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Old 07-10-2006, 10:06 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
I don't think TJ cares about making insulting or crude comments to people outside the forum, but when the comments are made to posters it crosses the line.
Which brings us back to the original problem.

You can make the case that this sort of thing shouldn't happen, but, in reality, it sometimes does happen (given the nature of politics and religion) despite your best intentions.

IMO, it's better that people vent their sh*t here rather than climbing a water tower with a deer rifle or something.
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:11 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
Which brings us back to the original problem.

You can make the case that this sort of thing shouldn't happen, but, in reality, it sometimes does happen (given the nature of politics and religion) despite your best intentions.

IMO, it's better that people vent their sh*t here rather than climbing a water tower with a deer rifle or something.
Agreed...I'm watching Cheers right now...Carla is more abrasive than most of what we do in here......
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:19 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
Which brings us back to the original problem.

You can make the case that this sort of thing shouldn't happen, but, in reality, it sometimes does happen (given the nature of politics and religion) despite your best intentions.

IMO, it's better that people vent their sh*t here rather than climbing a water tower with a deer rifle or something.
When you put it in that context, I kinda see your point.

I don't own a gun, but I'd fight for every American's Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms.

Not that I'd be a lot of help, because...well, I don't own a gun and all.

On second thought, maybe I'll just fight for something like the 19th Amendment and leave you guys who are strapped to figure the rest out yourselves.
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:27 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27
Agreed...I'm watching Cheers right now...Carla is more abrasive than most of what we do in here......
I always felt like Spider vs Patch was like watching Carla vs Clavin
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Old 07-10-2006, 10:31 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Pezman
I always felt like Spider vs Patch was like watching Carla vs Clavin
...Carla makes the show IMO.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:29 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
Post of the year.
Nonsense!

I don't think you get it, TJ ... it's your job to moderate the thing. Dole out warnings/punishments to individuals, like you do everywhere else ... and DEFINE WHAT BEHAVIOR has you threatening to close the room for large parts of the day. Give a link to the posts and/or threads so we can see them. Don't punish the room .... punish the poster (like everywhere else!)

Most of the responses to my e-mail petition (sorry again for the spam aspect) said "oh, TJ's not serious." Well, read the first post in this thread again. He sounds serious.

footsteps is 127% right ... there's worse stuff all over the Board, and all over TV. I agree with the others who feel certain that somebody with influence/friendship with TJ is complaining. I'd like these complaints to see the light of day so they can be responded to. I love this room ... maybe we could put a warning "opt-out" page before you get to the actual room ... like (I've heard) they do on adult sites.

.
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Old 07-11-2006, 02:45 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
The bottom line is that my style of moderating is to give people enough rope to hang themselves.
Sure .... PEOPLE, not an entire room. When you gave Alec 30 days in the picture thread awhile back, you didn't complain to everyone in there, or close the thread ... you dealt with the INDIVIDUAL. Same with Bob, MajikMan, etc, etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
I'm not going to single out people one way or the other.
IMO - this is what's wrong. NOT singling out people is abdicating your role ... and I think you're doing it on purpose because either (1) you've already decided to close it, or (2) you want to leave enough wiggle room to shut it down for the fuzzy reasons you're giving.

Last edited by BroncoBuff; 07-11-2006 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:33 AM   #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pezman
I always felt like Spider vs Patch was like watching Carla vs Clavin
if I had boobies , I would never leave the house
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:40 AM   #234
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Looks like I nailed it on the head:

Me:

"Just looking at the thread there and based on what TJ has said about the board moderating itself. First, it was obvious multiple people were making insulting comments and it came to it's climax with Spider and sactown. Second, instead of telling them to shut up and act civil we had LABF, gunns, and possibly clevelandbronco jump in and make things worse. Instead of insulting the other party in a vulgar discussion tell them both to shut it and if they don't report them. It's pretty simple IMO what TJ is asking for us to do and I just provided an example. Adhere to it and the forum will not be threatened."

TJ, "It's as if you're reading my mind. Or even better, my posts."

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...t=43814&page=2

The thread in discussion is the hunger strike thread.
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:55 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
Looks like I nailed it on the head:

Me:

"Just looking at the thread there and based on what TJ has said about the board moderating itself. First, it was obvious multiple people were making insulting comments and it came to it's climax with Spider and sactown. Second, instead of telling them to shut up and act civil we had LABF, gunns, and possibly clevelandbronco jump in and make things worse. Instead of insulting the other party in a vulgar discussion tell them both to shut it and if they don't report them. It's pretty simple IMO what TJ is asking for us to do and I just provided an example. Adhere to it and the forum will not be threatened."

