Quarterbacks and 4th quarter comebacks

[BroncoInferno]

Originally Posted by -Slap-

I think Shanny is the type who got tired of seeing first rate QBs like Manning and Roethleisberger step up and perform lights out against his team in the playoffs.

Sure, and he finally had an extremely rare opportunity to get one. I just don't think he was "desperate" like Taco claims. I don't think he would have taken an Alex Smith type of prospect just out of desperation to get rid of Plummer.

[Northman]

Originally Posted by Taco John

Actually, Plummer put himself and the defense in those holes by turning the ball over in every single one of those games.

I'll repeat it again, because I think it's an important point. The Steelers scored only 13 points on drives that started in their own territory. On the other hand, the Steelers scored 21 points off of turnovers where they started the drives with the ball in their own territory.

Thats too much for him to comprehend man. The irony about it all is that the week before the Patriots totally outplayed our offense. Their downfall was them turning the ball over 4 TIMES. Funny how that works out huh? Brady made some bad decisions and it cost his team. Jake made some bad decisions and it cost his team. Pretty simple if you ask me.

[No1BroncoFan]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Thats too much for him to comprehend man. The irony about it all is that the week before the Patriots totally outplayed our offense. Their downfall was them turning the ball over 4 TIMES. Funny how that works out huh? Brady made some bad decisions and it cost his team. Jake made some bad decisions and it cost his team. Pretty simple if you ask me.

You're right, Brady and Plummer both made bad decisions that hurt their team. What everyone here discounts, or just plain ignores, is the play of the opposing defenses. Pitsburgh's defense was eating us alive and Jake caved under the pressure. Our defense did much the same to Brady. Now, If Jake were constantly throwing picks and fumbling the ball without that type of pressure I'd be right there with all the others callig for his head. I just can't discount the play of the opposing defense and the bearing it has on Jake's (and the rest of the offense) performance. If that makes me an excuse maker so be it. I call it seeing a broader view.

Ben

[Taco John]

I call it making excuses. If you want to pardon Jake for fumbling the ball under pressure, fine. I'll let you. But I'm not going to pardon a single of his interceptions. Both were bone-headed throws straight to the defender. It's not like the defender had to make a play to come up with those interceptions. All they had to do is sit on the route and wait for Plummer to read them and release.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I call it making excuses. If you want to pardon Jake for fumbling the ball under pressure, fine. I'll let you. But I'm not going to pardon a single of his interceptions. Both were bone-headed throws straight to the defender. It's not like the defender had to make a play to come up with those interceptions. All they had to do is sit on the route and wait for Plummer to read them and release.

Their defenders made the catch...our's didn't. But they were undoubtedly bone-headed throws. I can forgive the fumbles because of the continuous pressure he was under and he was trying to do something. Lepsis was owned that game.

[Northman]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I call it making excuses. If you want to pardon Jake for fumbling the ball under pressure, fine. I'll let you. But I'm not going to pardon a single of his interceptions. Both were bone-headed throws straight to the defender. It's not like the defender had to make a play to come up with those interceptions. All they had to do is sit on the route and wait for Plummer to read them and release.

And thats really what im getting at. Fumbles caused by the opposing defense is one thing but with the Patriots i believe Brady had 2 picks? and the other two were fumbles by various players. But with us it was Jake who had all of the turnovers. You just cant have that when your still in the game. The defense didnt make any plays either but the defense shouldnt have to bail out the offense every game in the postseason. Sooner or later the offense has to generate points and they failed to do it. And unfortuantely, the leader of the offense is Jake so it falls on him to make the motor run.

[No1BroncoFan]

Originally Posted by Taco John

I call it making excuses. If you want to pardon Jake for fumbling the ball under pressure, fine. I'll let you. But I'm not going to pardon a single of his interceptions. Both were bone-headed throws straight to the defender. It's not like the defender had to make a play to come up with those interceptions. All they had to do is sit on the route and wait for Plummer to read them and release.

And I call what you do pinning the blame on Jake. No, Jake was not faultless. No, he shouldn't have thrown the picks or fumbled the ball. But, the defense should have stepped up and the offensive line should have kept the defense off of him. I keep hearing that it's a multi-phase game, but it's all Jakes fault. Which is it TJ?

Ben

[fontaine]

Interesting debate.

I've always maintained that the true mark of a QB is what he does under pressure, when playing against a tough defense.

Most NFL caliber QBs will post great stats and get wins when the running game is clipping along, the defense does it's job and the WRs get open.

That almost never happens in the playoffs though unless you truely have an elite defense and dominant running game.

Like it or not, Jake has had 4 opportunities in Denver come playoff time to show what he's made of when the team looks upon him to perform in the greatest arena of football: Playoffs, and he's disapointed each time.

Now as a coach you gotta ask yourself what kind of QB you got. Plummer is no doubt good enough to get you 10 wins a season with a good running game and solid defense but how many times are you willing to stick with a guy who choked in the playoffs?

Plummer has proved himself in the regular season.

What has Plummer proved in the postseason?

That's why Shanahan drafted Cutler. Not because Plummer sucks, can't throw the deep ball or whatever. He did it because so far Plummer has proved that he can only take us so far because only that SuperBowl trophy counts. Number two is not a winner, 3 and 4 nobody remembers.

[Lidderer]

So Pro Football Prospectus hits the bookshelves in a couple of weeks, and would you believe what one of the chapters deals with?


