A *real* threat to our economy

[enjolras]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...gn_id=bier_tca

My experience certainly backs this up. In attempting to hire developers, it has become rather clear that Americans are in a bad way.

The biggest threat to our economy isn't globalization or immigrants...its our educational laziness. We're producing mountains of business majors who aren't capable of producing anything. Meanwhile engineering, computer science, and science in general has eroded.

That's a serious long term threat.

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by enjolras

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...gn_id=bier_tca

My experience certainly backs this up. In attempting to hire developers, it has become rather clear that Americans are in a bad way.

The biggest threat to our economy isn't globalization or immigrants...its our educational laziness. We're producing mountains of business majors who aren't capable of producing anything. Meanwhile engineering, computer science, and science in general has eroded.

That's a serious long term threat.

I am constantly exposed to engineering "graduates" who have obviously neglegted to take their studies seriously. They enter their respective professions without the knowledge required to succeed!
During the past couple of years I have encountered two project engineers who have made my life a living hell due to their lack of education. They were graduates, but I wonder what they were doing while the rest of the students were in class. I find myself tutoring those who should be designing and/ or inspecting my projects!

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

I am constantly exposed to engineering "graduates" who have obviously neglegted to take their studies seriously. They enter their respective professions without the knowledge required to succeed!
During the past couple of years I have encountered two project engineers who have made my life a living hell due to their lack of education. They were graduates, but I wonder what they were doing while the rest of the students were in class. I find myself tutoring those who should be designing and/ or inspecting my projects!

Where do you work, what school did they graduate from, and what was their degree in?

There are few programs out there for actual project engineers. Most project engineers are mechanical engineers or equivalent shoved into a job that they know little about.

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by enjolras

The biggest threat to our economy isn't globalization or immigrants...its our educational laziness. We're producing mountains of business majors who aren't capable of producing anything. Meanwhile engineering, computer science, and science in general has eroded.

That's a serious long term threat.

BINGO.

I'm so sick and tired of pundits and others looking outside the US for someone/something to blame. By far the biggest problems are of OUR OWN MAKING. And no, LABF and the others who want to blame Bush are completely off the mark.

We NEED to get our own house straightened out FIRST.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by enjolras

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...gn_id=bier_tca

My experience certainly backs this up. In attempting to hire developers, it has become rather clear that Americans are in a bad way.

The biggest threat to our economy isn't globalization or immigrants...its our educational laziness. We're producing mountains of business majors who aren't capable of producing anything. Meanwhile engineering, computer science, and science in general has eroded.

That's a serious long term threat.

They are reacting to today's economy. We are a service economy not a production economy, as such the need for business majors is up (ie sales) while technical jobs is down. The jobs out there aren't technical jobs, but sales oriented jobs. So why should kids go to college to get degrees that there is no market for?



Computer science majors are down? I may be out of touch but I find that hard to believe.

[TailgateNut]

Originally Posted by Rascal

Where do you work, what school did they graduate from, and what was their degree in?

There are few programs out there for actual project engineers. Most project engineers are mechanical engineers or equivalent shoved into a job that they know little about.

I manage construction of civil projects (hwy and infrastructure) and industrial plants (power generation and water/ wastewater treatment).
The project engineers I deal with on a daily basis have usually studied mechanical, structural or civil engineering.
I agree with your take that the problem may be that they are not well versed with the overall complexities of the project they are tasked to oversee, but why are they hired/ placed in a position they are not qualified to perform?

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

I manage construction of civil projects (hwy and infrastructure) and industrial plants (power generation and water/ wastewater treatment).
The project engineers I deal with on a daily basis have usually studied mechanical, structural or civil engineering.
I agree with your take that the problem may be that they are not well versed with the overall complexities of the project they are tasked to oversee, but why are they hired/ placed in a position they are not qualified to perform?

Project engineering is a lot different then mechanical and structual...although in your line of work civil engineering shouldn't be too much of a step. There are very few project engineering programs and most of them focus on the management side more then anything else (a touch of engineering and a heavy dose of management crap).

A big problem is that a lot of these schools are forcing down these students meaningless crap that they will never or one that is changing consistently. Example...I had to take two classes over the current quality crap that's going around and no more then 2 years after being in the field something new came out. Instead of focusing on the current buzz words for 3-6 credits (sig sigma, 5s+1, etc) they should have a simple 1 hour course that shows them the history of it (not real important), the current state of things (somewhat important), and where to go to keep upto date as things change (the actual important crap).

Sorry that's one of my pet peeves. I'll get off my soap box.

[alkemical]

because business feel they can get some kid, pay them less that an expierenced person just because they have 'paper' that says they can do the job.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

Originally Posted by amesj523

because business feel they can get some kid, pay them less that an expierenced person just because they have 'paper' that says they can do the job.

Can't agree with that ames. I hire almost weekly for very well paying jobs and one of the last things I look at is their educational background. I bet if I surveyed my clients, they would say the same.

I used to have a boss that claimed the greatest value of a degree was that it gave you an extra four years to grow up before you entered the job market.

[Rascal]

Originally Posted by Big Guy

Can't agree with that ames. I hire almost weekly for very well paying jobs and one of the last things I look at is their educational background. I bet if I surveyed my clients, they would say the same.

I used to have a boss that claimed the greatest value of a degree was that it gave you an extra four years to grow up before you entered the job market.

I don't think you understood what he was saying but I'll let him clarify for sure.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by Big Guy

Can't agree with that ames. I hire almost weekly for very well paying jobs and one of the last things I look at is their educational background. I bet if I surveyed my clients, they would say the same.