TJ, "It's as if you're reading my mind. Or even better, my posts."

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...t=43814&page=2

The thread in discussion is the hunger strike thread.
This post confirms my point that different people have different perceptions about what is or isn't "vulgar" or "decent" or whatever.

I remember the thread in question, and it didn't strike me as all that different from any number of other threads, past and present, on this forum.

I certainly didn't feel that any of the parties in question needed some sort of outside intervention to help them resovle their conflicts or differences.

JMO.

BTW, your post makes it sound all the more likely that sactown was the snitch in this instance.
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Old 07-11-2006, 06:58 AM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
Looks like I nailed it on the head:

Me:

"Just looking at the thread there and based on what TJ has said about the board moderating itself. First, it was obvious multiple people were making insulting comments and it came to it's climax with Spider and sactown. Second, instead of telling them to shut up and act civil we had LABF, gunns, and possibly clevelandbronco jump in and make things worse. Instead of insulting the other party in a vulgar discussion tell them both to shut it and if they don't report them. It's pretty simple IMO what TJ is asking for us to do and I just provided an example. Adhere to it and the forum will not be threatened."

TJ, "It's as if you're reading my mind. Or even better, my posts."

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...t=43814&page=2

The thread in discussion is the hunger strike thread.

Hmmm....that's funny: When I clicked on your link, I got this message:

Quote:
L.A. BRONCOS FAN, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
Are you privy to some inside info the rest of us aren't, or what?
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:01 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
Hmmm....that's funny: When I clicked on your link, I got this message:



Are you privy to some inside info the rest of us aren't, or what?
Weird. Not that I know of.

Try this link: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=43714 for what caused the entire thing and this as well where Meck brings it up: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=43814
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:04 AM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
This post confirms my point that different people have different perceptions about what is or isn't "vulgar" or "decent" or whatever.

I remember the thread in question, and it didn't strike me as all that different from any number of other threads, past and present, on this forum.

I certainly didn't feel that any of the parties in question needed some sort of outside intervention to help them resovle their conflicts or differences.

JMO.

BTW, your post makes it sound all the more likely that sactown was the snitch in this instance.
I think TJ has just had enough and used that thread as a jumping off point. Actually it was Meck who used that thread in the War Forum thread.

Jumping in and insulting the guy wasn't the action to take.

IMO it doesn't matter who snitched, but I think the War Forum thread is where TJ noticed it and said that's enough.

PM TJ and ask him to give some better definition on vulgar and decent. I'm sure he will answer.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:09 AM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
Weird. Not that I know of.

Try this link: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=43714 for what caused the entire thing and this as well where Meck brings it up: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=43814
It's the second link that gives me the weird message.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:10 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBuff
footsteps is 127% right ... there's worse stuff all over the Board, and all over TV. I agree with the others who feel certain that somebody with influence/friendship with TJ is complaining. I'd like these complaints to see the light of day so they can be responded to. I love this room ... maybe we could put a warning "opt-out" page before you get to the actual room ... like (I've heard) they do on adult sites.
TJ's position on the WRP forum has changed...or at least his method of handling problems related to it...check out this thread. I suggest reading the entire thread, and don't get caught up in the issue of religion being attacked. The main point is that he didn't see the need to police this section of the board.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthr...highlight=fool

Quote:
We got this figured out... But just for the sake of discussion, I want to ask this question to those arguing for special protection from religious discrimination...

Should I also make the same provisions for politics? For isntance, if someone were to berate a poster for their take based on their political affliation... ie. "Whatever you say. You're a stupid liberal anyway, why should I care what you think about our quarterback situation?"

See this is the murky water that we dredge in here when people demand that their choices of affliation be protected. Now, I would just as soon that people didn't attack other people for their various beliefs, but I would also just as soon that the local college cheerleaders come in and give me body massages after work each night. Some people see me as weak for not specifically stating that I'm going to protect religion... I don't. I think that's a trap that I don't want to get myself or my mods involved with. Which is why I said that we evaluate all personal attacks that are reported, and decide from there based on the tone, the context, and a little common sense.