# Does it make sense to slow down your offense against the Colts?


Thanks to the many threads dedicated to this very subject, I do not have to waste my time attempting to find out the answer. It's no, by the way.

[Northman]

Depends really, you can either score fast like the bengals did and try to out score the Colts ( in which they failed ) or you can methodically move your team down the field while chewing up clock and score. Thus, keeping the Colts offense out of sync which the Steelers did. Sure, the defense for the steelers did a great job of pressuring Manning all day but the mere fact that Indy had to try and keep up on the scoreboard took away their ability to get into sync and forced them into another gameplan.

[bronco militia]

Down and out?

The Broncos are 2-14 in games in which they have trailed when entering the fourth quarter the past three seasons, with all but three of those games featuring Jake Plummer at quarterback. Ties entering fourth not included.

Date Opponent Deficit in 4th Result

Sep. 10, 2006 St. Louis 15-7 18-10 loss

Jan. 22, 2006 *Pittsburgh 24-10 34-17 loss

Sep. 18, 2005 San Diego 14-10 20-17 win

Sep. 11, 2005 Miami 13-3 34-10 loss

Jan. 9, 2005 *Indianapolis 35-17 49-24 loss

Dec. 19, 2004 Kansas City 35-10 45-17 loss

Dec. 5, 2004 San Diego 20-7 20-17 loss

Nov. 28, 2004 Oakland 13-10 25-24 loss

Oct. 31, 2004 Atlanta 27-14 41-28 loss

Oct. 25, 2004 Cincinnati 20-10 23-10 loss

Oct. 10, 2004 Carolina 17-13 20-17 win

Sept. 19, 2004 Jacksonville 7-6 7-6 loss

Jan. 4, 2004 *Indianapolis 41-3 41-10 loss

Dec. 28, 2003 **Green Bay 17-3 31-3 loss

Oct. 26, 2003 **Baltimore 9-6 26-6 loss

Oct. 19, 2003 **Minnesota 28-10 28-20 loss* Postseason; ** Plummer Did Not Play

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm...986392,00.html

[Rock Chalk]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Funny, Elway never had a problem with that. You guys crack me up, your all so quick to give props to Jake's accomplishments but never want to face the music when he doesnt perform. Who gives a **** what he did in Az? I want to see that kind of play now. Yea, he does great when the pressure isnt on but when its time to really step up he disappears.

Taco says we cant compare Jake to Elway. Its a nono.

Besides, since when is Jake even in the same comeback league as Elway? Since when is ANYONE?

[sonsofkraftybob]

Originally Posted by Alec

Taco says we cant compare Jake to Elway. Its a nono.

Besides, since when is Jake even in the same comeback league as Elway? Since when is ANYONE?

Tom Brady is. Give him another 10 years to match Elway's duration and the Ring Bearer will surpass him.


(from the link the initial poster posted)
Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit.

[bronco militia]

Originally Posted by sonsofkraftybob

Tom Brady is. Give him another 10 years to match Elway's duration and the Ring Bearer will surpass him.


(from the link the initial poster posted)
Tom Brady is next on the list and, remember, these numbers do include the postseason. Brady is one of only a handful of quarterbacks with a winning record in more than three games with a fourth-quarter deficit.

I doubt Tom Brady will ever have as many opportunities as Elway ......unless of course your coach suddenly retires.

[sonsofkraftybob]

Originally Posted by bronco militia

I doubt Tom Brady will ever have as many opportunities as Elway ......unless of course your coach suddenly retires.

No. Brady probably will get credit for them...but it will be the running backs doing all the work...considering we dislike wide receivers 'round this here neck of the woods.

In the quaint fishing village known as New England, we frown on fast dark complexioned youngsters who have a knack for catching footballs.

[Hulamau]

Originally Posted by Taco John

So... Any idea what those numbers look like in the last three years?

In Arizona Jake most often engineered the very need to come from behind in the first place, but his wild gunslinder style with a crappy Offense and little discipline by the coaches no doubt offered the chance to pad his 'come back stats' in Arizona giving a some what misleading indication of his true talent for doing so in a more disciplined scheme, since he had so many chances to actually try and come from behind to begin with!

And Jake can come from behind now too if we are just down a score and the defense is a little soft. But so far, anything over 11 points by end of the second quarter, or later, has been insurmountable the three years he's been here, and even that is stretching it.

Actually, the only 11 point deficit Jake's over come here was last year's 2nd game of the season against San Diego (who, by the way, either looked DAMN good last night or the Raiders are the worst team in NFL history!) and that comeback was almost soley enginneered by the defense with Champs INT/TD at the beginning of the third qrt. and the smothering "Let Loose The Hounds Of War" all out blitz that Coyer took the lid off of at half time.

Jake did some good things in the second half of that game too, once he was safely back in "game manager" role after Champs INT return, but the defense carried the day.

But when we get down 10 points naturally JAke starts pressing trying to come up big for the team and I cant fault him for the effort, its just the he's fundamentally incapable of throwing the ball consistently enough to keep a comeback on track a whole second half.

Jake can get a TD or two under duress with his style of play, and inspite of his accuracy limitations, but the other team is out there playing too and will almost certainly asnwer at least one of Jake's scores. Its a tough deal for any QB, but when you are in that situation you've GOT to have a guy that can make all the throws with real accuracy and reasonable consistency AND who is as cool as a cucumber back in the pocket to have a realistic shot. That's what we've lacked since 98' ... until now :-)!

[yavoon]

all will come over to the darkside of outsiders