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05-13-2006, 01:30 AM
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#1 |
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Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location
Posts: 52,697
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More NSA Unlawful Activity to be Exposed: ‘People will Be Shocked’
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/12/...wful-activity/
May 12, 2006 CongressDaily reports that former NSA staffer Russell Tice will testify to the Senate Armed Services Committee next week that not only do employees at the agency believe the activities they are being asked to perform are unlawful, but that what has been disclosed so far is only the tip of the iceberg. Tice will tell Congress that former NSA head Gen. Michael Hayden, Bush’s nominee to be the next CIA director, oversaw more illegal activity that has yet to be disclosed: A former intelligence officer for the National Security Agency said Thursday he plans to tell Senate staffers next week that unlawful activity occurred at the agency under the supervision of Gen. Michael Hayden beyond what has been publicly reported, while hinting that it might have involved the illegal use of space-based satellites and systems to spy on U.S. citizens… ...said he plans to tell the committee staffers the NSA conducted illegal and unconstitutional surveillance of U.S. citizens while he was there with the knowledge of Hayden. … “I think the people I talk to next week are going to be shocked when I tell them what I have to tell them. It’s pretty hard to believe,” Tice said. “I hope that they’ll clean up the abuses and have some oversight into these programs, which doesn’t exist right now.” … Tice said his information is different from the Terrorist Surveillance Program that Bush acknowledged in December and from news accounts this week that the NSA has been secretly collecting phone call records of millions of Americans. “It’s an angle that you haven’t heard about yet,” he said. … He would not discuss with a reporter the details of his allegations, saying doing so would compromise classified information and put him at risk of going to jail. He said he “will not confirm or deny” if his allegations involve the illegal use of space systems and satellites. Tice has a history for blowing the whistle on serious misconduct. He was one of the sources that revealed the administration’s warrantless domestic spying program to the New York Times. |
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05-13-2006, 01:42 AM
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#2 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,040
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Here is Bush’s response “Yea I did it, and furthermore the law does not apply to me”
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05-13-2006, 01:57 AM
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#3 | |
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Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location
Posts: 52,697
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Quote:
White House, NSA block investigation of spying With news reports exposing the National Security Agency's previously secret spying on the phone conversations of tens of millions of Americans, what is the status of the U.S. Department of Justice probe of the Bush administration's authorization of a warrantless domestic wiretapping program? The investigation has been closed. That's right. Even as it is being revealed that the president's controversial eavesdropping program is dramatically more extensive – and Constitutionally dubious -- than had been previously known, the Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) has informed Representative Maurice Hinchey that its attempt to determine which administration officials authorized, approved and audited NSA surveillance activities is over. Why? In a letter to Hinchey, the New York Democrat who has been the most dogged Congressional advocate for investigation of the spying program, OPR Counsel H. Marshall Jarrett explained that he had closed the Justice Department probe on Tuesday, May 9, because his office's requests for security clearances to conduct the investigation had been denied. Continued: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?bid=1&pid=83135 |
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05-13-2006, 02:20 AM
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#4 |
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Mo' holla fo' yo' dolla!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: In a bunker in an undisclosed location
Posts: 52,697
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"There seems to be an emerging consensus among the coddled, effete Beltway media stars that it would be highly improper and uncouth for the Democrats -- should they take over one or both houses of Congress in November -- to launch investigations into the various, thus-far-uninvestigated lawbreaking and corruption scandals surrounding the Bush administration." 5/12
http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2...-rude-and.html More evidence of the "liberal media," no doubt. |
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05-13-2006, 01:35 PM