Once we make the across the board decision to protect choices of affiliation, we open a can of worms for ourselves to dine on.

Post #110 by Taco John
Two things: 1) The post makes it clear that personal attacks WILL be tolerated for certain things (but not for others), choice being the apparent determinenet in favor; and 2) decisions to take corrective action are limited to an individual rather than board-wide approach. The question "should I also make the same provisions for politics...?"...indicates a recognition that this board (specifically, the WRP forum) should enjoy great freedom from oversight do to the context of the discussions...vs, let say...racial ephitets for example, which use personal attacks for things that are not based on choice. Again...the point is that he apparently saw no need for oversight or corrective action on a forum-wide basis purely due to personal attacks based on one's political or religous views, which is what 98% of all the personal attacks on the WRP board is based on...that and sexual orientation, which one (could) argue is also a choice...or not...depending on your view. He make similiar arguments here in the same thread on post #23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John
As far as I'm concerned, religion is a choice. Once I have to start moderating for one set of chosen beliefs over another set of chosen beliefs, I might as well spraypaint my hair gray and get it over with.

I wish that the athiests wouldn't taunt the religious folks, but where is the line drawn? Political cartoons? An evolution taunt? A polygamist poke?

I think that if people cant handle the criticism of their chosen beliefs, they probably need to ask themselves why they're so insecure with those beliefs in the first place. I find that "Forgive them Father, they know not what they do" gets me a lot further than demanding respect for what I have chosen for my belief system .
TJ himself recognizes the ambiguity and problems censorship provoke..."where is the line drawn" he asks. Again...avoid the temptation to get caught up in the "why" criticism or personal attacks are allowed...the fact is...at least in his thinking 4 months ago...they WERE allowed. Reading through the entire thread, you'll find that the issue of attacks based on choices or opinions are seen as justified or at least tolerated and don't need to be dealt with beyond an individual case-by-case basis using "common sense". That seems at odds with the over-arching theme now expressed that the entire board is in jeopardy unless adherance to a set of quite vague principles is adhered to.

I think it's apparent that something...ie...some specific incident or complaint has fueld a fire leading towards a different set of policy making rules to govern this forum now than were in place 4 months ago. This is all fine...but as LABF pointed out...we should know very clearly what those rules are...the specifics...not just vague admonitions to "clean up this place and police yourselves".

Last edited by footstepsfrom#27; 07-11-2006 at 07:15 AM..
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:15 AM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN
It's the second link that gives me the weird message.
Still?

Do you have Meck on ignore or something as he is the thread starter.

OR

you are not a member of the group "Orange mane Horseman: Volunteers of the Orange Mane"

Check out your group memberships in your control panel.

Last edited by Rascal; 07-11-2006 at 07:19 AM..
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:20 AM   #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascal
Still?

Do you have Meck on ignore or something as he is the thread starter.
Nope I cant see it either. Says I dont have permission.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:25 AM   #243
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check the last part of my post #241.
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Old 07-11-2006, 07:56 AM   #244
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Its really like crack the WRP just like the Mane itself. Well its time for Hotrod to step away. Got tons of **** to do the next couple of weeks anyway. I'll be back top side sometime around during training camp but Im not sure Im coming back down here or not.

If I dont I would just like to say even to those whos ideas differed greatly from mine thank you. The one good thing I got out of this forum was the chance to hear what other people think about issues. I even changed my stance on some issues due to hearing other perspectives. Somethings I did not change.

Taco this place can get ugly and I fully understand your not wanting to get into pissing matchs or feel like a babysitter but alot of good things do come from this forum.

Either way Hotrods signing off the Mane for awhile to deal with personal issues and basically just get some **** done that needs my attention.

See you all when I get back.

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Old 07-11-2006, 09:27 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footstepsfrom#27
TJ...there are two things that bug me about this; first, I just glanced at the main board a while back and noticed the thread about "sucking off the Cowbooys" is still up there. I don't get it...this is not vulgar? A reference to oral sex is sitting plain as day on the TITLE of a thread on the main site and instead you're focusing just on what goes on in here? What's up with that? I see tons of stuff, including a lot of these avitars of nearly nude porn stars...that are IMO... innappropriate...possible "vulgar", to use your word, especially given their context in plain view for what is supposed to be a sports forum, but yet the politics/religion thread is the one that's out of control? I'm not understanding that and wish you would explain it.
As long as you dont say Taco is sucking off anyone, you're good.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:06 AM   #246
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"Politics is, as it were, the gizzard of society, full of grit and gravel, and the two political parties are its two opposite halves,—sometimes split into quarters, it may be, which grind on each other. Not only individuals, but States, have thus a confirmed dyspepsia, which expresses itself, you can imagine by what sort of eloquence." ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:14 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Taco John
But to comment on your question, the complaints that I get, almost always the root of the issue is with unecessary vulgarity.

