jerusalem itself is to be shared, and Palestine can have (or COULD HAVE had) the West Bank of the River Jordan, why are they so fixated on the land that is Israel proper? Why didn't they just "incorporate" before the West Bank and Gaza settlements grew so large?


NINE - The "settlements" on the West Bank and in Gaza have grown so large, that Israel now defends them as if they are part of Israel proper. They are now contructing that huge wall ... around settlements in the West Bank - not part of Israel proper ? ?


TEN - Much of the hatred of Israel in the Arab and Muslim worlds (which I read and beleive was not so huge before the settlements - in the 1950s), springs from a kind of empathy for the "Palestinians," who are Muslim and Arab.


ELEVEN - In 1982, Israel grew weary of mortars and rockets being lobbed into Israel from the high ground called The Golan Heights, an area in (S. Lebanon?) (S. Syria?). So they attacked and took over the heights from which the mortars came. The U.S. sent troops to keep the peace, and some 300(?) were killed in a suicide jeep bombing. Israel occupies the Golan Heights now - but like Gaza and the West Bank, they have not yet annexed them.


TWELVE - That huge wall around some West Bank settlements is a prelude to annexation of what's left of the settlements. The huge Israeli leader (name? in a coma now) was "withdrawing" some of the West Bank settlements as a "show" of conciliation ... but many believe they withdrew as a prelude to the formal annexation.


THIRTEEN - Cheney/Feith/Wolfowitz/Perle/Neocons are cheering the Isrealis on - because they might be planning implementation of the "Clean Break" - right after this November's elections - wherein Iran and Syria are attacked (?)

Okay - FACTS ONLY PLEASE!

And be nice.

[bendog]

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/history.html

I think most of your historical questions can be answered at this site. If you go to the home page, there's a wealth of material on the various issues and attempts at settling the issue in the post 1947 time frame.

[SteveTensi13]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

THIRTEEN - Cheney/Feith/Wolfowitz/Perle/Neocons are cheering the Isrealis on - because they might be planning implementation of the "Clean Break" - right after this November's elections - wherein Iran and Syria are attacked (?)


Okay - FACTS ONLY PLEASE!

And be nice.

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

[bendog]

Originally Posted by SteveTensi13

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

GD, do they let you have more than one bullet at a time?

[SteveTensi13]

Originally Posted by bendog

GD, do they let you have more than one bullet at a time?

I have enough ammuniton and weapons to arm a small army!

[BroncoBuff]

The "Clean Break" doctrine is well documented, and I've listed two of its signatories ... Feith and Perle.


Why don't you just answer the facts I want to know?

[bendog]

Actually, you've listed some good questions. Why get embroiled with the villiage idiot on this. The guy's not even a neocon; he's just a .... damn, it beats me. However, I think your 'questions' regarding historical palestine and the events of .... 1500-1947 would benefit from the link.

And, Israel pulled out of Gaza. But hamas kept shooting into Israel, which is what precipted both Olmert's dive in the polls as the voters lost faith in whether pulling back would yield peace, as well as the lebanon invasion.

Additionally, as I recall, polls of the palestinians before Israel launched back into Gaza, favored negotiations and a recognizing of Israel and a peace, but I didn't bookmark what I read and have no link.

[Meck77]

Originally Posted by SteveTensi13

I have enough ammuniton and weapons to arm a small army!

and you wonder why public opinion towards Israel is crashing down.....

[Hotrod]

Originally Posted by SteveTensi13

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

Now your just acting like a child. Seriously grow up and join an adult converstaion or go back to your crayons.

[smalltowngrll]

Keep in mind that another piece of the history here and why this land is so valued by many is because of it's religious connections. It is key to the Christian and Jewish people because it contains the Temple Mount often times referred to as the "Western Wall" or "Wailing Wall" (Where the original Temple was believed to be...The Old Testament provides the meaning and value of the Temple to the Jewish people). It is also a key to the Muslims because the Palestinians began calling it "El-Burak," after the name of Mohammed's horse that was supposedly tethered there on the prophet's legendary night ride to Jerusalem and heaven.