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#5 |
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lets go partner
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lakewood,Colo
Posts: 41,221
Adopt-a-Bronco: Woodyard |
Just some info
http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006...t-nsa-efforts/ Cross-Posted From Gribbit’s Word The Washington Post is reporting on a poll which claims that 66% of Americans support the efforts of the National Security Agency. A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to identify and investigate potential terrorist threats, according to a Washington Post-ABC News poll. The new survey found that 63 percent of Americans said they found the NSA program to be an acceptable way to investigate terrorism, including 44 percent who strongly endorsed the effort. Another 35 percent said the program was unacceptable, which included 24 percent who strongly objected to it. A slightly larger majority–66 percent–said they would not be bothered if NSA collected records of personal calls they had made, the poll found. Underlying those views is the belief that the need to investigate terrorism outweighs privacy concerns. According to the poll, 65 percent of those interviewed said it was more important to investigate potential terrorist threats “even if it intrudes on privacy.” Three in 10–31 percent–said it was more important for the federal government not to intrude on personal privacy, even if that limits its ability to investigate possible terrorist threats. Half–51 percent–approved of the way President Bush was handling privacy matters. The survey results reflect initial public reaction to the NSA program. Those views that could change or deepen as more details about the effort become known over the next few days. Yesterday’s revelations brought out some details from the President, the NSA, and Congressional Intelligence Committee members which outline exactly what was collected by the NSA. Phone records that’s it. The same information which is available on your individual phone bill. This information has been previously ruled by the Supreme Court to not be covered under an expectation of privacy because there are countless numbers of people who are exposed to your phone records before your bill makes it into the envelope. The information collected from AT&T, Verizon, and BellSouth were turned over to the NSA with the companies’ cooperation. Qwest refused to cooperate and according to the most recent information available, has not turned over any information to this point. This fact removes any claim against the government by individual customers. It is now a matter between the customer and their telephone provider. Michelle Malkin wrote in today’s edition of The New York Post President Bush made clear yesterday: “We’re not mining or trolling through the personal lives of millions of innocent Americans. Our efforts are focused on links to al Qaeda and their known affiliates. So far we’ve been very successful in preventing another attack on our soil.” Nevertheless, the civil liberties Chicken Little are screaming “Bu****ler!” on cue. What they should be screaming for are the heads of the blabbermouths endangering all of us by running to the fifth-column press when they don’t get their way in Washington. But you can never find the leak-decriers when you need them, can you? Prediction: To the dismay of the USA Today prize-seekers and fear-stokers, most Americans won’t react to their precious scoop by hysterically throwing their cellphones into the nearest lake and calling for President Bush’s impeachment. I, for one, will be sure to continue to do business with Verizon, in support of its willingness to cooperate with the government to prevent another 9/11. In fact, I think I’ll pick up the phone and give them a call right now. And if you’re listening, NSA: Thank you. I echo Michelle’s comment - Thank You NSA and President Bush for keeping us safe. Ed Morrissey puts in with some good common sense. When we finally acknowledged that Islamist terrorists had declared war on us, George Bush warned us that we would have to make sacrifices in order to beat our enemy. So far, we have not been asked for much in the way of sacrifice. Now that we see how the NSA has kept us safe, we should recognize that the limited loss of privacy on our telephone habits is not much of a sacrifice in giving the intelligence community a tool to root out terrorist sleeper cells. However, we should not dismiss the risks of giving even more power to the federal government so lightly, and we should ensure that the power we do grant them does not get misused. It is good to know that most Americans have common sense, unlike certain senators that would risk our lives to protect our phone numbers from the federal government. H/T: The Drudge Report & Michelle Malkin Others: Rightwing Nuthouse Sister Toldjah Rightwinged Macsmind Strata-sphere Ogre Expose The Left Hot Air Disclamer Gribbit's Word linked with News Breakdown 05.12.06 Small Town Veteran linked with NSA Record Collection OK With Americans BIG DOG'S WEBLOG linked with It’s The Law, Again Iowa Voice linked with Washington Post: Poll Shows Americans Support NSA Programs All Things Beautiful linked with Re-Hash Of An Old Story The Jawa Report linked with Alien Civil Liberties Union Defies American People protein wisdom linked