I don't pay much attention to this forum but not due to vulgarity. Rather the pointless labeling and stating of what "other" people think. Speaking for someone other than yourself in a political or religious debate has no value.

But, anyway, the real point. Who the heck goes crying to TJ? For the life of me I can't understand that behavior. Aren't there adults in here? Do boys insist on having to tattletell? -- I don't think we'll call that girl behavior because I'd be willing to bet the overwhelming complaint gender is male.

Jeez, folks. Stop making TJ the Daddy. Someone strings together a bunch of words in an internet forum and someone else merely reading those words is wounded, exactly, how? As far as I know you can't catch death or disease from reading a post.

I'd say this forum should be shut down. Not from disparaging viewpoints, personal attacks or vulgarities. But because people actually whine about something they are participating in by choice.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:21 AM   #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tredici
I don't pay much attention to this forum but not due to vulgarity. Rather the pointless labeling and stating of what "other" people think. Speaking for someone other than yourself in a political or religious debate has no value.

But, anyway, the real point. Who the heck goes crying to TJ? For the life of me I can't understand that behavior. Aren't there adults in here? Do boys insist on having to tattletell? -- I don't think we'll call that girl behavior because I'd be willing to bet the overwhelming complaint gender is male.

Jeez, folks. Stop making TJ the Daddy. Someone strings together a bunch of words in an internet forum and someone else merely reading those words is wounded, exactly, how? As far as I know you can't catch death or disease from reading a post.

I'd say this forum should be shut down. Not from disparaging viewpoints, personal attacks or vulgarities. But because people actually whine about something they are participating in by choice.
What do you mean it is a male behavior? That really ticks me off. I can tell you are a manhater! Just reading your post makes me feel ill. I am going to talk to TJ about getting you banned!
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:27 AM   #249
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Old 07-11-2006, 11:06 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoBuff
Nonsense!

I don't think you get it, TJ ... it's your job to moderate the thing.

No. I don't think you get it. This forum is more of a headache than it's worth and I couldn't care less at this point if it were here or not. If you folks don't collectively come together to clean it up, get the vulgarity gone, get together to keep the discussions from devolving away from the topics and turning into a forum on who can sling the dirtiest mud, then I'm dumping it. If escalations here continue to go from bad to worse without someone stepping in and getting discussion back on track, then it's not a discussion forum, it's a personal attack forum, and I don't want the headaches involved, or more importantly, I don't want it reflecting on the forum as a whole.

There's no ONE person you guys can blame this on, try as you might. It's a conglomeration of things that build up and build up and build up and finally the damn has sprung a leak. You guys can examine this from any angle you choose to and discuss double standards and fairness until the cows come home, but it's not going to change the fact that this board has approached the territory "more trouble than it's worth."

Whine and cry and kick and scream all you want. God forbid you take any personal responsibility for it though. This forum doesn't need a moderator. It needs 50 of them, all moderating themselves, and reeling in their friends and even rivals when they're getting out of line. It doesn't need hard and fast rules. It needs people who show a little respect for the rest of the community here by not posting homo-erotic pictures of Bin Ladin mounting George Bush from behind (and the like).

But while this forum has become more trouble than it's worth, when it comes right down to it, I don't really want to pull the plug on it. I will if I have to. Happily. But I'm giving this community the final say on that, and it will come down to the message it sends me through their actions while posting on this board. Resistance is futile. You're only burning my fuse, and accomplishing nothing in the process. I'm not looking for people to resist here. I'm looking for people saying "I'll do my part."

Buff... I said Rascal had the post of the year. You said "Nonsense." My advice to you is to beg Footsteps do one of his little in depth analyses on what Rascal posted. You might not like the way I'm doing my job here... But it's getting done, and one way or the other the problem WILL get solved. I suggest you endeavor to be a part of the solution.

Last edited by Taco John; 07-11-2006 at 11:13 AM..
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