I used to have a boss that claimed the greatest value of a degree was that it gave you an extra four years to grow up before you entered the job market.

You may big guy, but not here where i'm at. I'm seeing a shift back to expierence, etc - but it's still pretty valued...

[enjolras]

Originally Posted by W*GS

BINGO.

I'm so sick and tired of pundits and others looking outside the US for someone/something to blame. By far the biggest problems are of OUR OWN MAKING. And no, LABF and the others who want to blame Bush are completely off the mark.

We NEED to get our own house straightened out FIRST.

I would argue that Bush and friends are a SYMPTOM of the problem. They are the byproduct of a culture that has shunned fundamental education (and logic) and instead is only capable of decision making that appeals to emotion rather than anything more rationale.

[enjolras]

Originally Posted by Rascal

They are reacting to today's economy. We are a service economy not a production economy, as such the need for business majors is up (ie sales) while technical jobs is down. The jobs out there aren't technical jobs, but sales oriented jobs. So why should kids go to college to get degrees that there is no market for?



Computer science majors are down? I may be out of touch but I find that hard to believe.

Yes, way down. Less kids are going into technical/science professions across the board. Yet there are still HUGE numbers of technical jobs that remain unfilled. Our economy is not sales based, and we continue to do most of the world technical 'production'. Kids are not going into computer science more because they are fundamentally disinterested in any form of science and lack the fundamental skills in math/logic as well.

There is an on-going problem with finding computer science graduates that are qualified to do much of anything. We currently have 8 open positions.. most of which have been open for several months. We can't find anyone even remotely qualified to fill them (our requirements ARE fairly high, but that shouldn't be a problem).

We've had to look overseas to start filling jobs.. not by choice, but by neccesity.

[enjolras]

Originally Posted by Big Guy

Can't agree with that ames. I hire almost weekly for very well paying jobs and one of the last things I look at is their educational background. I bet if I surveyed my clients, they would say the same.

I used to have a boss that claimed the greatest value of a degree was that it gave you an extra four years to grow up before you entered the job market.

I would second this. We have developers on staff that range from people who never went to college to PhD holders... all are smart people who do a very good job.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by enjolras

Yes, way down. Less kids are going into technical/science professions across the board. Yet there are still HUGE numbers of technical jobs that remain unfilled. Our economy is not sales based, and we continue to do most of the world technical 'production'. Kids are not going into computer science more because they are fundamentally disinterested in any form of science and lack the fundamental skills in math/logic as well.

There is an on-going problem with finding computer science graduates that are qualified to do much of anything. We currently have 8 open positions.. most of which have been open for several months. We can't find anyone even remotely qualified to fill them (our requirements ARE fairly high, but that shouldn't be a problem).

We've had to look overseas to start filling jobs.. not by choice, but by neccesity.

do you have a posting on monster?

[enjolras]

I think the monster ads have actually lapsed at this point. We've traditionally gotten our best response from dice.com, just search for Quickoffice.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by The O'W*GS Factor

I'm so sick and tired of pundits and others looking outside the US for someone/something to blame. By far the biggest problems are of OUR OWN MAKING. And no, LABF and the others who want to blame Bush are completely off the mark.

Riiiiiiiight. What were we thinking? Everybody can see that the frat boy has taken giant steps to address the problem in the six years he's been squatting in the WH.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Originally Posted by enjolras

We're producing mountains of business majors who aren't capable of producing anything.

What about tanning salons and fried chicken huts?

Those have gotta count for something!

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

The the cover of the Business 2.0 magazine I just got in the mail, says in my words - the Next Job Boom - everyone is looking and everyone is hiring. I suspect that is about right . Haven't had a chance to read it yet

[Jesterhole]

What kills me is that we spend 9 billion a month on Iraq. Imagine if that kind of money went into education, and a new form of GI bill...except this time any American would be eligible.

[Spider]

I knew along time ago , for me to get anywhere was to learn a trade .......So I took up a very skilled trade in trucking ..........took me along time to get anywhere , but I do very well now ...........

[W*GS]

Originally Posted by L.A. BRONCOS FAN

Riiiiiiiight. What were we thinking? Everybody can see that the frat boy has taken giant steps to address the problem in the six years he's been squatting in the WH.

Geezus - do you look to the President to solve every problem in the world?

Hint: Bush, or any other President, isn't your Daddy, and isn't responsible (nor does any sane person want the office to have the power) for "fixing" the economy.

[Cito Pelon]

Originally Posted by TailgateNut

I am constantly exposed to engineering "graduates" who have obviously neglegted to take their studies seriously. They enter their respective professions without the knowledge required to succeed!
During the past couple of years I have encountered two project engineers who have made my life a living hell due to their lack of education. They were graduates, but I wonder what they were doing while the rest of the students were in class. I find myself tutoring those who should be designing and/ or inspecting my projects!

I look at it this way - there's 2 classes of people in production and technology fields. Engineers and technicians. It doesn't matter what the education level is; if the person is thorough, organized, get's pissed off when perfection and timelines are not attained, takes measures to ensure perfection is achieved while meeting timelines, then they are engineer material. The rest are technician material.

[loborugger]

Originally Posted by enjolras

I would argue that Bush and friends are a SYMPTOM of the problem. They are the byproduct of a culture that has shunned fundamental education (and logic) and instead is only capable of decision making that appeals to emotion rather than anything more rationale.

I agree with that 100 percent - which is why the other side of the aisle isnt any better. Both sides pander to the masses.

[alkemical]

Originally Posted by loborugger

I agree with that 100 percent - which is why the other side of the aisle isnt any better. Both sides pander to the ma$$e$.

i fixed your post.