Another key piece of history is the 6-day war that took place in 1967. Encarta Encylopedia can give you more details on that.

I'm by no means a history scholar and I don't have Every detail there is, but I've tried to follow the history on this because it really is an important battle to me! (not to lessen the value of any other battle/war...just one that intriques me because of the extensive history)

[Rohirrim]

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

[bendog]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

Good thing you're not a hunter, cause cheney'd shotgun you in the face.

[errand]

Originally Posted by Rohirrim

Here’s my solution:

1. Give Syria half the Golan Heights. Tell them first, they must accept the right of Israel to exist, and second, they must stop supporting terrorists. In ten years, if the UN Security Council agrees that they have abided by these rules, they get the other half of the Heights.

2. Give the Palestinians the Gaza (administered by Egypt) and half the West Bank (administered by Jordan) until such a time as the Palestinian government can get its act together. The Palestinians must accept the right of Israel to exist and must do everything within their power to squelch terrorism within its ranks including allowing UN forces into their territories if they can’t handle the task. If, after 10 years the UN Security Council agrees that the Palestinians have met these conditions, they get the other half of the West Bank. Israel removes all settlers and puts the squelch on the settler movement.

3. Jerusalem is given the singular designation of a World City (administered by the UN) which opens up the city to unrestricted use by the three major religions whose members consider it a holy site. Disputes are resolved through the UN. Proceeds from tourism, etc. are split equally (after paying UN administrative costs) between the Palestinian state and Israel.

4. The Shebaa farms are returned to Lebanon. A multinational force is placed along the Southern border of Lebanon. All UN members pitch in (money, equipment and expert assistance) to help Lebanon quickly rebuild its infrastructure and create an army that can take over the Southern border. Hizbollah must accept Israel’s right to exist, forswear acts of terrorism and disarm or lose its charter as a political entity in Lebanon and all rights to act in any capacity within the communities or government of Lebanon, in effect becoming an outlawed organization.

5. The Iranian government is given a warning by the combined members of the UN Security Council to cease and desist any and all involvement in Lebanon with the threat of sanctions.

6. Israel returns to the pre-1967 borders. It must forswear any claims on the West Bank, Golan Heights, Southern Lebanon or Gaza. Israel also must enter into talks with a coalition of all nuclear powers to work toward the goal of nuclear disarmament.

OK, just so you know the highlighted words are where these talks you wish to happen so badly generally fall apart.

But, just to humor you and myself....let's say they all agree to this and yet, Hezbollah and the PLO keep attacking Israel? What do suggest Israel do then?

[bronco_diesel]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

I'm MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT that I'm not entirely clear on the history, facts and circumstances surrounding the Israeli-Palestine situation (I suspect I am far from alone). Further, I grow weary of not fully understanding these important facts and circumstances, especially in light of the news of the day.

So, I'm going to state a list of 'facts,' as I understand them. I trust a well-informed member of the OrangeMane community will take the time to patiently interlineate (in BLUE or RED please) corrections, additions, etc., without leaving too great a trail of opinion PLEASE!

Here we go:
[INDENT]ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."

http://www.interall.co.il/israel-faq.html#13
The name Palestine is derived from the biblical name Peleshet designating the coastal plain in which the Philistines (Peleshtim) settled in the course of their 12th century (BC) expansion. The Philistines were an Aegean people who were driven out of Greece and the Aegean islands around 1300 BC.
The first time the area which is today named Israel was given the name Palestine was in 135 AD after the Roman conquest of Judea. This was immediately after the Romans crushed the revolt led by Simon Bar Kochba in 135 AD. The Romans renamed the land Syria-Palesitina in an attempt to cancel the Jewish claim to the land. They proceeded to destroy Jerusalem and rename it Aelia Capitolina. But we can still find as late as the 4th century, the Christian author, Epiphanius referring to "Palestine, that is, Judea." Previous to 123 AD (a turning point in Jewish history), there is about 2000 years of Jewish presence and history in the area today termed Israel. Here is a brief history, leaving out thousands of names and places. Pick up any history book that covers this period and this region:


2000-1225 BC - The period of Abraham
1120-1180 BC - Moses, the exodus from Egypt, the crossing of the
Red Sea
1180-1100 BC - The assault on Jericho
1080-1030 BC - Samson, Samuel, Shaul
1030-1013 BC - David, battle of Gilboa
1013-1006 BC - David proclaimed king at Hebron, David captures
Jerusalem
1006-980 BC - The wars of David (Arameans, Moab, Edom)
980-933 BC - The death of David, Solomon, the 1st Temple
933-875 BC - War between Israel and Judah, Omri founds the 3rd
dynasty of Israel
987-851 BC - The era of Samaria
854-746 BC - Ahab, the Assyrian advance, the end of the Omri
dynasty
746-720 BC - Amos at Bet-el, Shallum, Menachem, Pekahiah - kings
of Israel, Ahaz king of Judea, deportation of
Israelite population to Assyria
720-692 BC - The fall of Samaria, the capture of Ashdod
692-609 BC - Beginning of decline of Assyrian power, the fall of
Ninveh, death of Josiah.
608-586 BC - The end of the kingdom of Judea, the destruction of
Jerusalem, the flight to Egypt by Jews
586-538 BC - Babylonian exile
538-432 BC - The restoration of the 1st Temple, Nehemiah builds
the walls
424-187 BC - Greek rule
187-142 BC - Hellenism, rededication of the Temple, Judah the
Maccabbee
142-37 BC - Simon, Syrian invasion repulsed, Samaritan temple
razed, rise of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Pompey,
Caesar, Herod named by Romans to be king of Jews
37-4 BC - Herod the Great
4BC-67 AD - Jesus, Pontius Pilate, Agrippa confirmed by Claudius,
Josephus in the Galilee
68-135 AD - Titus, destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, the
capture of Masada, Hadrian, the Jewish uprising led
by Bar Kochba, the renaming of Judea to
Syria-Palestina by Rome

Only in 632 AD did the Moslem Arabs invade Syria-Palestina and by 640 AD the area was part of the Moslem empire. This reign lasted 450 years, with first the Omayyads, then the Abbasid dynasty and finally by the Fatimids.

[bronco_diesel]

Originally Posted by BroncoBuff

[INDENT]ONE - Before WWII, the area east of the Mediterranean, north of Egypt, south of Lebanon, and west of Jordan - including the "V"-shaped part of the Sinai - was UNINCORPORATED ... but loosely known as "Palestine."


TWO - Where do you "incorporate" a nation? The Hague? The United Nations? Mr. Kimball the county clerk? Where?


THREE - In the wake of WWII and the Holocaust, forces aligned to "incorporate" the nation of Israel in 1948. Israel proper includes all of this area except: a bulbous chunk of land that extends west from the River Jordan between the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee - and the Gaza Strip, a small piece of southern coastline bordering Egypt. These areas were left UNINCORPORATED. Israel's border ends at Jerusalem, but its exact placement around that city includes ...... all of it? None? Half? Israel DID/DID NOT then include the "V"-shaped eastern part of the Sinai.

http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=...s&uid=29703868
Ezekiel 4:5-6 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So the verse says that each day stands for a year... and we have 390+40... that's 430.

And we know that Daniel was reading Jeremiah 25 about how Isreal was in Babylonian captivity was 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:9-11 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land... And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So 430 years of exile minus the 70 spent in Babylon equals 360 years. Ah... but they were bad doobies and were punished further...

Leviticus 26: 18-21 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

So 360 times 7 is 2,520 Biblical years.
And Bible years have 360 days.... so 2520 times 360 is 907,200 days.
Now... we start counting from the end of the Babylonian captivity, which was Nissan 1, or March 14th. That's the third month on our calendar. So we have to subtract the first three months (90 Biblical days) + the fourteen days of 'March'...

...that would be 907,200 - (90+14)= 907,096 days.
Converting it to our years: 907,096 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.4935
Next, we have to take into account that there's no year '0' between 1BC and 1AD... and we have to subtract the 'BC' years after the Babylonian captivity (which was March 14, 536BC).