with The "New" NSA Kerfuffle, Day 2 Church and State linked with Liberals Aren't Getting It Atlas Shrugs linked with Phony Phone Foolishness Ogre's Politics & Views linked with NSA "Spying" vs. Privacy [Comments_(15)] [Printable_Version] [Permalink] [Trackback_URI] [Trackback URI] right click+copy shortcut 15 Responses 1. Trackback by Ogre's Politics & Views on May 12th, 2006 @ 10:13 am NSA “Spying” vs. Privacy The biggest issue in the NSA case is that there really is nothing even close to illegal going on here. There are, very clearly, and according to settled case law, NO privacy violations going on. 2. Trackback by Atlas Shrugs on May 12th, 2006 @ 10:28 am Phony Phone Foolishness I am stunned by the lunatics elected by the uninformed (thank the media) scream bloody murder about the latest NSA canard. The 12 imam is on his way (at least ah-mad-mini-me seems to think so), the worldwide Islamic extremist movement 3. Trackback by Church and State on May 12th, 2006 @ 10:48 am Liberals Aren’t Getting It Check out these two absurd points by Zack Exley at the Huffington Post: 1) Bush already had the freedom to spy on anyone he wanted… 4. Pingback by Hot Air » Blog Archive » Press hates NSA data mining; public, not so much on May 12th, 2006 @ 12:00 pm […] The media is aghast but the rabble stubbornly cling to their belief that (a) there might just be something to this terrorism thing, and (b) fighting it with a mass eavesdropping program is okay if the program doesn’t actually involve, you know, eavesdropping. […] 5. Pingback by Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » The American People Understand on May 12th, 2006 @ 12:18 pm […] Stop The ACLU Al Qaeda Data Mining nsa Telephone Wiretaps Filed in: MSM Bias, NSA Wiretap’s, CIA Leak | No Comments » […] 6. Trackback by protein wisdom on May 12th, 2006 @ 12:19 pm The "New" NSA Kerfuffle, Day 2 Even as a Washington Post/ABC News poll -- in itself a bit deceiving (on which, more later) -- reveals that 66% of Americans "said they would not be bothered if NSA collected records of personal calls they had made," many of t… 7. Trackback by The Jawa Report on May 12th, 2006 @ 12:28 pm Alien Civil Liberties Union Defies American People Americans said this; the ACLU said this. Thank goodness for these guys. Really the idea that someone looks out for my civil Liberties is a good one. Except for the fact that, when you or I call them for help,… 8. Trackback by All Things Beautiful on May 12th, 2006 @ 1:51 pm Re-Hash Of An Old Story Well excuse me for not being over-excited about a re-hash of an old story, the timing of which stinks to high heaven. The hysterical drama queens on the left are out in full force. AhemNo sooner had the man who ran the National Security Agency for year… 9. Trackback by Iowa Voice on May 12th, 2006 @ 2:06 pm Washington Post: Poll Shows Americans Support NSA Programs Not a big fan of polls, obviously, so take this for what it’s worth: A majority of Americans initially support a controversial National Security Agency program to collect information on telephone calls made in the United States in an effort to iden… 10. Pingback by third world county » Blog Archive » NSA Kerffufle Redux on May 12th, 2006 @ 5:17 pm […] h.t. STACLU on the WaPo article. […] 11. Trackback by BIG DOG'S WEBLOG on May 12th, 2006 @ 6:12 pm It’s The Law, Again The whole Terrorist Surveillance Program drew fire despite the fact that the process is legal and that status has been upheld by several courts who ruled the President had inherent authority to conduct such operations. Now we have this non-revelation … 12. Trackback by Small Town Veteran on May 12th, 2006 @ 7:19 pm NSA Record Collection OK With Americans NSA Record Collection OK With AmericansJohn Hinderaker ABC reports on the results of its overnight poll on the public’s response to the leak about the NSA’s phone record analysis program:Americans by nearly a 2-1 ratio call the surveillance of telephone 13. Trackback by Gribbit's Word on May 12th, 2006 @ 7:36 pm News Breakdown 05.12.06 Busy Busy Busy day news wise. Around mid-morning, Jay called and asked that I post something on the poll information regarding the NSA phone records investigation which you can read here if you like. I did some poking around and… 14. Pingback by white pebble » Listening in on May 12th, 2006 @ 8:30 pm […] The media is aghast but the rabble stubbornly cling to their belief that (a) there might just be something to this terrorism thing, and (b) fighting it with a mass eavesdropping program is okay if the program doesn’t actually involve, you know, eavesdropping. […] 15. Pingback by Webloggin - Blog Archive » Washington Post – ABC Poll Sends Trumped Up NSA Spy Story Packing on May 12th, 2006 @ 9:39 pm […] Stop the ACLU - Most Americans Support NSA Efforts […] |
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05-13-2006, 01:43 PM
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#6 |
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Mr Diplomacy
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Elway was just an arm =MacGruder
Posts: 84,438
Adopt-a-Bronco: Von Miller |
poll on this , when we dont have all the info of what happened ....... people approving of stuff they dont even know ...... there a shocker . just attach 9-11 Terrorist yadda , yadda, yadda , People will buy it ......
