Here's a question?

[azbroncfan]

Look around at some of the draft threads and posts and you would think that the broncos are terrible at the draft. I have come to the conclusion that Denver has been pretty successful drafting players overall. First round success doesn't define a successful draft and denver has had a terrible draft the middlebrooks tovessi draft. I think that all teams fans would say the same thing about their teams. All teams have good and bad picks, but I don't follow other teams to analyze how good their drafts are so I propose the question? Are the broncos that bad at drafting as people say around here?

[Play2win]

No DAVID GIBBS, NO PROBLEM !!!!

[SoCalBronco]

Denver is actually pretty good in the early rounds, its just that we cant do anything in 5TH at all and havent done a whole lot on Day 2.



Firsts
04: Williams- Potentially Great Player- Solid starter
03: Foster- Solid starter
02: Lelie- Solid starter
01- Middlebrooks- Bust
00- O'Neal- Bust (for Denver)

60% hit rate.

2nd Rounders
05: D-Will: Solid Starter- Potentially Great Player
04: Bell: Inconsistent.
04 Watts: 1 good season, 1 awful season.
03: Pierce: Bust
02: Portis: Big Time Hit
01: Toviessi: Bust
00: Gold: I hate him, but most people believe he is a solid starter at least
and one of our better players.
00: Kennedy: Solid Starter when he was here, improved in coverage in 04.

Hit Rate: 50%

Third Round

05: Paymah: Too early to tell. We'll give him an Incomplete at this point. We'll keep him out of the equation.
05: Foxworth: Definitely a hit. Solid Nickel back, can start in a pinch. Smart and high charcter.
05: MoC: Huge Bust.
04: LeSueur (or as Mock accurately depicted, LaSewer): Bust.
02: Davis: Bust.
01: Hayward: Hit.
00: Cole: Bust

Hit Rate: 33% (so far the trend is about as it should be, as the talent thins out in the draft, the hit rate gets lower, incrementally, although the 17 point drop here is a little too big).

4th Round
03: Q - Did some things here, but definitely didnt cut it. Good kid though, just didnt produce consistently.
03: Eason: Bust
03: McNeal: Bust
02: Brandon: Hit. Took him awhile to get back to his rookie form but he did it this year.
01: Hamilton: Hit.
01: Harris- HUGE BUST.
00: Johnson- Miss.
00: Carlisle- he's probably the worst of the OL but to be a competent starter in the league for a 4th rounder isnt bad. Hit.

Hit Rate: 37.5%

5th Round
04: Shoate- Miss, although I liked how good he was in run support for a corner in the 04 preseason. We were all crying for Karney or Utecht in the chatroom when the pick came down, ill never forget it.
03: Claxton- HUGE BUST, didnt even make it to camp.
03: Madise- Miss. Had some good physical tools and in typical Bronco rookie WR fashion, wowed at minicamp and then disappeared.
02: Haygood- Miss.
00: Moore- got hurt in camp. Miss

Hit Rate: 0% HERE IS WHERE WE GET KILLED. NOTHING IN FIFTH AT ALL. Its not even an incremental drop. Its just NOTHING. You cant go 5 years without a single decent player in Round 5.

6th Round

05: Myers- Too early to tell, although he is promising, like Paymah, we just havent seen him often enough in real game action. I like the kid though (homer), but we will take him out of the equation. Nothing really to go by.

04: Luke- Miss.
04: Sewell- Quit on the team. Thanks alot DB.
03: Hunt- Miss.
02: Putz- Hit.
01: Kasper- Miss...similar to Madise. Hype and then crap. Mock pretty much had it right here, didnt do anything but " acting like the great white hope who shaves his balls".
00- MA- Big Hit.

Hit Rate: 33%

7th
05: Ernster- looked good in camp, didnt see it in the preseason though. We'll keep it incomplete.
04: Mauck- Gone.
04: Miree- PS player.
04: BVP- Hit. He might not be that good, but he has some skills is getting better I suppose. Not bad for a 7th.
03: Mitchell- miss
03: Galloway- miss
02: young- miss
02: Pope- I thought he was serviceable.
00: JJ- Miss
00: Fields- Miss.

Hit Rate: 22%

It looks about how it should for a draft, incremental decreases more or less each round except for the 5th where we are getting RAPED and the drop from Round 2 to Round 3 is severe.
3rd and the 5th are the real problem areas.

[Play2win]

Yeah, McNeal didn't quite turn out as the next Jason Taylor like I was hoping **Dreaming** for...

[Odysseus]

I think recently Broncos off seasons have been interesting in how they go after quality inexpensive FA to combine with solid draft picks. I think they are chronic B students during draft season but there are some A drafting teams who suck chronically all year long so I don't get bent over the draft.

The Broncos fans are critical by nature. We are pissed off as a group they don't go win every single game and send Nick Bonicotti to an early grave. The Broncos are good team with good coaches and make some smart decisions but they aren't flawless. It's a good problem to have pissed off fans. When the fans stop caring that is when you can honestly say your team sucks.