So the math is: 2483.4935 - 536 = 1948.4935 ... or 1948.5.

According to these Biblical calculations, Isreal would become a nation again in... the fifth month of 1948... or... MAY 1948.

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by bronco_diesel

http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=...s&uid=29703868
Ezekiel 4:5-6 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So the verse says that each day stands for a year... and we have 390+40... that's 430.

And we know that Daniel was reading Jeremiah 25 about how Isreal was in Babylonian captivity was 70 years.

Jeremiah 25:9-11 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land... And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So 430 years of exile minus the 70 spent in Babylon equals 360 years. Ah... but they were bad doobies and were punished further...

Leviticus 26: 18-21 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.

So 360 times 7 is 2,520 Biblical years.
And Bible years have 360 days.... so 2520 times 360 is 907,200 days.
Now... we start counting from the end of the Babylonian captivity, which was Nissan 1, or March 14th. That's the third month on our calendar. So we have to subtract the first three months (90 Biblical days) + the fourteen days of 'March'...

...that would be 907,200 - (90+14)= 907,096 days.
Converting it to our years: 907,096 divided by 365.25 = 2,483.4935
Next, we have to take into account that there's no year '0' between 1BC and 1AD... and we have to subtract the 'BC' years after the Babylonian captivity (which was March 14, 536BC).

So the math is: 2483.4935 - 536 = 1948.4935 ... or 1948.5.

According to these Biblical calculations, Isreal would become a nation again in... the fifth month of 1948... or... MAY 1948.

Robb?

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by errand

OK, just so you know the highlighted words are where these talks you wish to happen so badly generally fall apart.

But, just to humor you and myself....let's say they all agree to this and yet, Hezbollah and the PLO keep attacking Israel? What do suggest Israel do then?

I believe if Israel agreed to this kind of package, the other states would too. If the rogue terror organizations refused to cooperate, they would eventually be frozen out, just the way the IRA was frozen out once Ireland and Britain began to work toward their agreement. It's the states that give life to the PLO, Hizbollah, and Al Queda. Once those states begin to work toward solving their disagreements, the militant organizations lose steam. They cannot operate independently forever. They can only operate as long as states find them useful to achieving their ends.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.

[bronco_diesel]

history in a nutshell-
http://www.conceptwizard.com/conen/con3.swf

[bronco_diesel]

Originally Posted by TheDave

Robb?

no sir - just been studying.

[TheDave]

Originally Posted by bronco_diesel

no sir - just been studying...

... with Robb

[Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by angryllama

I think that you guys are looking to far into the past to solve what is a modern issue.

We tend to project our American values on the Palestinians, and expect that their motivation to destroy Israel is based in economic factors and past injustices, but the truth of the matter is that they function largely out of pure racism.

From former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat (shoebat.com):

“The Israeli Arab Conflict is not about geography but about Jew hatred; Throughout the Islamic as well as Christendom's history Jews have been persecuted, the persecution of Israel is just the same as the old antisemitism.”

“The Arab refugee problem was caused by Arab aggression and not Israel. Why should Israel be responsible for their fate?”

"No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING."

I found out about Shoebat last night while listening to "coast to coast am". This man has a wealth of knowledge about the raw hatred of Israel that is bred into the Palestinians and perpetuated by crooked leaders like Arafat, who he claims stole well over a billion dollars from Palestinians through UN programs.

The Protestants and Catholics of Ireland engaged in the same kind of hatred for hundreds of years. They have learned that its in their best interests to move beyond it. There are still some of the old guard (Ian Paisley) spewing hatred all over the map, but their constituency shrinks more and more every year. It can be overcome.

A hundred years ago, the KKK ruled many communities in the U.S. and lynchings of blacks were events you brought your children and your picnic to. We have changed. They can too.

[bendog]

shooo bat is apt.

[Pezman]

Originally Posted by SteveTensi13

You're an idiot, stop posting. Fact.

Lets keep the personal attacks away please Tensi. No need for that.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Originally Posted by bendog

shooo bat is apt.

He is a little more qualified to assess the situation than you or I.