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05-13-2006, 03:06 PM
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#7 | ||
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Angling in the Deep
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains
Posts: 24,281
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05-13-2006, 04:31 PM
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#8 |
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lets go partner
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lakewood,Colo
Posts: 41,221
Adopt-a-Bronco: Woodyard |
Oh, sorry, it's not 1942. It's 2006, and these three phone giants are about to be excoriated for cooperating with the war on terror. Senate Judiciary Committee chairman Arlen Specter has demanded that ATT, Verizon, and BellSouth testify under oath about their assistance to the National Security Agency's counterterrorism programs; 50 House Democrats are demanding a criminal investigation by special counsel.
Here we go again: another specious privacy scandal. The disclosure by USA Today that these three telecom companies have given the government access to trillions of anonymized domestic calling records has sent Bush administration critics, privacy advocates, and the press into an ecstatic frenzy of denunciation and fear-mongering. This newly energized coalition charges that the White House is trampling citizens' constitutional rights and creating a surveillance state. And the Bush administration has only itself to blame. Ever since allowing the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness project to go down the tubes in 2003, the administration has failed to explain the potential of data mining, even as it secretly continues to use this vital technology. Thus, at every revelation of a government data mining program, privacy extremists enjoy unchallenged supremacy in characterizing the technology as a massive threat to life as we know it. Only a paranoid solipsist could feel threatened by the recently revealed calling analysis program. Since late 2001, Verizon, BellSouth, and ATT have connected nearly two trillion calls, according to the Washington Post. The companies gave NSA the incoming and outgoing numbers of those calls, stripped of all identifying information such as name or address. No conversational content was included. The NSA then put its supercharged computers to work analyzing patterns among the four trillion numbers involved in the two trillion calls, to look for clusters that might suggest terrorist connections. Though the details are unknown, they might search for calls to known terrorists, or, more speculatively, try to elicit templates of terror calling behavior from the data. As a practical matter, no one's privacy is violated by such analysis. Memo to privacy nuts: The computer does not have a clue that you exist; it does not know what it is churning through; your phone number is meaningless to it. The press loves to stress the astounding volume of data that data mining can consume--the Washington Post's lead on May 12 warned that the administration had been "secretly . . . assembling gargantuan databases." But it is precisely the size of that data store that renders the image of individualized snooping so absurd. True, the government can de-anonymize the data if connections to terror suspects emerge, and it is not known what threshold of proof the government uses to put a name to critical phone numbers. But until that point is reached, your privacy is at greater risk from the Goodyear blimp at a Stones concert than from the NSA's supercomputers churning through trillions of zeros and ones representing disembodied phone numbers. And even after that point is reached, the notion that 280 million Americans who have not been communicating with al Qaeda are at risk from this quadrillion-bit program is absurd. What exactly are the privacy advocates worried about? That an NSA agent will search the phone records of his ex-wife or of themselves? This quaint scenario completely misunderstands the scale of, and bureaucratic checks on, such data analysis programs. As a constitutional matter, no one's privacy is violated by such automated analysis of business records. Senator Dianne Feinstein needs to brush up on her legal doctrine when she decries the program as a "major constitutional confrontation on Fourth Amendment guarantees of unreasonable search and seizure." There is no Fourth Amendment protection for information that you have conveyed to a third party. Your phone company at the very least--if not a score of marketers--knows your calling history; that history is no longer private, therefore, and the government can obtain your phone records without a judicial warrant. Congress has provided statutory protections for certain kinds of telecommunications information, but those statutes allow telephone companies to share their data with the government for emergencies. After 9/11, a phone executive who didn't believe that the country was in danger of another catastrophic attack was seriously out of touch with reality. And the volume of data requested almost by definition protects the privacy of any individual customer. The Washington Post calls this numbers analysis the "most extensive . . . domestic surveillance [program] yet known involving ordinary citizens and residents." Bunk. The NSA's data mining program is not surveillance; no one is being listened to or observed. Data mining looks for mathematical patterns in computerized information; it is not a real-time spying operation. The government didn't need to go