EDIT: I think where the Broncos don't recieve enough credit is their innovations in free agency and how they have been scoring with UDFA market. It's that chronic search for Terrell Davis that makes it so funny. Every year they discover camp fodder that is intriguing. I like that problem. I swear there is a mole at Wal-Mart.

[wabbit]

Hey, I'm sorry if I startled the newer folks here, taking off on a rant about Mikes' drafting skills, or lack thereof.

I just thought I'd get it out of the way PRIOR to the draft.

The fact is that the Broncos are not categorically 'bad', as you note in your post of concern.

There seems no end to the mindless acts of stupidity played out on draft day that greatly over-shadow any Travis Griff the Broncos may've decided was the next Rod Smith.

It does make you wonder, however, if any of these people really need those expensive scout teams if they're going to ignore their warnings & advice.

I am only verbalizing because the Broncos are my team, and when you have a great coach with a great system...and Mike won't be here forever, you expect success a la Bill Belichick & the Patriots.

With a staff that is...in my mind anyway...head & shoulders above many in the league, all it takes is making sound decisions on the players you put on the field, and maybe...going out on a limb here, I know... avoid that 'gut' feeling as gospel until you reach the later rounds of the draft.

If Mike can somehow cross his legs or chew gum or something while that kid his maid's father told him was almost certainly going to be the next great (fill in the blank)...I'd be a happy guy.

[Play2win]

WELL, with no more DAVID GIBBS, I am much more optimistic than I have been in the past. That, and 2 first round picks

[watermock]

Wabbit, I heard there is a friend of Elway's wife that knows David Gibbs that knows the coach in Minnesota Golpher land and we will be taking Monroney with 15.

Thank God those days are gone.

I will just take my sedation in a couple weeks and laugh like that 70's show.

[Odysseus]

Why do Broncos recievers always suck? Is the draft? Coaching? A curse from Al Davis? We could get Javon Walker and he'll turn into Madise. Is it how the Broncos use the Recievers?

The Broncos don't seem to know when to pass or run despite their success. The abandon the run when they are successful with it and that start trying to spread the ball when none of the recievers have been open all day. I don't get it. Jake takes some of the hit I'm sure but it seems indemic to the team as never having a front four on defense.

Rod Smith is like a Broncos miracle baby.

[azbroncfan]

Originally Posted by SoCalBronco

Denver is actually pretty good in the early rounds, its just that we cant do anything in 5TH at all and havent done a whole lot on Day 2.



Firsts
04: Williams- Potentially Great Player- Solid starter
03: Foster- Solid starter
02: Lelie- Solid starter
01- Middlebrooks- Bust
00- O'Neal- Bust (for Denver)

60% hit rate.

2nd Rounders
05: D-Will: Solid Starter- Potentially Great Player
04: Bell: Inconsistent.
04 Watts: 1 good season, 1 awful season.
03: Pierce: Bust
02: Portis: Big Time Hit
01: Toviessi: Bust
00: Gold: I hate him, but most people believe he is a solid starter at least
and one of our better players.
00: Kennedy: Solid Starter when he was here, improved in coverage in 04.

Hit Rate: 50%

Third Round

05: Paymah: Too early to tell. We'll give him an Incomplete at this point. We'll keep him out of the equation.
05: Foxworth: Definitely a hit. Solid Nickel back, can start in a pinch. Smart and high charcter.
05: MoC: Huge Bust.
04: LeSueur (or as Mock accurately depicted, LaSewer): Bust.
02: Davis: Bust.
01: Hayward: Hit.
00: Cole: Bust

Hit Rate: 33% (so far the trend is about as it should be, as the talent thins out in the draft, the hit rate gets lower, incrementally, although the 17 point drop here is a little too big).

4th Round
03: Q - Did some things here, but definitely didnt cut it. Good kid though, just didnt produce consistently.
03: Eason: Bust
03: McNeal: Bust
02: Brandon: Hit. Took him awhile to get back to his rookie form but he did it this year.
01: Hamilton: Hit.
01: Harris- HUGE BUST.
00: Johnson- Miss.
00: Carlisle- he's probably the worst of the OL but to be a competent starter in the league for a 4th rounder isnt bad. Hit.

Hit Rate: 37.5%

5th Round
04: Shoate- Miss, although I liked how good he was in run support for a corner in the 04 preseason. We were all crying for Karney or Utecht in the chatroom when the pick came down, ill never forget it.
03: Claxton- HUGE BUST, didnt even make it to camp.
03: Madise- Miss. Had some good physical tools and in typical Bronco rookie WR fashion, wowed at minicamp and then disappeared.
02: Haygood- Miss.
00: Moore- got hurt in camp. Miss

Hit Rate: 0% HERE IS WHERE WE GET KILLED. NOTHING IN FIFTH AT ALL. Its not even an incremental drop. Its just NOTHING. You cant go 5 years without a single decent player in Round 5.

6th Round

05: Myers- Too early to tell, although he is promising, like Paymah, we just havent seen him often enough in real game action. I like the kid though (homer), but we will take him out of the equation. Nothing really to go by.