to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court for a wiretap or pen register order (which governs the collection of phone numbers in real time from a single phone) because [0] it is not listening to or recording any individual's calls. FISA is built around the notion of an individualized investigation of specific spies or terrorists; it is seriously outdated for the application of American computer know-how to ferret out terror plots before they happen and before the government has individual suspects in mind. But it may be too late to convey these truths. The time to explain how data mining protects privacy while providing a crucial tool against unknown mass-murderers was while the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program was under attack. That program, which hoped to uncover patterns of terrorist activity in publicly available commercial data, was merely in its preliminary research stages, but the Senate killed it in a demagogic display of privacy hysteria. Having lost that battle without fighting, the administration has gone silent on the value of data mining, presumably terrified of another privacy fiasco. After the revelation last December of another large-scale NSA program analyzing international calls to terror suspects, the administration denied that data mining was involved. It also implied that domestic phone traffic was off-limits. And now, President Bush defends this latest program in the most anodyne of terms, asserting baldly that the "privacy of ordinary Americans is fiercely protected in all our activities." His credibility, after the previous denials of data mining and failure to clarify its character, is, to say the least, weak. Cooperation between the private sector and intelligence agencies is crucial for uncovering terrorist plots. After 9/11, JetBlue Airways and Northwest Airlines offered privacy-protected passenger records to NASA and the Pentagon for research to see if data-mining could aid in identifying terrorist flight behavior. No passenger's privacy was violated, yet these two companies now face hundreds of billions of dollars in privacy lawsuits. The class action bar is undoubtedly gearing up for a similar assault on ATT, Verizon, and BellSouth, an abuse of tort law that will further discourage patriotic corporate behavior. The American public is adult enough, one hopes, to cope with the idea of a government computer analyzing commercial and communications data as a protection against terrorism. If only someone would trust them with the facts. |
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05-13-2006, 06:01 PM
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Angling in the Deep
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Texas Riviera, Southern Mountains
Posts: 24,281
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05-15-2006, 07:55 AM
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#10 |
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Bleedin' orange!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Mile High
Posts: 20,018
Adopt-a-Bronco: Howard Griffith |
Bump! I see no hands, just single fingers!
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05-15-2006, 08:33 AM
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#11 |
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Host
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: As if I'd tell you crazies!
Posts: 14,214
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Later polls show less support. In fact, they show a majority disapproving:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...384/-1/ZONES01 http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12771821/site/newsweek/ |
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05-15-2006, 08:53 AM
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#12 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,232
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And the folks not raising their hands? Well, the nano-second a successful attack occurs by the terrorists on US soil (and they will hit us again, rest assured on that) , these same people will be crying why didn't you stop this Uncle Sam. Hypocritical to a point. I honestly believe the need to analyse patterns of phone calls and other indicating factors is ABSOLUTELY necessary. And it makes a lot of sense. The out and out "spying" on americans (UNLESS THEY ARE UNDER INVESTIGATION OF SUPPORTING THE TERRORISTS IN ONE WAY, SHAPE OR FORM) I do not condone...but , I'll say it again, the same group against this form of monitoring, well, IT"S A CATCH-22 FOLKS!!!!!! Wake up and smell what you are shoveling. You can't have your cake and eat it too...dman
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05-15-2006, 10:27 AM
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#13 | |
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Armchair Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 22,076
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 I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have nothing to hide. Those who do have something to hide should be afraid. The logistics of spying on average conversations all over America is too great for innocent Americans to worry about this program. They are looking for anybody plotting to do harm to Americans and not worrying about someone calling their mother to wish her a Happy Mother's Day, for instance. |
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05-15-2006, 10:35 AM
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#14 | |
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Bleedin' orange!