04: Luke- Miss.
04: Sewell- Quit on the team. Thanks alot DB.
03: Hunt- Miss.
02: Putz- Hit.
01: Kasper- Miss...similar to Madise. Hype and then crap. Mock pretty much had it right here, didnt do anything but " acting like the great white hope who shaves his balls".
00- MA- Big Hit.

Hit Rate: 33%

7th
05: Ernster- looked good in camp, didnt see it in the preseason though. We'll keep it incomplete.
04: Mauck- Gone.
04: Miree- PS player.
04: BVP- Hit. He might not be that good, but he has some skills is getting better I suppose. Not bad for a 7th.
03: Mitchell- miss
03: Galloway- miss
02: young- miss
02: Pope- I thought he was serviceable.
00: JJ- Miss
00: Fields- Miss.

Hit Rate: 22%

It looks about how it should for a draft, incremental decreases more or less each round except for the 5th where we are getting RAPED and the drop from Round 2 to Round 3 is severe.
3rd and the 5th are the real problem areas.

I think if you picked any team in the NFL and broke it down like this it would look very similar. I think Den has done a good job. The whole Offense is draft picks except Jake, TE, and FB, and the D is mostly FA's on DL, LB all picks, Secondary is 50-50. Everyteam picks busts and has second day picks that contribute.

[Billy Clyde Puckett]

If you look at SoCal's rankings or any other ranking the Broncs will compare favorably to any team in the league. The draft is a crapshoot, just like any hiring process. Any business can spend tons of money looking at past performance, testing and getting references and still only hit 50% good hires.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by azbroncfan

I think if you picked any team in the NFL and broke it down like this it would look very similar. I think Den has done a good job. The whole Offense is draft picks except Jake, TE, and FB, and the D is mostly FA's on DL, LB all picks, Secondary is 50-50. Everyteam picks busts and has second day picks that contribute.

Sorry, I just can't agree with that. Simply being in the NFL does not make someone a "hit" in the draft pick category. I'd also refrain from calling any of last year's guys hits, since we've seen a lot of draft classes look great in the beginning only to disappear a year later. Brandon is a backup who sees a decent amount of playing time, he's in the NFL but he's not a great pick. I understand that not every guy can be a starter, but it shows just how bad the later drafting has been when we've got to put a backup in the "hit" category.

Look at that list, there are a total of 3 Pro Bowls on that list. 1 for Deltha, 1 for Portis and 1 for Gold as the special teamer. That's ****, regardless of where you're drafting in the 1st round every year. 49 picks over the past 6 drafts and only 3 players have gone to the Pro Bowl 1 time each for the Broncos and 1 was as a special teamer. No repeat performances, though Portis was traded before that could have happened.

[youcandoit1687]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/drafts
all team histories^
lets stop acting like we thot ashley lelie would come in and win rookie of the year or something, he came out with a bad WR class that only produced randle el and deion branch(in the second round both). he has been a decent number 2,not a number 1 which is not what we wanted when we drafted him we knew we had rod for a while longer and that he was the goto guy. and whos to say that lelie wont develop and get there,hes still a nice deep threat but dont talk about him like hes ryan leaf.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/2002

[youcandoit1687]

herc, do that same comparison with other teams i wanna see what it looks like.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

and out of SoCal's list, Denver has: 6 starters and a 1/2 starter (Bell), 2 backups that will play a decent amount (Foxy and Brandon), 2 backups who won't see a lot of snaps (Myers and BVP), and 2 guys coming off of IR (Shoate and Ernster).

13 of those 49 draft picks are still with the team.

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Originally Posted by youcandoit1687

herc, do that same comparison with other teams i wanna see what it looks like.

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams_by_year.html

[youcandoit1687]

2 for polamalu
3 for casey hampton
i cant find anymore


http://www.idatasports.com/nfl/probowl/rosters/

thanks

[youcandoit1687]

its hard to find pro bowl rosters http://www.idatasports.com/nfl/probowl/rosters/ has them back to 2002 buyt i cant find any past that. and remember that with clinton portis, its like we drafted champ bailey who has a bunch of pro bowls

[cabronco]

Hey Mock, can you take Terry Bradshaw off your avatar, it really is annoying. I've seen enough of the clown hyping a movie he's in.

[azbroncfan]

Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller

Sorry, I just can't agree with that. Simply being in the NFL does not make someone a "hit" in the draft pick category. .

I agree there but if you are a couple year starter then you have been a success in my opinion. The whole OL is drafted, Putz was better than advertised, bell could be better or worse for that matter, WR same goes for LB's and secondary look pretty good DL has been wasted picks. Denver could be better but they have done a good job in certain areas.

[doonwise]

It would be very useful if we could get Patswin to break down the Patriots drafting since 2000 just like Socal did with the Broncos. Hell, maybe even *cringe* Bob for the Chiefs or RaidersRock for the Raiders. It would be very interesting to see the blow-by-blow comparison and hit percentage, # of current starters and # of pro bowls for other teams.