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Mile High
Posts: 20,018
Adopt-a-Bronco: Howard Griffith |
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05-15-2006, 10:35 AM
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#15 | |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,445
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And yes things pop up and they don't have time to get a warent every time before they start listening, but I mean they have 72 hours to go back get a warrent to continue listening. They don't even bother to do that. It is not the wire tapping probrams themselves I have a problem with, it is the way Bush goes about it. As if he is above oversight of the other two branches of government, which is not the case. The government was set up in a way to have the three branches of government keep an eye on each other. |
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05-15-2006, 10:36 AM
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#16 | |
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Marginally Continent
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Folsom Prison
Posts: 19,935
Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens |
Quote:
I agree, but there's a pattern of not just lying about intell, but also using intell to destroy political enemies, so I'll be very surprised if there aren't warrantless taps of protesters, taps to discourage muslims from giving money to any group the might give some to hamas (even though our tax money is going to pay Palestinian civil servants). As for data mining, the fact that they aren't discussing the legit uses, and there seem to be some, in analyizing what's "normal" calling patterns and "not normal," makes me suspect that at the least, they are using "suspicion" to justify more warrantless taps. And the HAVE to be doing the same with email and cell phones, because any terrorist reasonably competent would be using disposable cells, like drug dealers, and internet cafes. |
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05-15-2006, 10:44 AM
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#17 | |
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Armchair Poster
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 22,076
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05-15-2006, 10:48 AM
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#18 |
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Marginally Continent
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Folsom Prison
Posts: 19,935
Adopt-a-Bronco: David Bowens |
If you still believe Bushii after Iraq, I gotta bridge ....
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05-15-2006, 10:49 AM
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#19 | |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,445
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How ever as more details are revealed we will should get a better picture of what is happening. But my days of just taking Bush's word for anything are over. |
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05-15-2006, 11:38 AM
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#20 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,232
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I agree with you on the point of taking him at his word. However, there are going to be some issues he "gives his word on" and he simply cannot produce evidence supporting based on national security. We have to recognize this. On the same token, some of the issues he can come forward on, he should. Tonight, he'll lay out his policy on the border. I'm guessing national guard is at the forefront. He needs to state EXACTLY what he's going to do, and how he is going to do it. Simple as that. He can I believe, put most of the answers on the table without a negative impact on the border securing issues..dman
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05-15-2006, 11:49 AM
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#21 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,445
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I know there are things that no President cann't speak to because of national security, but it would ease alot of people's fears if they felt that the other two branches of government are being informed and consulted with. It doesn't have to be in public. But it doesn't seem to me that Bush is keeping congress advised on these programs. If he has nothing to hide why is he keeping a secret from members of congress how have the security clearence to know about such things.
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05-15-2006, 11:51 AM
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#22 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,232
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are we SURE he isn't keeping congress informed? I mean really sure? Not looking for an excuse for GW , however, I've seen stranger things than this out of any one presidency...dman
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05-15-2006, 11:59 AM
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#23 |
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Guerrilla Ontologist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Future
Posts: 42,723
Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia |
Why are regular americans guilty, and not assumed innocent?
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05-15-2006, 12:23 PM
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#24 |
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Ring of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 9,232
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They are supposed to be assumed innocent, however, often the innocent american is tried and convicted in the local and national "newsrags". the Duke lacross players is a good example of that. Some of their lives may be forever changed, and yet, they may have done nothing. I guess the president gets the same, eh?....dman
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05-15-2006, 12:32 PM
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#25 |
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Guerrilla Ontologist
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Future
Posts: 42,723
Adopt-a-Bronco: Prima Materia |
Heh, so we all get the taste of our own medicine
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